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  #2861  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:19 PM
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The warm temps kill the inversion, but as summer moves in, so does good ol' plain pollution.
     
     
  #2862  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:19 PM
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"Utah Republicans" are actually extraordinary liberal when it comes to regulating alcohol. The government telling us how to live our lives, telling us what is is good for us, and putting ridiculousness regulations on business and and people... Is not what conservatives stand for at all... But then again the Republican Party is at least half as hypocritical as the democrat party... So it's no surprise.. I think both party's need to die and am now in support of Libritarians like Rand Paul.
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  #2863  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:22 PM
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I'm with Wasatch on this: There isn't too much more we can do about the air quality among the Wasatch Front, that hasn't been done. We have no burn days, should we have no drive days? When I was a young kid we lived in Orem before we moved to St. George. I remember my parents split a load of coal with some of our neighbors. We burned coal all winter long. Not legal anymore. The winters along the Wasatch Front used to be a lot worse than they are now. Though there was poor air quality this year, please remember that this year was an aberration, not the norm.
I'm not advocating against better air. I'm just trying to remind some of you that again, the sky is not falling.
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  #2864  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:24 PM
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^^^ I think the reason people support action is because regardless of the natural inversion, our population is growing rapidly and it will get worse just as rapidly if we maintain the status quo.
     
     
  #2865  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:30 PM
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I'm all for building a nuclear power plant in the west desert. We could also eliminate taxes for electric/ natural gas vehicles and drastically reduce them for vehicles that get 40-50 MPG..... Then we could raise taxes an low MPG vehicles that are not work related.


We could also set up public funding to help move he refineries out to the west desert and set up rail infrastructure as needed.
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  #2866  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek1978 View Post
I'm with Wasatch on this: There isn't too much more we can do about the air quality among the Wasatch Front, that hasn't been done. We have no burn days, should we have no drive days? When I was a young kid we lived in Orem before we moved to St. George. I remember my parents split a load of coal with some of our neighbors. We burned coal all winter long. Not legal anymore. The winters along the Wasatch Front used to be a lot worse than they are now. Though there was poor air quality this year, please remember that this year was an aberration, not the norm.
I'm not advocating against better air. I'm just trying to remind some of you that again, the sky is not falling.
There are a lot of things we can do but we don't because we live in a free market society that allows for certain things to take place without much consequence. Look at the development we're seeing today - while much of it is improved, a great deal, way too much, in fact, is not. You're still seeing huge areas of the valley, and metro, being overrun by suburban development. So, for every walkable area, there are a hundred subdivisions isolated from commercial, retail and mass-transit. There are absolutely no laws anywhere that say sprawling developments should be curbed. Granted, that isn't a legislature issue, since it's almost entirely left up to the discretion of a city - but don't pretend we've exhausted every measure. We haven't. We've done trivial matters that don't help because we haven't yet fixed the root problem - we're still an auto-centric society. Until that changes, the pollution will only increase as the population increases ... because most those people are moving further and further away from the city center and areas they work. That means more commuting, so, more cars, more traffic, more freeways, more cars, more traffic ... and, subsequently, more pollution.

In 20 years, the air quality in Salt Lake is going to be unbearable because much of our growth continues to go unchecked. We're making minor advancements in walkable neighborhoods built around mass-transit - but that doesn't change the fact most of the new development remains a sprawling mess and relies too heavily on the car.
     
     
  #2867  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 7:45 PM
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I agree with you 100% DMTower. The inversion is a naturally occurring thing, THE POLLUTION IS NOT.

I accept that we live in a place with an inversion every year, however I DO NOT accept that as an excuse to continue to let the amount of pollution, in that inversion, get worse every single year.

Many may not think it will effect our economy in the future, but it will. If our pollution levels during the inversion continue to make international news, people will start to think twice about moving their companies to Utah, and bringing their conventions here. Many people simply won't remember that the bad pollution is a winter thing during the weather inversion. If we annually make world headlines regarding our polluted air, that one of the things people are going to associate SLC and Utah with, polluted unhealthy air.

My girlfriend works for a local news station and has only lived her for a year. She has fallen in love with the state, is an avid skier, I have converted her to a Jazz fan, and she loves SLC, she doesn't know if she can stay after her contract is up, due to the pollution levels during the inversion. She had 3 weeks of respiratory problems this year as a direct result of the pollution, and stated I'd be scared to be pregnant and have little kids during the winter months.

So combine the perception of polluted unhealthy air, and not being able to get a drink. This could drastically hurt our long term economic growth. So, if I am still around SLC in the future, I will place 100% of the blame for never addressing pollution issues on the legislature and those saying, "it's better than it used to be, and there really isn't anything that can be done about it!"
     
     
  #2868  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:18 PM
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On the Inversion: I contend that this year was not an aberration. The inversion is here and awful every year. The only way it was different was that this year was worst than the last, and next year will be worse still, because it is a growing problem.
The point made about the inversion existing by natural causes is moot. We routinely have the worst air quality in the country for months at a time. The pollution levels are hazardous to a point that doctors are discouraging women from getting pregnant during the winter because of potential birth defects. And we're one of the fastest growing cities in the country, so we can completely guarantee that on this trajectory things will get much worse. This REQUIRES action. This is what a government exists for! And yet, not a thing was done, but it's good thing we're making sure that if Billy Joe Redneck doesn't take his meds he can still go to his arsenal and go on a shooting rampage. Good thing we took the time and tax money to show those liberals who's in charge here!

And Ajuio, I would absolutely love to hear in what way Utah Republicans are extraordinary liberal towards alcohol. Please provide some examples. I know there are other quirky liquor laws around the country, and that there are dry counties. But I would love to know if there is another state that controls the sale of all hard liquor, waters down the beer, requires special building codes for restaurants, keeps electronic track of anyone who has entered a bar over a given amount of time, deliberately makes licenses so limited that new business have to fight and wait for years at a time to get one, creates city ordinances that limit bars to very specific areas of the city, and then limits those areas to a certain number per block, and appoints people to a liquor commission who DON'T DRINK AND BELIEVE ANYBODY WHO DOES IS SINNING! If you can name a majority of places that do all that, since our brave leaders are so extraordinarily liberal, then you've made a point. I'll settle for naming a single place that does that and isn't considered a joke of a place to live or visit.
     
     
  #2869  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Just a quick note; The number of bars per block was a SLC ordinance, which was overturned several years ago.
     
     
  #2870  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Either way if we ever get the CC hotel it's still a long ways off. We are yet to know where the site will be, yet to know who the developer will be and yet to know who will fund it or how it will be funded.
Looks like the PAC tower is by far closer and I see that as our very next new skyscraper.
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  #2871  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:39 PM
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...the PAC Tower was closer even before the Legislature voted the CC Hotel down. I'll get on Future Mayor's big orange bus on this one, and hope that the CC Hotel proposal isn't as dead as it may seem right now. Just because the House of Representatives from the entire state voted down the CC Hotel doesn't mean that the city and county can't work together to lure the developers here. There's still hope.
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  #2872  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedikermit View Post
...the PAC Tower was closer even before the Legislature voted the CC Hotel down. I'll get on Future Mayor's big orange bus on this one, and hope that the CC Hotel proposal isn't as dead as it may seem right now. Just because the House of Representatives from the entire state voted down the CC Hotel doesn't mean that the city and county can't work together to lure the developers here. There's still hope.
True, but I was hoping to see the two towers go up around the same time if not maybe a year apart. Very unlikely now with the CC looking more and more like at least five years out while the PAC is next year
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5. "Key Bank Tower" 27-stories 351 FT 1976
     
     
  #2873  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 8:55 PM
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From my understanding is that the parking and convention space was looked at being funded with Salt Lake and county funds for the CC Hotel. This bill would have just gotten the state involved if it had passed. Now that the state has said nope, the city and county can still work out the details on how to get it done. The next step we will hear about it, will be if Salt Lake County will be willing to help or not. Last year the county wasn't willing to take it to vote with the elections going on. Now that its all over, and those that were voted in are in office, we should hear more about it in the next few months.
     
     
  #2874  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 9:01 PM
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I like to think of the CC Hotel like this. Its the City and County paying to expand the Salt Palace and selling the air rights above to have someone build a hotel on top of it.
     
     
  #2875  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Wasatch_One View Post
Guys, I am also disappointed about the CC hotel, the Zion Curtain (I don't drink) but about the air pollution, I am telling you, there isn't much we can do at this point short of eliminating most modern conveniences from Dec 1 - Feb 15, every year.

As you'll notice, we haven't had a bad air day since around Valentines day. It's just the time of the year in relation to the length of the day that translates to warmer temps that kill an inversion.

From here on out, the same weather patterns that create inversions (high pressure settling in over the state) actually now create the great weather like what we've have had this week.

Air was bad here during that time of year even when there was 1/4 the population back in the 50's.

As much as you want to believe we can change it, we can't. It's the physical characteristics of where we live.

Sorry Wasatch One, but I have to call you this, Dude with the red hot rod as your avatar, in regards to this issue.

I understand what you're saying about the natural geography as it pertains to the inversion affect. No offense, but, you're wrong when you say that the amount of inversion pollution is the same as it was before. And, there is definitely some things Utah can do to change it.

There is a ton of stuff that Utah can improve on to clean up the air and to prevent it from getting worse or, to at least, make it less worse with the ever increasing population. Reducing refinery emissions is a big one, but the biggest issue that can be remedied is sprawl! Try reading Peter Calthorpe's book, Urbanism in the Age of Climate Change. The best solution is to curb inefficient land use development. Here are some statistics:


The average American emits 4 times the global average and over twice that of a European. 23 metric tons of greenhouse gas per person in 2005. Europeans averaged 10. Chinese averaged 4.

In the past 50 years, the total miles driven annually in the U.S. increased from 718 bilion to over 3 trillion.

More than half the U.S. population lives in counties with air concentrations exceeding healthy levels established by the EPA.

Vehicle Miles Traveled per 'Household' in 1960 was 11,100 mi/year. In 2005 it was 24,300. That's not all. On top of that the size of the household has diminished. 44% of household had couples with kids in 1950. In 2005 only 23%.
On average, urban dwellers travel less than 8,000 miles/year, versus 30,000 for those who live in the suburbs.

In 1950 23% of the population lived in the suburbs vs. 50% in 2005.

Cars per household in 1960 was 1. In 2005 there are 2.

In 1960, ther were 430,000miles of roads. Federal subsidizing of freeway construction supported suburban expansion to a now 1,009,000 miles of road in 2005.

Between 1977 and 1995, the average amount that we walked per day fell 42 percent while our auto usage increased at three times population growth.

The CDC now directly relates walkable neighborhoods to lower obesity rates. The CDC(center for disease control) now qualifies the U.S. as experiencing an obesity epidemic. Estimates are around 200,000 to 300,000 deaths per year as a result of obesity.

repeat: The average American emits 4 times the global average and over twice that of a European. 23 metric tons of greenhouse gas per person in 2005. Europeans averaged 10. Chinese averaged 4.

If we are to arrest climate change at about 2d Celsius, developed countries must reduce carbon 80% from 1990 levels by 2050. Meanwhile, in the U.S. alone, population is projected to increase 140 million by 2050. That means that by 2050 per capita emissions must be reduced from our current 23 metric tons to [U]2.7 tons[U]. To acheive this each person in 2050 must on average emit only 12% of their current rate.

The typical suburb with 3 cars and an average 21mpg driving 31,000 miles = 237 MBTU's(Million British Thermal units or the energy consumed). The suburb home that has an energy efficient home with three cars = 158. An energy efficient townhome with two cares averaging 30mpg = 79. An energy efficient urban condo with a 30mpg car=47.

A sprawl development emits 21 metric tons of carbon emissions per 'household'. An urban household emits 6 metric tons.



So, to summarize, the trend in the last 50 years has been smaller household size, yet larger home size, and more cars per household, and increased commute travel distance. The result is more pollution, health risks, and more.

One of the biggest reason why I am against sprawl is because it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 the life out of our urban cores. I would rather see more infill, and denser mixed-use residential development. I would love to see downtown Salt Lake City be much more vibrant, but when I see and hear about all the new companies and residential developments srawling out away from downtown, it frustrates me. I would love to see some of these new high-tech companies build in downtown SLC. Many tech comapnies hire young urban professionals, and many of them prefer living in urban areas.

Last edited by Orlando; Mar 15, 2013 at 9:31 PM.
     
     
  #2876  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 9:35 PM
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From my understanding is that the parking and convention space was looked at being funded with Salt Lake and county funds for the CC Hotel. This bill would have just gotten the state involved if it had passed. Now that the state has said nope, the city and county can still work out the details on how to get it done. The next step we will hear about it, will be if Salt Lake County will be willing to help or not. Last year the county wasn't willing to take it to vote with the elections going on. Now that its all over, and those that were voted in are in office, we should hear more about it in the next few months.
Thank you for pointing that out. Nothing on the CC hotel has lagged behind due to this vote. The vote would have simply pushed it forward a bit. So like I said before people, take a couple of deep breaths and back away from the ledge.

As for the PAC tower, we have no idea when it will rise. The PAC will begin construction next year, and part of that construction will be the foundation work for the PAC tower. The PAC tower will be built when they get enough pre-leasing agreements signed.

The point on both these issues, is don't read to much into either one. The CC hotel hasn't been delayed because of the vote and the PAC tower isn't necessarily going to start construction next year.
     
     
  #2877  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2013, 10:33 PM
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Guys, I am also disappointed about the CC hotel, the Zion Curtain (I don't drink) but about the air pollution, I am telling you, there isn't much we can do at this point short of eliminating most modern conveniences from Dec 1 - Feb 15, every year.

As you'll notice, we haven't had a bad air day since around Valentines day. It's just the time of the year in relation to the length of the day that translates to warmer temps that kill an inversion.

From here on out, the same weather patterns that create inversions (high pressure settling in over the state) actually now create the great weather like what we've have had this week.

Air was bad here during that time of year even when there was 1/4 the population back in the 50's.

As much as you want to believe we can change it, we can't. It's the physical characteristics of where we live.
Um, I'm not sure if this is alluding to my post, but if it is, you've missed the point. I was simply complaining that a lot of people in Utah like to get their 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 in a knot about certain things (e.g. inversions, the legislative session), and for some odd reason expect different results even though it's as given as the sun rising in the morning.
     
     
  #2878  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2013, 2:08 AM
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Just so everyone knows, there were 4 options to fund the convention hotel. The first option was what died last night.

There are still 3 options left.

The Convention Hotel is the #1 item for Ben McAdams. He knows that it will bring in more conventions and more business which will help County tax rolls.

The 3 remaining options all don't use tax payer money, it is all tax deferred or remitted but none of it will affect any tax revenue for budgets or tax increases.

I still expect that we will hear more about this with the possibility of an announcement to come relatively soon.

McAdams, knows that without the Convention Hotel, OR will leave as well as any chance of their parent group of moving any larger conventions here which they have said they would with the hotel.

They want to leave Vegas as it doesn't reflect their values and policies. Salt Lake fits and they do want to expand their presence here. They do understand politics and do understand that the more impact they have, the better chance of changing the politics they have as well.
     
     
  #2879  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2013, 1:11 PM
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Thankyou Makid, Steven F., Future Mayor and all those who reminded us of the different mechanisms by which the Convention Hotel might be funded. I think we were so focused on the here and now of the State involvement that we forgot about the other options. Actually, these other option make a little more sense.

Also, I do believe we can put a significant dent in the total amount of Wasatch Front pollution being emitted just by knocking down some of the largest sources of that problem, i.e. autos and factories.

I remember Utah Valley in the 'Pink/Orange Haze Days'. Even when Geneva Steel was still in existance it made a few significant updates. Updates, such as Geneva modenizing several of it's most onerous problems, and large facilities like BYU converting over to natural gas, made a major improvement. The health level of the air, and the visual change was huge. Even now, Kennecott's upcoming change of it's one generator of the four will be comparable to immediately removing ten percent of all Wasatch Front autos from existance.

Recently, I wondered out loud on this forum as to how much of a problem the large school bus fleet was contributing to the mix of toxins. Although, I don't have the exact figures, I'm sure we all agree the problem is a major factor. I was very encouraged to see that the Alpine School District is about to move forward on converting a large portion of it's fleet to CNG, and also construct a major filling station in Saratoga Springs for both the public and district use.

Again, the auto is far and away THE major cause of the problem. The faster we clean up the auto and all antiquated, traditional internal combustion engines, the faster we make large dents in the biggest problem out there.
     
     
  #2880  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2013, 3:26 PM
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The Salt Lake CSA now includes the Provo MSA in addition to the Ogden MSA.

Salt Lake City-Provo-Orem, UT Combined Statistical Area
  • Heber, UT Micropolitan Statistical Area
  • Ogden-Clearfield, UT Metropolitan Statistical Area
  • Provo-Orem, UT Metropolitan Statistical Area
  • Salt Lake City, UT Metropolitan Statistical Area
  • Summit Park, UT Micropolitan Statistical Area

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/bulletins/2013/b13-01.pdf

That will move the Salt Lake CSA from the 29th largest to the 21st largest in America I believe, and should be at 18 largest within the next few years.
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