LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Pink Floyd

Generally speaking, short buildings with no ground-floor retail are just as bad if not worse than surface parking lots.

not sure why you feel that way, since many ppl....women &, even more so, men in particular, who are rushing to and from work....tend not to feel bad about properties they're walking past if they contain no shops, but will feel bad if that same location is unattractive & poorly maintained, or full of many vacant spaces. A perfect example of how retail is a small piece of the puzzle is to look at broadway. Most of its sidewalk space is next to stores, but in spite of that, I have little interest in moseying around there, & actually feel down when I have to deal with that area.

[Valyrian Steel]

Originally Posted by citywatch

not sure why you feel that way, since many ppl....women &, even more so, men in particular, who are rushing to and from work....tend not to feel bad about properties they're walking past if they contain no shops, but will feel bad if that same location is unattractive & poorly maintained, or full of many vacant spaces. A perfect example of how retail is a small piece of the puzzle is to look at broadway. Most of its sidewalk space is next to stores, but in spite of that, I have little interest in moseying around there, & actually feel down when I have to deal with that area.

Obviously no one likes to see vacant spaces or rundown shops, but there should be places to eat, shop, etc. close to home. It's not about what looks good, it's convenience. Keeping retail away from residential buildings encourages people to drive more and stops pedestrian activity.

[blackcat23]

Originally Posted by citywatch

Thanks to you & others for all the update pics. Santa fe is across the street from a school involved in creativity & design, so that sort of leads to something else in the hood that's related to creativity....but regrettably another bit of debbie downer news....which along with stories like the one about the tallest bldg in LA selling for almost a pittance, has been streaming out of dt over the past several days...

You're really nitpicking to find negatives the last couple days, aren't you? lol

I don't think the city should provide MOCA with money, considering we are in the midst of a $200 million budget shortfall. The LAPD and LAFD are facing cutbacks, but Joel Wachs thinks the city should allocate funds to prop up MOCA? Give me a break. I'd be all for it if there was extra money in the city coffers, but these are lean times.

It's funny to me that Eli Broad portrays it as MOCA's "best interest," to not take LACMA's life raft and instead make a less beneficial deal which offers no financial support. Seems like the interest being served here is Broad's ego, since he has a ax to grind with LACMA.

Originally Posted by citywatch

Another reason is that major sections of cities famous for large crowds of ppl walking about, & that are considered very urban friendly, don't have street after street of bldgs full of shops. A perfect example is NYC, where large sections of manhattan contain nothing but apt towers or brownstones, with stores no where to be seen.

As Pink Floyd already pointed out, you can't really compare downtown LA to Manhattan. If Manhattan were it's own city, it would be the 5th most populous in the United States. It has 33 square miles to Downtown's 5 square miles. It's apples and oranges (and we're talking one tiny orange at that).

In other obscure future project news, the LA City Planner's bi-weekly project filings has a "MIXED-USE PROJECT CONSISTING OF RESIDENTIAL AND RETAIL USES," planned for 221 S. Los Angeles Street (right across the street from Ava Little Tokyo). No other details provided.

I think this is next door to where the Budokan Center was supposed to go. Not sure if the property also includes the vacant structure which was a former library. Is this a new proposal, or a revival of an old one?

[202_Cyclist]

Regarding the Ross, I think all of you need to relax. I think Ross is roughly comparable to TJ Maxx. In our area, Friendship Heights is roughly similar to Rodeo Drive, with Tiffany's,Cartier, Louis Vutton, etc... and yes, a TJ Maxx, a lower to mid-scale retail establishment, yet our neighborhood not only is doing okay, it is thriving. There have been nearly a dozen large-scale projects announced in the past few months, construction is beginnning on the Crenshaw line and is presumably underway on Phase II of the Expo Line, and several of you are worried about a Ross store?

[LA/OCman]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Regarding the Ross, I think all of you need to relax. I think Ross is roughly comparable to TJ Maxx. In our area, Friendship Heights is roughly similar to Rodeo Drive, with Tiffany's,Cartier, Louis Vutton, etc... and yes, a TJ Maxx, a lower to mid-scale retail establishment, yet our neighborhood not only is doing okay, it is thriving. There have been nearly a dozen large-scale projects announced in the past few months, construction is beginnning on the Crenshaw line and is presumably underway on Phase II of the Expo Line, and several of you are worried about a Ross store?

I agree. As a part time resident of Orange County, nobody in Laguna Niguel cared that they put in a Ross, BevMo and Loehmans in the same retail center. And for those of you who rarely visit Downtown and are concerned about a few restaurants going under, welcome to reality. In Laguna Beach...Katsuya just closed after less than 2 years. Down PCH, Mosun closed a few years ago and sits vacant near the vacant KFC. Laguna is not worried the sky is falling.

Many good restaurants in DTLA are thriving. Not a table to be found when I ate in Little Tokyo last weekend at the Lazy Ox Canteen. Restaurants come and go. Have you seen any close at LA Live? No! When Tranquility Base closed they were replaced by a sports bar that is still open regardless of the competition like Dillon's, Casey's, the Yard House, ESPN Zone, and Los Angeles Brewing Company. As DT adds around 3,000 new residents a year we will see a lot of changes, some good and some bad. BTW, my experience at Towne was "meh". Yet Panini across 9th seems to do very well (excellent chicken kabobs).

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Pink Floyd

Obviously no one likes to see vacant spaces or rundown shops, but there should be places to eat, shop, etc. close to home. It's not about what looks good, it's convenience. Keeping retail away from residential buildings encourages people to drive more and stops pedestrian activity.

I'll grant you fellas an interest in seeing new places where you can grab a bite to eat, esp quick, but good, in n out type of places. But for any other type of retail....clothing or apparel in particular....you're really stretching things if you believe quite a few sections of dt, esp around where new bldgs like at Hill & Olympic are supposed to go up, can support all the shops you seem to think are necessary in projs now underway or of the future.

Do the greatest urban areas in the US & elsewhere have retailing almost everywhere & anywhere, from one block to the next? Is that the case with NYC, SF, chicago, boston, seattle, portland? I was in montreal several yrs ago, which is a very urbanized setting, & I recall strolling through several hoods where all the bldgs were residential, no shops on the ground level for as far as the eye could see. Same is true of many of the areas around & east of fifth avenue, east of central park in NY.

however, I do know that city govt loves requiring commercial spaces in new devlpt, but not for urban design purposes, & not to make life more convenient for residents. It's cuz retail tenants are more likely to bring in tax revenue....sales taxes aren't going to be created in the way that apts or condos are used.

Originally Posted by blackcat23

I don't think the city should provide MOCA with money, considering we are in the midst of a $200 million budget shortfall. The LAPD and LAFD are facing cutbacks, but Joel Wachs thinks the city should allocate funds to prop up MOCA? Give me a break. I'd be all for it if there was extra money in the city coffers, but these are lean times.

the gist of that article....& many of the other ones that are ....is that the hood, or city, doesn't seem to be able to support what's going on, whether its office bldgs....inc the tallest one in LA.....new restaurants, or an important museum, where ppl with big $$$ & local residents who might visit the museum don't seem to be putting out much of an effort or showing much interest.

The way things are going right now, allow me to be less than confident that the Budokan center....across from the new apt proj at 2nd & LA streets, & possibly right next door to another new proj....will be any more successful than MOCA in getting enough support...enough $$$ from fundraising....from the community.

[alki]

Originally Posted by Easy

Serious. They had a speaker on a tripod out front. You can barely make it out in a couple of pwright1's photos. Not sure if they were mixing up the music selection, but all that I heard when walking by was in Spanish. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Probably shouldn't be..........but I am surprised.

[blackcat23]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

I agree. As a part time resident of Orange County, nobody in Laguna Niguel cared that they put in a Ross, BevMo and Loehmans in the same retail center. And for those of you who rarely visit Downtown and are concerned about a few restaurants going under, welcome to reality. In Laguna Beach...Katsuya just closed after less than 2 years. Down PCH, Mosun closed a few years ago and sits vacant near the vacant KFC. Laguna is not worried the sky is falling.

Many good restaurants in DTLA are thriving. Not a table to be found when I ate in Little Tokyo last weekend at the Lazy Ox Canteen. Restaurants come and go. Have you seen any close at LA Live? No! When Tranquility Base closed they were replaced by a sports bar that is still open regardless of the competition like Dillon's, Casey's, the Yard House, ESPN Zone, and Los Angeles Brewing Company. As DT adds around 3,000 new residents a year we will see a lot of changes, some good and some bad. BTW, my experience at Towne was "meh". Yet Panini across 9th seems to do very well (excellent chicken kabobs).

Someone posted a statistic about the percentage of restaurants that fail a few weeks back. Can't remember what it was or who posted it, but a quick google search indicates that roughly 25% of all restaurants go out of business within their first year. 60% are closed within three years, and 75% within five (so says Cornell).

Basically, there's no point in getting worked up over a restaurant closing here or there. Some will last for decades, others will flame out quickly. You can't expect everything to be a success.

Originally Posted by citywatch

the gist of that article....& many of the other ones that are ....is that the hood, or city, doesn't seem to be able to support what's going on, whether its office bldgs....inc the tallest one in LA.....new restaurants, or an important museum, where ppl with big $$$ & local residents who might visit the museum don't seem to be putting out much of an effort or showing much interest.

The way things are going right now, allow me to be less than confident that the Budokan center....across from the new apt proj at 2nd & LA streets, & possibly right next door to another new proj....will be any more successful than MOCA in getting enough support...enough $$$ from fundraising....from the community.

Even in the midst of a very substantial upswing in construction throughout the neighborhood, you still go out of your way to come up with negatives. You are nothing if not consistent.

There is over $1.5 billion invested in all the projects currently under construction in Downtown Los Angeles (and that's a conservative estimate). If you count the Wilshire Grand, that adds another $1 billion on it's own.

I'm not going to delude myself into thinking there aren't problems for Downtown Los Angeles or the city in general. You can comb through articles and Google street view looking for everything you don't like about Downtown LA, if you really want to. Or you could take a look at the bigger picture.

Of course, people have been saying this stuff to you for years now, so I expect you'll opt for the former rather than the latter.

[BOYCOTT 90210]

Blackcat, just do this:



It will save you time.

[alki]

Originally Posted by Easy

I admit that I know very little about Ross, but based on what I do know I was surprised at all of the semi-positive comments here about its opening on Broadway. I'm sure that it's a step in the right direction, but I am hoping to see more stores open that reflect the changes that downtown has been experiencing demographically in terms of income and economics.

Walking by the Ross and hearing the music and seeing the security, I had no sense that Ross has any optimism about Broadway being "back". My impression was that Ross sees Broadway as the same Broadway that it's been for decades. And that they are probably only there for some unknown political reasons having to do with Huizar.

Ross is a major corporation that has to makes it numbers and it will make those numbers whatever way they think they can do it.......even blaring music outside the store. Sure I find that disappointing......but that's the nature of corporations.

However, I agree with Blackcat, we can't ignore the fact that they are the first major retail operation to invest on Broadway; that they did a good job of restoring a historic bldg that is preserved for future generations; that their operation is an improvement over the swap meet stores on Broadway. I further suspect they made this fairly significant investment now because they see an improving future for the street.......one that will benefit them further down the road.

As for DTLA turning into Rodeo Dr.......I believe if people are hoping for that kind of transformation, they will be disappointed. Successful downtowns typically are a mixture of low, middle and upper income retail. I think that's what makes them interesting. I suspect that will be DTLA's future.

[alki]

Originally Posted by Easy

I mean later this decade. Will most of the retail stores that open on Broadway over the next few years be discount stores? My guess is yes. A new streetcar will not bring back Broadway without some interesting shops that attract more upscale shoppers.

Based on the new stores/restaurant/the Ace Hotel openings, I think the more upscale part of Broadway will be southern Broadway.....with the rest of Broadway more mixed. I think that will make for a very dynamic street.

When I used to walk DTLA, my favorite streets were 7th, Spring and Broadway in that order.

[Valyrian Steel]

Originally Posted by citywatch

I'll grant you fellas an interest in seeing new places where you can grab a bite to eat, esp quick, but good, in n out type of places. But for any other type of retail....clothing or apparel in particular....you're really stretching things if you believe quite a few sections of dt, esp around where new bldgs like at Hill & Olympic are supposed to go up, can support all the shops you seem to think are necessary in projs now underway or of the future.

Why do you think we want taller buildings (uh oh, there's that dirty word, "taller")? Dense development warrants having more retail and better public transportation.

Originally Posted by alki

Ross is a major corporation that has to makes it numbers and it will make those numbers whatever way they think they can do it.......even blaring music outside the store. Sure I find that disappointing......but that's the nature of corporations.

However, I agree with Blackcat, we can't ignore the fact that they are the first major retail operation to invest on Broadway; that they did a good job of restoring a historic bldg that is preserved for future generations; that their operation is an improvement over the swap meet stores on Broadway. I further suspect they made this fairly significant investment now because they see an improving future for the street.......one that will benefit them further down the road.

As for DTLA turning into Rodeo Dr.......I believe if people are hoping for that kind of transformation, they will be disappointed. Successful downtowns typically are a mixture of low, middle and upper income retail. I think that's what makes them interesting. I suspect that will be DTLA's future.

Agreed with all of this.

[alki]

Originally Posted by Pink Floyd

US Bank Tower is being sold to Overseas Union Enterprise Ltd. (OUE) for $367.5 million

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-11...ng-to-be-acquired-for-367-5-million.html

That's disappointing that its only 56% occupied.....even more so because its an iconic bldg.

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

I agree. As a part time resident of Orange County, nobody in Laguna Niguel cared that they put in a Ross, BevMo and Loehmans in the same retail center. And for those of you who rarely visit Downtown and are concerned about a few restaurants going under, welcome to reality. In Laguna Beach...Katsuya just closed after less than 2 years. Down PCH, Mosun closed a few years ago and sits vacant near the vacant KFC. Laguna is not worried the sky is falling.

Many good restaurants in DTLA are thriving. Not a table to be found when I ate in Little Tokyo last weekend at the Lazy Ox Canteen. Restaurants come and go. Have you seen any close at LA Live? No! When Tranquility Base closed they were replaced by a sports bar that is still open regardless of the competition like Dillon's, Casey's, the Yard House, ESPN Zone, and Los Angeles Brewing Company. As DT adds around 3,000 new residents a year we will see a lot of changes, some good and some bad. BTW, my experience at Towne was "meh". Yet Panini across 9th seems to do very well (excellent chicken kabobs).

Absolutely. It's a pretty known fact that the restaurant business is one of the hardest business to own and operate no matter where you are. So it's sad when a place closes but when you have numerous thriving and ever expanding eating options, there really is no reason to act as though it's the end of days.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by alki

That's disappointing that its only 56% occupied.....even more so because its an iconic bldg.

this has a lot more to do with the fact that the building does not have great floor plans and isnt compatible with open spaces as so many of todays tenants request and require. Also, the marketing of the building and its available spaces is horrible to say the least

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by blackcat23

Even in the midst of a very substantial upswing in construction throughout the neighborhood, you still go out of your way to come up with negatives. You are nothing if not consistent.

I went out of my way to come up with a rather widely reported recent story about the sale of the tallest bldg in LA? And I went out of my way to dig up another recent story....also reported by major local media....about how a major company in dt is downsizing & causing even more problems for the already large amt of unused space in the hood?

I went out of my way to come up with 2 reports or comments, back to back, about the closure of Towne & the kitchen table?

however, I do admit that my curiosity about where dt ranked in average income....cuz ppl were talking about ross & the future of broadway....did cause me to look up a list that the LA times published a few yrs ago. Even though I was vaguely familiar with their stats, I had never really looked at it before. I was shocked to see that not only is dt as low on the list as it is or was, but that it was on the....bottom...the rock bottom. I'd never have guessed that before seeing that list. I originally assumed such a low ranking was true of some other hood in LA, perhaps to the east of dt, or south towards Watts.

Of course, people have been saying this stuff to you for years now, so I expect you'll opt for the former rather than the latter.

blackcat, so I guess I'll instead say over & over & over again that new bldgs are cuz they're too short, too small, reflect bad design, won't get a prize from the AIA, don't have stores on the ground level, have stucco instead of granite, cater too much to ppl with cars......& so on & so forth.

[alki]

Originally Posted by citywatch

Do the greatest urban areas in the US & elsewhere have retailing almost everywhere & anywhere, from one block to the next? Is that the case with NYC, SF, chicago, boston, seattle, portland? I was in montreal several yrs ago, which is a very urbanized setting, & I recall strolling through several hoods where all the bldgs were residential, no shops on the ground level for as far as the eye could see. Same is true of many of the areas around & east of fifth avenue, east of central park in NY.

In most successful DTs, retail is encouraged because it generates street traffic. Most office functions don't like first floor offices while retail prefers first floors.....because of foot traffic. In the cities you cite up above, retail is definitely encouraged......many require it in certain areas.

In NYC [Manhattan] typically the Avenues have retail and the Streets are residential. However, when you get in the more urbanized parts like around Bloomingdales on the Upper East Side, or in lower Midtown where Macy's is, the Streets have a lot of retail along with the Avenues.

however, I do know that city govt loves requiring commercial spaces in new devlpt, but not for urban design purposes, & not to make life more convenient for residents. It's cuz retail tenants are more likely to bring in tax revenue....sales taxes aren't going to be created in the way that apts or condos are used.

It is for urban design purposes and to encourage, residents, office workers and tourists to shop. DTLA is definitely on the right track IMO.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Pink Floyd

Why do you think we want taller buildings (uh oh, there's that dirty word, "taller")? Dense development warrants having more retail and better public transportation.

that's why you need to keep an eye on things like this....

Originally Posted by alki

That's disappointing that its only 56% occupied.....even more so because its an iconic bldg.

It's odd cuz some forumers sound like they want to be, or expect others to be, cheerleaders for dt. Yet, again, they'll grumble about new apt bldgs not being taller or nicer, or some new devlpt not being wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Yet they get all hurt & offended when the truly sad aspects of the hood are pointed out.....& not happily or gladly but with alarm.

la/ocman's post does put one thing in perspective about a small aspect of dt, or any hood....meaning the restaurant business. It does help put things in balance, which is welcome.

based on colemonkee's hints, the Kitchen Table closed not cuz of a lack of customers, but due to other problems. Maybe inside fighting....or legal type of problems....also is largely responsible for the closure of the restaurant in the watermark tower. But I would guess that the owners of Figaro on broadway are really having to fight to meet payroll & other expenses. Since they're so unique in the wilds of broadway....so important to efforts to revive that street....if they can't make a go of it, that will be very different from the high failure rate of the typical new restaurant in LA or anywhere else.

[alki]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

this has a lot more to do with the fact that the building does not have great floor plans and isnt compatible with open spaces as so many of todays tenants request and require. Also, the marketing of the building and its available spaces is horrible to say the least

I suspect its more the latter. I know Maguire and the debt he accumulated were a drag on the company and his properties languished for a long time even after he left but still......the tallest bldg in a market tends to command a certain prestige and typically stays full. That's why I was surprised at the occupancy figure. I hope the new owners do right by the bldg.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by alki

In most successful DTs, retail is encouraged because it generates street traffic. Most office functions don't like first floor offices while retail prefers first floors.....because of foot traffic.

but I think some of the biggest supporters of having more retail in dtla are surprisingly naive about economics 101. They seem to fall for the notion that if you build it, they will come. I wish. Either that or they exaggerate the positive impact that stores will have on making the hood much nicer in general.

I mentioned it before, but when I was in dt last yr with a long time friend who was visiting from the bay area, what struck her negatively....&, in turn, put kind of a damper on my visit with her to dtla....wasn't the lack of shops on street A, B or C. No, what put a damper on things were all the areas that were grubby, empty or unattractive. I won't even say anything about the homeless ppl we did notice wandering here & there.

So I'm not going to complain about some new proj not being good enough to earn a Pritzker prize, or the devlpr having the gall to not put stores in every sq inch of a new bldg's ground floor, when there are far bigger issues to attend to.