The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[JHikka]

I would hold off on any talk of Saint John going through a boom until we see completed projects and better real estate forecasts.

[kwajo]

Same here, especially since things like the fertilizer plant are still iffy enough that they may not even happen (a familiar storyline around here).

[JHikka]

In other news, Mayor Norton is still pushing for a Fourplex on Long Wharf, which the TJ wants to keep referring to as an Ice Palace. That is a very Soviet name for them to pick.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

In other news, Mayor Norton is still pushing for a Fourplex on Long Wharf, which the TJ wants to keep referring to as an Ice Palace. That is a very Soviet name for them to pick.

I don't think a 4-plex at Long Wharf is necessarily a bad thing, it just has to be very very well done, and probably constructed as part of a larger mixed use development of some form.

I really like the 4-Ice Centre in Moncton, but a comparable facility in SJ at Long Wharf would have to be of much higher quality and construction, just given the prominence of the downtown location. You would want to have it done right!!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't think a 4-plex at Long Wharf is necessarily a bad thing, it just has to be very very well done, and probably constructed as part of a larger mixed use development of some form.

I really like the 4-Ice Centre in Moncton, but a comparable facility in SJ at Long Wharf would have to be of much higher quality and construction, just given the prominence of the downtown location. You would want to have it done right!!

That's exactly what Mayor Norton was saying when interviewed. He stated that it can't just be an aluminum box and has to accommodate more than just hockey and should take into consideration the area around it. There was actually an idea floated of having two rinks on a lower level and two rinks on an upper level (creating a stacked building) which I think is interesting. Obviously cost would have to be taken into consideration when planning for something of that nature.

As well, it was mentioned that if a Fourplex is built the other city arenas will be offered up if private interests wish to purchase them. I would assume this would exclude the LBR as that is a lot more important, both historically and culturally, than the other smaller civic arenas.

That being said, the article mentioned building this Ice Palace to attract major international tournaments such as the World Junior Championships. This is probably a misguided comment attempting to highlight the sort of events that we could garner given a second large, modern facility. If we wanted to attract the World Juniors we would probably need Harbour Station to be larger but in the event that we do not the main arena at the IP would need to seat at least 3,000 to be feasible for hosting an event of that size. ~6,200 + ~3,000 might be enough. Canada is hosting the tournament in 2015, 2017, 2019, and 2021, so one of those will have to be in the Atlantic Provinces (at this point presumably in Halifax, Moncton, St. John's, or a combination). Given the size of the tournaments in past years in Canada (Calgary/Edmonton/Ottawa) we really do not have arenas that size in this part of the country to compete, if they are indeed looking for similar attendance numbers.

If Moncton ever gets their new Centre built then a joint-bid for Moncton (New Coliseum) and Saint John (Harbour Station) for the 2021 World Juniors wouldn't be too shabby.

As well, Canada will be hosting the Womens Worlds in 2013 (Ottawa), 2016, and 2020.

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That's exactly what Mayor Norton was saying when interviewed. He stated that it can't just be an aluminum box and has to accommodate more than just hockey and should take into consideration the area around it. There was actually an idea floated of having two rinks on a lower level and two rinks on an upper level (creating a stacked building) which I think is interesting. Obviously cost would have to be taken into consideration when planning for something of that nature.

As well, it was mentioned that if a Fourplex is built the other city arenas will be offered up if private interests wish to purchase them. I would assume this would exclude the LBR as that is a lot more important, both historically and culturally, than the other smaller civic arenas.

That being said, the article mentioned building this Ice Palace to attract major international tournaments such as the World Junior Championships. This is probably a misguided comment attempting to highlight the sort of events that we could garner given a second large, modern facility. If we wanted to attract the World Juniors we would probably need Harbour Station to be larger but in the event that we do not the main arena at the IP would need to seat at least 3,000 to be feasible for hosting an event of that size. ~6,200 + ~3,000 might be enough. Canada is hosting the tournament in 2015, 2017, 2019, and 2021, so one of those will have to be in the Atlantic Provinces (at this point presumably in Halifax, Moncton, St. John's, or a combination). Given the size of the tournaments in past years in Canada (Calgary/Edmonton/Ottawa) we really do not have arenas that size in this part of the country to compete, if they are indeed looking for similar attendance numbers.

If Moncton ever gets their new Centre built then a joint-bid for Moncton (New Coliseum) and Saint John (Harbour Station) for the 2021 World Juniors wouldn't be too shabby.

As well, Canada will be hosting the Womens Worlds in 2013 (Ottawa), 2016, and 2020.

I've been saying the 4 plex should be a rebuilt Exhibition Building, or Victoria Rink

[Peter_johnns]

This on Long Warf.


Victoria Rink, one of the first indoor rinks in the country

Photos not my own.
Exhibition Building: Nb Museum http://website.nbm-mnb.ca/Transition/db_images/X13413.JPG
Victoria Rink: http://www.heritagefredericton.org/ystour/popup_P5-434.php

[kwajo]

IMO Attempting to rebuild a Victorian-era building is the worst thing we could do architecturally and financially.

[JHikka]

At council tonight there are two zoning amendments being heard and will be presented at public hearings in the future. The first is from Chris Scholten for 835 Loch Lomond Road (the former PetroCanada site). The permit is looking to allow for a "convenience store, gas bar, car wash, and restaurant". I'm not entirely sure if all or any of these are actually planned but that's what the amendment states.

As well, there is an application for the expansion of "the existing building for a liquor store and to recognize the existing parking area" on 4207-42011 Loch Lomond. This was mentioned on here a few weeks ago, IIRC.

As well, if any of you want to read some angry letters directed at the city, there are 75 names in opposition of a gravel pit on Latimore Lake road.

https://www.documents.saintjohn.ca/weblink8/0/doc/54312/Electronic.aspx

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by kwajo

IMO Attempting to rebuild a Victorian-era building is the worst thing we could do architecturally and financially.

Some of SJ's most admired buildings are from that era. Something like this would become an attraction in and of itself. There's money to be made there.
it would make sense to pay homage to them.

[ErickMontreal]

According to a reliable source, Exxon Mobile did not renew their lease at Loch Lomond Mall and they will apparently consolidate their activities at their existing center in Moncton. There would be between 200 and 300 jobs at stake, give and take.

We can now point out that the call center sector in SJ has been evaporating at a steady pace over the last few years.

It is obviously sad to see a decent employer packing their bags for Moncton.

[Peter_johnns]

That is a shame. But those call centre jobs are bound to the province entirely soon enough.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

According to a reliable source, Exxon Mobile did not renew their lease at Loch Lomond Mall and they will apparently consolidate their activities at their existing center in Moncton. There would be between 200 and 300 jobs at stake, give and take.

We can now point out that the call center sector in SJ has been evaporating at a steady pace over the last few years.

It is obviously sad to see a decent employer packing their bags for Moncton.

I do not take any great pleasure in seeing jobs migrating from one city in the province to another. There is no net benefit to the province in this, and I do not like seeing one city in NB benefitting at the expense of another. This is an entirely different situation as compared to the relocation of the ING Direct Contact Centre from Ottawa to Moncton last year. That one was a win for NB. This relocation is not.

Having said this, I will still repost this news in the Moncton thread, but only because it is news, not because I am necessarily that happy about the news....

[Peter_johnns]

lol Why Moncton?? On the topic of one city's loss is another one's gain, I am aware the Trans Canada passes near Moncton... which is something NB really lost out on when it bypassed Saint John. Feds wanted it to cross the country as cheaply as possible. But how they showed complete disregard for the seaports of Saint John and Halifax is something I will never understand.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

lol Why Moncton??

Exxon has a few hundred employees in Moncton already.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Poor Saint John :'(

[Ire Narissis]

I hope they will offer the employees the opportunity to relocate to the Moncton centre if they want to keep their jobs, at least.

[cdnguys]

Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Someone on this board also had inside knowledge of IBM losing a contract and massive lay offs but I don't think that happened. Lets just wait and see for sure - who knows maybe they are moving to a cheaper location like PrEdSq

[Pugsley]

When it comes to the call centre industry one needs to look long-term. I for one have NEVER been a fan of this industry as a means to drive long-term economic growth. Sorry Franky Mac, it was a great idea in the 80s/90s but times have changed considerably since you were premier.

I feel strongly that a city investing in call centers too heavily as a core industry will see a sharp decline in economic growth and stability within the next 10 years. Technology is advancing, foreign markets are expanding their capabilities in this industry, and the competitive cost nature of the business is quickly pushing Atlantic Canada out as a contender. In essence, the industry simply isn’t sustainable long-term. Let Moncton have the call centers and see how things go for that industry 10 years from now.

Saint John needs to focus on its core capabilities - being an industrial manufacturing and shipping centre. It also needs to jump on the industry fires that are naturally starting to ignite and put some fuel on them. I am thrilled by the recent news for Saint John regarding the potash plant, the potential of a pipeline from Alberta, and the recent number of start-up tech and creative businesses establishing themselves in the Uptown heritage district. These are the businesses the city needs to focus on. Not frowning and mourning the loss of another call centre.

Yes, it is sad that 200 people will be losing their jobs or having to move to Moncton but the reality is…you could have seen it coming. When you work in an operational cost-centric industry you need to expect this. Further,(not to be an elitist here) are 200 call centre jobs at $28-35,000/year better for Saint John’s long-term economic growth VERSUS say 100 specialized technical tradespeople jobs at $55-60,000/year? When you look at the disposable income factoring in cost of living and spin-off economic benefits – the answer becomes pretty obvious. It is better for Saint John to have fewer higher-wage positions for each household than multiple lower wage ones.

Long-term, the communities who focus on job volume versus salary are going to be in for a shock. Population growth does nothing for the tax base or long-term economic growth if the jobs barely provide enough money for an acceptable degree of household spending. No homes are purchased, no increase in personal wealth occurs, and less money flows back into the local economy. It is basic economics.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

When it comes to the call centre industry one needs to look long-term. I for one have NEVER been a fan of this industry as a means to drive long-term economic growth. Sorry Franky Mac, it was a great idea in the 80s/90s but times have changed considerably since you were premier.

I feel strongly that a city investing in call centers too heavily as a core industry will see a sharp decline in economic growth and stability within the next 10 years. Technology is advancing, foreign markets are expanding their capabilities in this industry, and the competitive cost nature of the business is quickly pushing Atlantic Canada out as a contender. In essence, the industry simply isn’t sustainable long-term. Let Moncton have the call centers and see how things go for that industry 10 years from now.

Saint John needs to focus on its core capabilities - being an industrial manufacturing and shipping centre. It also needs to jump on the industry fires that are naturally starting to ignite and put some fuel on them. I am thrilled by the recent news for Saint John regarding the potash plant, the potential of a pipeline from Alberta, and the recent number of start-up tech and creative businesses establishing themselves in the Uptown heritage district. These are the businesses the city needs to focus on. Not frowning and mourning the loss of another call centre.

Yes, it is sad that 200 people will be losing their jobs or having to move to Moncton but the reality is…you could have seen it coming. When you work in an operational cost-centric industry you need to expect this. Further,(not to be an elitist here) are 200 call centre jobs at $28-35,000/year better for Saint John’s long-term economic growth VERSUS say 100 specialized technical tradespeople jobs at $55-60,000/year? When you look at the disposable income factoring in cost of living and spin-off economic benefits – the answer becomes pretty obvious. It is better for Saint John to have fewer higher-wage positions for each household than multiple lower wage ones.

Long-term, the communities who focus on job volume versus salary are going to be in for a shock. Population growth does nothing for the tax base or long-term economic growth if the jobs barely provide enough money for an acceptable degree of household spending. No homes are purchased, no increase in personal wealth occurs, and less money flows back into the local economy. It is basic economics.

Exxon dubs it a business resource centre. Many of the jobs are high paying, skilled positions. Call centres do fill a niche - many are second incomes or employ a group that may not have the skills for a trades job