Cogswell Interchange

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Mmm, there seem to be a lot of examples of the opposite, though. The Portlands (Maine and Oregon). Providence. Austin. Certainly throwing loads of money at the arts isn't going to create a boomtown, but Halifax can and should spend more on arts, as part of a multifaceted economic strategy. (I hate to reduce pro-arts arguments to pure economy, but if that's what's convincing for skeptics, so be it.)

I think it is somewhat true though, that heritage starts to be valued when there's more business activity--it attracts a better, more sophisticated breed of developer, if nothing else.

Well, that's exactly my point. Arts have to be consumed and people that have appreciation for art, lets be honest, aren't your average person. This is why I think general wealth translates into the art scene that exists.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Khyber feels like a clubhouse.

Absolutely. HRM gives significant funding to this and one gets the impression it is done simply to justify the ownership/tenancy situation of this otherwise unusable heritage building. Most people in the city who are paying the tab get zero benefit and it is very much a closed shop. This is a perfect example of a huge waste of public funds.

[Waye Mason]

The benchmarking that is being suggested for arts funding does not compare Halifax to Toronto, it compares Halifax to St John's, Waterloo, Hamilton, Regina, other medium size cities. It is not the $25.00 per capita spending that has been suggested for Toronto!

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Absolutely. HRM gives significant funding to this and one gets the impression it is done simply to justify the ownership/tenancy situation of this otherwise unusable heritage building. Most people in the city who are paying the tab get zero benefit and it is very much a closed shop. This is a perfect example of a huge waste of public funds.

I think what I already said about the facility being an incubator for artists who earn national attention already disproves that, but what on Earth would you to believe that the building is "otherwise unusable." Obviously it's quite usable as a performance space and office, as proven by the fact that it's, you know, used as such.

[Hali87]

I've been to some cool events at the Khyber. Maybe they just need to advertise a little better, although the few times that I have gone it was packed to the point that getting around the building was tricky.

[W.Sobchak]

So Waye, what does the time table look like for the removal? I'm aware that it will have to be open for the demo, but when can we expect to see "sledge to half-baked idea"?

I've seen a few of the plans for the "after", but most seem to not really address the return of a functioning grid, and land usage. What kind of zoning and urban strengthening, (such as the development of important corners, like what Cogswell would end at in DT). What sorta of plan is in place for public space too?

[essaysmith]

Cogswell roundabout downtown, oh yeah!

[worldlyhaligonian]

I think there needs to be tall buildings and plazas on the site. May a galleria somewhere given Halifax's wet nature.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think there needs to be tall buildings and plazas on the site. May a galleria somewhere given Halifax's wet nature.

I agree there should be tall buildings and let's not call 30 stories tall. How about 50 60 stories, se we get some density in the area.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I agree there should be tall buildings and let's not call 30 stories tall. How about 50 60 stories, se we get some density in the area.

Yeah, but the important thing with rebuilding the Cogswell area won't be to put up a handful of big-🞵🞵🞵 towers that look cool from a distance—it'll be building a great new neighbourhood. That might involve tall buildings or it might not, but the worst thing would be for the Cogswell discussion to turn into an argument largely about height. (Which it probably will, argh.)

HRM planner Peter Bigelow said on CBC Mainstreet's series on Cogswell that a big issue for him is "coarse-grained" vs "fine-grained" urbanity—i.e., do we throw up some buildings with huge footprints and pack some density into the area, or do we create varied, interesting street frontages full of small-ish, downtown-style storefronts, parks, and other entry points, to create a real neighbourhood?

The thing is, we can do BOTH, but I really dread that this is just gonna be people on one side going "Yeah, build a big-🞵🞵🞵 skyscraper" and people on another side saying, "No, don't." (For an example of how to do this right, look to Toronto's St. Lawrence neighbourhood, built in the 70s. For an example of how to do it wrong, look to Toronto's CityPlace neighbourhood, built in the last few years. Both are dense and involve high-rises, but one is successful, from an urbanist perspective, and one is a disaster.)

[ILoveHalifax]

[Quote: HRM planner Peter Bigelow said on CBC Mainstreet's series on Cogswell that a big issue for him is "coarse-grained" vs "fine-grained" urbanity—i.e., do we throw up some buildings with huge footprints and pack some density into the area, or do we create varied, interesting street frontages full of small-ish, downtown-style storefronts, parks, and other entry points, to create a real neighbourhood?]

We already have streets with smallish downtown-style storefronts and they are all empty.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

[Quote: HRM planner Peter Bigelow said on CBC Mainstreet's series on Cogswell that a big issue for him is "coarse-grained" vs "fine-grained" urbanity—i.e., do we throw up some buildings with huge footprints and pack some density into the area, or do we create varied, interesting street frontages full of small-ish, downtown-style storefronts, parks, and other entry points, to create a real neighbourhood?]

We already have streets with smallish downtown-style storefronts and they are all empty.

We also built course grained stuff like Scotia Square which is clearly a failure. Compare this with Trilliim who's streets scape is vibrant.

Timing is years and years. I think we can see the overpass come down in the next 3-4 years, total build out 10-15? But this kind of thing never happens if we don't get started.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

We also built course grained stuff like Scotia Square which is clearly a failure. Compare this with Trilliim who's streets scape is vibrant.

Timing is years and years. I think we can see the overpass come down in the next 3-4 years, total build out 10-15? But this kind of thing never happens if we don't get started.

I'll reserve judgment on the vibrancy of Trillium. I suspect that there will be several empty stores there as well in a few years.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

We already have streets with smallish downtown-style storefronts and they are all empty.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/116470-spring-garden-lease-rates-fifth-highest-in-canada

Barrington meanwhile is finally getting some substantial investment. This is a strange time to be so negative about the fortunes of the downtown area.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yeah, but the important thing with rebuilding the Cogswell area won't be to put up a handful of big-🞵🞵🞵 towers that look cool from a distance—it'll be building a great new neighbourhood.

Fine- vs. coarse-grained and height are two completely separate issues. If you go to New York you can find 50 storey buildings with small footprints and a great street presence. Aside from shadow effects they are equivalent to short buildings. In Halifax there could be great 20 and 30 storey buildings (and conversely there are a bunch of crappy short buildings like the Trade Mart), and actually I think the downtown will get a lot more mileage out of this land with some highrises. The important thing, as you've pointed out, is to have variety and lots of connections and points of interest at street level.

I think it's entirely possible that Cogswell could be trapped in a holding pattern for many years or decades, with council continually putting in the minimal amount of cash to keep the thing from collapsing. It would be great to see some creative, more elaborate plans for this area, but the first steps of dismantling the interchange should be pushed forward ASAP. Even a best-case scenario will take years; plenty of time to have a debate about what should go there.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

We already have streets with smallish downtown-style storefronts and they are all empty.

A. No they're not all empty. See: Quinpool, Spring Garden, Young Avenue, Argyle, Portland and Ochterloney in Dartmouth, and yes, increasingly, Barrington.

B. Also see: Almost every single successfully revitalized downtown district in North America. Places that look like Barrington Street, by and large, are doing a lot better than places like Scotia Square, and this is even reflected in the way that new, large-scale, brownfield communities (like Toronto's Portlands district, or Calgary's new condo district in Bridgeland, among many other examples) are being built.

C. Just to reiterate, I'm not making an argument against height. Height can be good. Height can be great. But height and density, by themselves, are not enough to make great cities. They have to be combined with good planning and place-making, which is about a whole lot of other factors.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yeah, but the important thing with rebuilding the Cogswell area won't be to put up a handful of big-🞵🞵🞵 towers that look cool from a distance—it'll be building a great new neighbourhood. That might involve tall buildings or it might not, but the worst thing would be for the Cogswell discussion to turn into an argument largely about height. (Which it probably will, argh.)

HRM planner Peter Bigelow said on CBC Mainstreet's series on Cogswell that a big issue for him is "coarse-grained" vs "fine-grained" urbanity—i.e., do we throw up some buildings with huge footprints and pack some density into the area, or do we create varied, interesting street frontages full of small-ish, downtown-style storefronts, parks, and other entry points, to create a real neighbourhood?

The thing is, we can do BOTH, but I really dread that this is just gonna be people on one side going "Yeah, build a big-🞵🞵🞵 skyscraper" and people on another side saying, "No, don't." (For an example of how to do this right, look to Toronto's St. Lawrence neighbourhood, built in the 70s. For an example of how to do it wrong, look to Toronto's CityPlace neighbourhood, built in the last few years. Both are dense and involve high-rises, but one is successful, from an urbanist perspective, and one is a disaster.)

HRM_by_Design has set height limits for the Cogswell area that are the ramparts maximum. So why is there a discussion about building parks and smallish downtown-style storefronts in this area? Shouldn't such a neighbourhood be proposed for the Cornwallis Park area where there are ridiculous 10 - 13 meter limits?

In any case, even once the Cogswell Interchange is torn down, it will only free up a few areas. So where is all the land for parks?

In spite of all the talk about urban sprawl, people still talk about low density in what should be a high density area. Is the aim to keep Halifax small or have it grow into a decent size city? Keeping it small means more people moving to Ontario, Alberta and now Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

A. No they're not all empty. See: Quinpool, Spring Garden, Young Avenue, Argyle, Portland and Ochterloney in Dartmouth, and yes, increasingly, Barrington.

It is time for some people to take a walk up and down some of these streets.
Quinpool not doing bad. I cannot think of a lot of empty stores. Spring Garden has lots of empty stores in places like Park Lane, Dresden Row, Doyle, a few right on SGR right now. Young Street, I'm sure you mean is very suburban and mainly accessed by car. Argyle is mainly bars but not much else. Portland and Ochterloney not doing very good. Some pretty shabby stores just hanging on. Barrington has a long way to go again with many just hanging on by a thread. The only reason why it is not all empty is because some buildings are closed up awaiting demolition or construction. They were not occupied when they last could have been. Certainly lets not call it a successful retail street. Not a real great picture when you add Historic Properties and Granville and Barrington Place Shops.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

HRM_by_Design has set height limits for the Cogswell area that are the ramparts maximum. So why is there a discussion about building parks and smallish downtown-style storefronts in this area?

Tall buildings can have small storefronts. Take a stroll by the Empire State Building some day. NYC, in fact, is looking at legislation to shrink the size of storefronts in their new high-rises, because developers have been building too many super-blocks without successful street interaction.

Anyway, we can quibble about what streets in Halifax are successful and which aren't. I think the ones I cited are all decent and becoming healthier. My overall point is that mixed-use, fine-grained urban neighbourhoods are better than the alternative. Is anyone really arguing otherwise? Urban neighbourhoods need to be dense, but density does not magically create urbanity. Especially if other factors aren't present, like mixed uses, a pedestrian-friendly environment, and a mixture of building types and ages.

This is exactly what I fear the Cogswell discussion will turn into—a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 match between a tiny cabal of anti-development obstructionists on one hand, and on the other, skyscraper fetishists with uncritical support for anything as long as it's tall. Let's have a better discussion.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Let's have a better discussion.

I am cautiously optimistic. Had the interchange been torn down in 1998, it would almost certainly have been a disaster.

Even if Cogswell ends up being the HbD street pattern with a bunch of highrises and some Nova Centre-style modifications after the fact it will be pretty good, and a tremendous improvement over what's there now.

If the plans were a bit more ambitious and included some integration with transit (rail?), maybe some traffic put underground, and some good outdoor public space it could be really great. What downtown needs most is a bunch of new residents and improved transit (improved access in general, but transit is easier than cars).