General Updates and News

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

...
In any case, I stand by my assertion that it would be very tough to organize an anti-demolition rally on this forum even if there were a proposal to demolish the VIA Station, which I wouldn't want either. How many on this forum were opposed to the Nova Centre? Most on this forum were opposed to the groups trying to stop the Nova Centre (and I cheer all the ones who did oppose these groups).

You're comparing apples to oranges. Being in favour of building a significant piece of city infrastructure on an empty lot does not equate to being in favour of demolishing a heritage building.

[haligonia]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

You're comparing apples to oranges. Being in favour of building a significant piece of city infrastructure on an empty lot does not equate to being in favour of demolishing a heritage building.

I agree. With all due respect Fenwick, I think you need to open your eyes and start thinking a bit more critically about the issue at hand. All heritage preservation isn't necessarily bad and all new development isn't necessarily good.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I agree with what you have stated, I just don't think that there would be a big turnout for an anti-demolition rally to save the VIA Station (from this forum). Perhaps university students would go?

If there were a proposal to demolish the Province House or Citadel Hill then I would attend an anti-demolition rally . After all, the VIA Station is only 80 years old - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax,_Nova_Scotia_railway_station. I think that there is more heritage associated with the old Halifax Forum but I doubt that people would turn out to save it from demolition.

Oh, I don't mean a literal rally--I meant "rally" in the abstract, like contact local councillors, petition, propose alternatives to developer, etc. Make the displeasure known generally. Although, if someone were to (hypothetically) propose demolishing it, and someone else (hypothetically) organized an actual protest, I might go. God, that sounds apathetic. I'm just not a very protest-y person. Anyway, the station is literally attached to the hotel, and I don't really foresee a time when rail service stops altogether, so I think there are more pressing heritage matters to be concerned about.

As far as what Fenwick said, ditto to Phalanx's response. I'm not really pro- or anti-development so much as pro-city building. Depending on the site in question, sometimes that means demolition and new construction, sometimes that means leaving as-is, and sometimes that means adaptive re-use of what's already there.

The latter has become widely accepted by planners, though convincing developers of its wisdom can often be an uphill battle. It sometimes costs more, but it usually results in extremely desirable structures. Look at the AGNS, or the NS Power building renovation, or the Wychwood Barns in Toronto, or any church/factory loft conversion you can name. People love that stuff and it makes cities subtly but tangibly more desirable. And that's good for the economy, and everything else.

[kph06]

Two from today of the Arthur Street rebuild:

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Every change that comes along in this city seems to have to meet the approval of Phil Pacey.

That is largely a media creation. The media are naturally lazy and none too smart, so when a figure like Pacey comes along who is always available to decry any proposed development they are attracted like ants at a picnic. His ego has been inflated as a result but in reality he has very little influence.

He proudly presents himself as the great saviour of the city dating back to when he and company stopped the demolition of the waterfront and Harbour Drive, and the Arm bridge.

We have a city now that has stagnated over the decades with very little downtown development. I am not advocationg that we should have taken the alternative (Harbour Drive, etc) but we really have no idea what the city might look like today had we taken that approach. We could be a vibrant city of 650,000 population with lots of good paying jobs. We will never know.
However, as much as we have a great city with a few problems what we have is not working. Barrington, Granville and Hollis have practically no retail and are lined with empty buildings and storefronts. Scotia Square is a small remnant of what it once was. Granville Mall, Historic Properties and Maritime Center are mainly empty. Those business' that do survive seem to hang on until hope runs out. Very few people live downtown, even less shop downtown.

We have a few office towers and a street or two of bars and a boardwalk used mainly for a few months in the summer.

Yes, I am excited about the new construction. It will take more than these new developments to really change downtown because without people they will be empty storefronts in a few years. We are not going to get any kind of density in renovated three story buildings.

We need a huge amount of imagination to make Halifax a great city.

I posted something similar a while back. My main difference of opinion is that I am less sure that Harbour Drive would have been a bad thing. I am among the minority who are unimpressed with what our waterfront has become, a tacky, touristy ripoff that attracts a few tourists a few months of the year and is largely deserted otherwise. Who can say what we would have there now if it had been built. The city could well have gone in a far more prosperous direction without the stasis that the heritage groups have caused over the years. We have a long way to go to reach our potential.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That is largely a media creation. The media are naturally lazy and none too smart, so when a figure like Pacey comes along who is always available to decry any proposed development they are attracted like ants at a picnic. His ego has been inflated as a result but in reality he has very little influence.

Yeah, I think people assume too much from reading Herald articles. Pacey seems more like a source of easy content than anything else.

I partly agree about the waterfront. I wonder why people in Halifax aren't more upset that there has only been, as far as I know, 1 major WDC-led development over the past 15 years (Bishop's Landing). Many people in Bedford questioned the slow pace of development there too -- that is a town that has been growing like a weed and again they get a couple of waterfront condos every 10 years.

The boardwalk and tourist huts are fine but they do not make a neighbourhood. Hopefully with the changes at the WDC we will see faster tangible progress. The website is full of interesting looking plans but they've been churning these out for years and few of them are implemented.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by scooby074

I think they should hold off on any investments until they start to gain support through the week.

I don't think it's going to be viable 7 days a week in its current location for quite some time. It's not "on the way" anywhere. Meaning, it isn't convenient enough to stop by on the way home from work. That could be just my particular shopping habits, but I don't go to the market unless it's Saturday, and I make a trip JUST to go.

I've been twice during the week, and it was a ghost town.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I don't think it's going to be viable 7 days a week in its current location for quite some time. It's not "on the way" anywhere. Meaning, it isn't convenient enough to stop by on the way home from work. That could be just my particular shopping habits, but I don't go to the market unless it's Saturday, and I make a trip JUST to go.

I've been twice during the week, and it was a ghost town.

They made just about every mistake you could make in retail development. Bad location, inadequate parking, no complementary development nearby, poor signage, bad interior layout. It is going to take a miracle for that to become a destination on its own.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by bluenoser

Barrington Street height limit increase considered

Proposal will affect Westin Nova Scotian, Via Rail and Atlantic Superstore

CBC News
Posted: Mar 15, 2013 9:41 AM AT
Last Updated: Mar 15, 2013 12:00 PM AT


This lot on the corner of South and Hollis streets has been vacant since a fire two years ago. (CBC)

The Halifax Regional Municipality is considering increasing the height limit for several properties at the south end of Barrington Street, including a lot that has been vacant since a fire two years ago.

Although the current height restriction on the site is 45 feet or approximately 13.7 metres, planners with the municipality want to change that to nearly 22 metres — approximately seven storeys.

Waye Mason, the councillor for Peninsula South Downtown, said the lower height restriction was kept in place while new rules were developed for the Barrington Street Heritage Conservation District near the street's south end.

But some historical buildings at the corner of South and Hollis streets had to be demolished after faulty wiring sparked a fire two years ago — the lot has been vacant since.

Mason said he doesn't think the previous height restrictions need to be in place for a vacant lot.

...

Phil Pacey, of the Heritage Trust of Nova Scotia, said the proposal alarms him.

...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/03/15/ns-barrington-height-limit.html

------

I wonder if Phil feels another parking lot better complements the train station and rounds out Cornwallis Park?

I think Phil Pacey has made this issue sound like a threat of demolishing the VIA Train Station. But in reality it is a matter of re-considering the height limits within this area and setting limits that are reasonable.

I did the following sketch of the current HRM_by_Design post-bonus height limits on a Google map screen capture. Some of these height limits are unrelated to heritage protection and don't even make sense.



For example, why is the Westin Hotel located within a 10.668 meter height limit? Why is the Atlantic Superstore within this height limit? If the goal is to protect the VIA Station then why not just have a special height limit for that particular area of the map?

I think that most people will think that I must have sketched the height limits on the Google Map incorrectly. Please double check this section of the HRM_by_Design bonus-height limit map below and let me know if there is an error in my sketch (I checked it several times).

(source: close-up of Map 5 in this document - http://www.halifax.ca/capitaldistrict/documents/DHLUBandDesignManual.pdf )

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I don't think it's going to be viable 7 days a week in its current location for quite some time. It's not "on the way" anywhere. Meaning, it isn't convenient enough to stop by on the way home from work. That could be just my particular shopping habits, but I don't go to the market unless it's Saturday, and I make a trip JUST to go.

I've been twice during the week, and it was a ghost town.

I agree 100%. As I said it is out of the way..

Could that "several" hundred thousand be used to address this in some way? I think that would be a better use than installing garage doors (etc.)

Maybe advertising. Maybe more buses running past the doors? Maybe a dock for the new water taxi to Kings Wharf? Maybe a water taxi from Bedford or by the Casino? I dont know what the solution is, but garage doors and new stairways aren't it. We need bodies in there buying groceries. No buyers=no vendors, no vendors=no buyers. A chicken and the egg situation.

As to the location, I think its great to embrace the waterfront, but one has to wonder, was this facility built for Haligonians to get their daily groceries or eye candy for waterfront tourists and cruise ship passengers?

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by scooby074

...

Could that "several" hundred thousand be used to address this in some way? I think that would be a better use than installing garage doors (etc.)

...

I think the only ways that the market itself can address the terrible location would be to either wait until there is more development around it, canvas the city aggressively to improve vehicular and transit access, and fight for adding residential nearby; or move.

Originally Posted by scooby074

...
Maybe advertising. Maybe more buses running past the doors? Maybe a dock for the new water taxi to Kings Wharf? Maybe a water taxi from Bedford or by the Casino? I dont know what the solution is, but garage doors and new stairways aren't it. We need bodies in there buying groceries. No buyers=no vendors, no vendors=no buyers. A chicken and the egg situation....

I would say that advertising wouldn't make much of a difference. I would say that most people know that it is there, and I don't know what could be done to convince potential shoppers that it's actually convenient.

Busses and water taxi could help, but all the market itself can do is ask for that stuff. If I lived at Kings Wharf, I'd probably shop at the market on the Dartmouth side.

Garage doors and stairways won't help the location. But they could go a long way toward making it less aggravating once a person has committed to driving there, finding a parking spot, and entering.

Originally Posted by scooby074

As to the location, I think its great to embrace the waterfront, but one has to wonder, was this facility built for Haligonians to get their daily groceries or eye candy for waterfront tourists and cruise ship passengers?

I vote for built as eye candy.

[Keith P.]

The entire thing was a good idea that was terribly mismanaged from the start. For example, the justification for spending the $10 million or so on a new facility was that it would be open 7 days a week. Everybody loved that idea. But apparently nobody bothered to ask the vendors since they only want to be there one day a week like it always used to be. Then once it opened a bunch of vendors stayed at the old location because of some sort of dispute with the management. So you couldn't even get agreement on that and as a result you have both competition down the street and a diluted product to offer at the new facility. Then of course you have the design problems that have plagued it from the start. God knows how this is going to turn out now that the Port Authority has taken it over but I am surely glad I didn't invest my money here.

[someone123]

The Granville Island market is open 7 days a week in Vancouver, but it is mostly dedicated retail outlets reselling products. It is basically like a Pete's. It's substantially quieter during the week and is a mad house on weekends when tourists show up mostly to buy prepared foods and crafts/jewellery, etc. If you are a local, you learn not to go there on the weekend.

The "real" farmers' markets in Vancouver are places like the Trout Lake market and I think those are only open on Saturdays. That is where you get the actual farmers setting up booths and selling their own products. It is a more utilitarian outdoor setup with lots of parking, space for trucks, and temporary booths. They operate an outside market by Nat Bailey Stadium even in the winter months here.

I get the feeling the Halifax market is trying to be at least 2 different things, and is trying to appeal to different types of consumers who have different needs. Cruise ship passengers for example are not going to buy 4 kilos of blueberries or a chicken. They will buy ready-to-eat food or gift items like jewellery and alcohol. I won't be surprised if the seaport market shifts toward being more of a Granville Island with a somewhat separate solution for the farmers.

[halifaxboyns]

I don't think the farmers market was that bad; but it's had problems. Anything new does - so I'm willing to cut them some slack. But I do agree that the City and the market could've worked together better to facilitate more people getting to it via public transit. I think that part came after, with the route 8 and that during market hours it could run a bit more to help promote the market part.

That said - if we ever get a streetcar network or an LRT network - my hope would be that the market/train station would be a major stop. For example: If we had both an LRT (similar to Vancouver or Calgary) and then a streetcar network my hope would be that the train station would be a principle stop for the LRT (say going across the harbour with a future 3rd harbour connection to Woodside/Penhorn and the Portland Corridor). Then the surface streetcar network could be coming out of downtown via Hollis, loop around the station down Barrington and under the tracks and back inbound to downtown via Lower Water and behind the train station right by the market.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

If we had both an LRT (similar to Vancouver or Calgary) and then a streetcar network my hope would be that the train station would be a principle stop for the LRT (say going across the harbour with a future 3rd harbour connection to Woodside/Penhorn and the Portland Corridor). Then the surface streetcar network could be coming out of downtown via Hollis, loop around the station down Barrington and under the tracks and back inbound to downtown via Lower Water and behind the train station right by the market.

And in mentioning a 3rd harbour crossing, that has prompted my curiousity about when the public will get an update. The last series of documents pertaining to HRM's traffic congestion speculated that a third crossing would be needed by 2016, if I remember correctly.

Tick, tock...

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

And in mentioning a 3rd harbour crossing, that has prompted my curiousity about when the public will get an update. The last series of documents pertaining to HRM's traffic congestion speculated that a third crossing would be needed by 2016, if I remember correctly.

Tick, tock...

Your guess is as good as mine. The last thing I recall seeing that went to Regional Council was when Uteck was still on council as the South End Councillor and it was 2 potential options - bridge or tunnel. It's been posted before and I'm sure I could find it if I go digging - but Uteck freaked and had it taken off the agenda. All that staff was asking for was direction on when the time came - what option was preferred. But as I recall, the tunnel/bridge options did not incorporate any potential for an LRT.

I'm suggesting that as the time ticks down to the need, we need to take the opportunity to incorporate it so that even if we don't build it as the crossing comes on line, if it should say get funding 5 years down the road, we can do it. Rather than not incorporate something and then realize 5 years down the road - oops we probably should've done that!

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Your guess is as good as mine. The last thing I recall seeing that went to Regional Council was when Uteck was still on council as the South End Councillor and it was 2 potential options - bridge or tunnel. It's been posted before and I'm sure I could find it if I go digging - but Uteck freaked and had it taken off the agenda. All that staff was asking for was direction on when the time came - what option was preferred. But as I recall, the tunnel/bridge options did not incorporate any potential for an LRT.

I'm reminded of Toronto's early 20th-century commissioner of public works, R.C. Harris. In 1919 he oversaw the building of the Prince Edward Viaduct to span the east and west sides of the Don River. Even though there were no plans for a subway (Toronto's first subway line didn't open until 1954) he insisted that the bridge be built with capacity for a subway track.

It took almost 50 more years for the Bloor-Danforth subway line to open in 1966, but without Harris' insistence on spending a little extra money at the time, creating an east-west link would've been enormously more expensive, and might not have happened, at least not when it did. Harris is a hero of Canadian civic infrastructure, for that and a whole bunch of other projects (including a palatial late Victorian sanitation facility in Toronto's east end.) If he'd been around through the latter half of the century, Toronto might not be in half the transit pickle it's in today.

Anyway, the Viaduct is a cautionary infrastructure tale: Build the next harbour crossing with capacity for an LRT, whether we use it at the time or not. Otherwise, it'll be nothing but buses across the harbour for the rest of our lives, and any rail we do build will be routed all the way around Bedford Basin.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Otherwise, it'll be nothing but buses across the harbour for the rest of our lives, and any rail we do build will be routed all the way around Bedford Basin.

Holy nightmare...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Your guess is as good as mine. The last thing I recall seeing that went to Regional Council was when Uteck was still on council as the South End Councillor and it was 2 potential options - bridge or tunnel. It's been posted before and I'm sure I could find it if I go digging - but Uteck freaked and had it taken off the agenda. All that staff was asking for was direction on when the time came - what option was preferred. But as I recall, the tunnel/bridge options did not incorporate any potential for an LRT.

I'm suggesting that as the time ticks down to the need, we need to take the opportunity to incorporate it so that even if we don't build it as the crossing comes on line, if it should say get funding 5 years down the road, we can do it. Rather than not incorporate something and then realize 5 years down the road - oops we probably should've done that!

I agree. Given the city's current rate of growth, I don't believe we'll have to wait much longer before moans for a third crossing begin attracting more media attention.

A third crossing isn't going to cheap; I wonder if it'll be prioritised above a stadium? I realise it's common for a city to have numerous large projects 'on the go' simultaneously, but I will reiterate my lack of faith in our municipal and provincial politics to work together to get numerous projects done -- or, even one project done in a timely manner. I wouldn't be surprised if 2016 were to come and pass without the city creating a plan for another harbour connection.

It's moments like this when I wish the federal government had a plan (and prepared financing) for vital infrastructure that cities need. There does seem to be ignorance, on the part of HRM council, about the benefits of numerous modes of public transit that can be brought to a city's economy, even though other Canadian cities fully realise these benefits...

[someone123]

I am not sure what projections they used for the 2016 third crossing figure, but it's worth noting that HRM's assumptions about growth rates in Halifax have been way too conservative. I think the city is now nearing the "max" population it was expected to have by 2020 or so. And of course it's already probably too late for 2016 because a bridge takes several years to plan and build.

It would be interesting to see what LRT would add to the cost of a third crossing. My impression is that for Toronto-style heavy rail subways you have to build in a lot of extra capacity, but that LRT and streetcars aren't much different from diesel buses.

I've heard that the Macdonald bridge can't handle the weight of heavy trains, but LRT in place of car lanes might work. The car capacity would be diminished but there would be the new 3rd crossing and the MacKay.

I also think a Northwest Arm bridge makes a ton of sense to build. It would make even more sense with a third crossing.