Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

That's a fine-looking stadium for the money. Only comment is that the upper deck looks to be at a very steep angle.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Halifax should find a design that meets its budget and requirements somewhere else and built it verbatim.

How many years are we going to have to wait? I'm hoping when the library and Nova Centre are complete that this can actually be delivered upon.

I feel bad for Halifax because this isn't even truly on the agenda... or good public transportation.

It would be my hope that Halifax can move beyond the Cat bylaw council and get even more done over the next 2 years.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I feel bad for Halifax because this isn't even truly on the agenda... or good public transportation.

It would be my hope that Halifax can move beyond the Cat bylaw council and get even more done over the next 2 years.

I share your concerns.

Increasing Halifax's modes of public transit, I think, are a higher priority than a stadium. Dealing with financing both a stadium and public transit at once, which I'd like to be LRT, would be a challenge considering Halifax has had difficulties even organising itself around dealing with just public transit or justa stadium.

Regardless, we currently have a mayor that isn't shy about telling the media he wants a stadium for the city. We'll see what 2013 brings in terms of political progress on these fronts.

Better public transit certainly cannot wait. Most areas of the city are seeing growth -- and we don't want all of these new arrivals to be driving their own vehicles.

[c-way-dude]

A year-end interview with Mike Savage about his wish list for 2013. Regarding a stadium, Savage believes there is a business case. He also believes that a stadium would be helpful in building a sense of community.
http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/485...lks-wish-list-for-2013-in-year-end-chat/

[halifaxboyns]

That's good news - that he's hopeful. I think there is hope, but I would still be interested to hear what the plan is for Shannon Park (just to see what their timeline is).

[c-way-dude]

http://www.atlantic.ctvnews.ca/idea-of-m...and-well-but-roadblocks-remain-1.1142778

[c-way-dude]

Should Burnside be HRM's sports capital?
http://burnsidenews.com/News/2013-02-13/...urnside-be-HRM%26rsquos-sports-capital/1

[q12]

Reposted from the CFL thread:

Halifax is safer bet for CFL franchise, analyst says


CBC News Posted: Mar 1, 2013 2:42 PM AT Last Updated: Mar 1, 2013 2:41 PM AT

Halifax may be the safest bet for a Canadian Football League expansion franchise because of its larger population and business community, according to a marketing expert.

Mark Cohon, the CFL commissioner, said this week in Regina the league is open to eastern expansion. During an interview in Regina, the commissioner pointed directly to Halifax, Moncton and Quebec City as potential markets.

Andre Richelieu, a professor in sports marketing at Laval University in Quebec, said he isn't sure Moncton could support a full-time team.

Richelieu said given the choice between the three eastern cities, he thinks Halifax is the safer bet for the CFL if it is looking for long-term sustainability.

"You need a strong team if it ever arrives in the Maritimes and I would say that Halifax — because of the stronger population, stronger corporate presence — would be a better fit than Quebec City,” he said.

Richelieu said it's one thing to attract fans for an annual game in the fall, but quite another to fill seats every second week for four or five months of the year.

Read more here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/03/01/nb-moncton-cfl-future-155.html

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by q12

Reposted from the CFL thread:

Duh, and nobody from Halifax goes to Moncton... but people from Moncton definitely go to Halifax.

[ILoveHalifax]

I live in Halifax. Maybe somebody can tell me why I should come to Moncton. What am I missing by not going there?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I live in Halifax. Maybe somebody can tell me why I should come to Moncton. What am I missing by not going there?

Not to be a jerk about it, but not a whole lot. This excerpt from Lonely Planet, Atlantic Canada, sums it up:

"A few square blocks along Main St in the city centre have been prettied up with redbricked sidewalks and planters full of flowers. There are some great restaurants, bars, and a bustling Acadian farmers’ market. Apart from that, there is little to detain the visitor."

The Acadian influence makes it more interesting than it otherwise would be, but that's about it.

Re: a CFL franchise. Outside the Atlantic region, Moncton has very little name recognition, which would likely figure into a CFL franchise placement. People elsewhere in Canada are usually familiar with, and usually have positive feelings about, Halifax. Mention Moncton and you'll generally get you a blank stare. Besides, Halifax has a larger population, as does Nova Scotia over New Brunswick. It's all of a no-brainer, isn't it?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Re: a CFL franchise. Outside the Atlantic region, Moncton has very little name recognition, which would likely figure into a CFL franchise placement. People elsewhere in Canada are usually familiar with, and usually have positive feelings about, Halifax. Mention Moncton and you'll generally get you a blank stare. Besides, Halifax has a larger population, as does Nova Scotia over New Brunswick. It's all of a no-brainer, isn't it?

I don't like doing the cheerleader thing but the two cities are just not comparable. Way too much airtime is given to one-sided abstract arguments that do not stand up to scrutiny, like the idea that Moncton is a "hub" but Halifax is remote.

I've maintained for years now that the story pretty much comes down to whether or not a serious plan to build a stadium in Halifax crystallizes over the next 5-10 years. Hopefully if a stadium does happen it will be a focused project of reasonable scale. It wouldn't make much sense for the city to host a major sporting event that costs, say, $500M+ in order to get a $100M stadium. There's also a tendency for sports teams and leagues to ask for the moon and the stars when in reality they would accept a modest venue provided it's the right size and has certain essentials.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't like doing the cheerleader thing but the two cities are just not comparable. Way too much airtime is given to one-sided abstract arguments that do not stand up to scrutiny, like the idea that Moncton is a "hub" but Halifax is remote.

Halifax isn't remote if you live anyplace within about a two hour drive of the city, namely someplace in central Nova Scotia. Halifax however is increasingly remote (or at least distant) if you are from Cape Breton or from anyplace in NB or PEI. If, for example, you live in Miramichi, Halifax is most certainly not a simple day trip, and would require a special weekend excursion. Moncton on the other hand is a reasonable daytrip from Miramichi (or Charlottetown, or Fredericton etc.)

The idea of Moncton as a "hub" (note I did not say "THE" hub) would of course be a foreign concept to Haligonians, but to many Maritimers, Moncton is an important regional city. You can't take that away from us.

[someone123]

You don't seem to be disagreeing with me.

In my post I was talking about the common opinion that Moncton is the "geographic hub" while Halifax is larger but less strategically located (this is the narrative that creates a sense of tension in the media). In reality they are both comparable in terms of their proximity to other populations in the region. Places like CB or Western NS are closer to Halifax, as is Central NS. That's about half of the population of the Maritimes (and the share in central NS keeps increasing). Moncton is in the geographic centre of the region but it's not what you'd call the population centroid of the region.

On top of that it's really not clear how important the regional markets would be for a league that appears to be driven by ticket sales (other stuff like TV markets don't depend on travel times as directly). I'd expect that 1 person living in CB would attend on average maybe 1/100 as many games in Halifax as a person living 10 minutes away from the stadium. I would expect that a town like Bathurst would have, in practice, almost zero impact on ticket sales in Moncton over the long haul. In Regina, the vast majority of tickets sold are local. In other words, the extra 250,000 locals in Halifax probably make more difference than the regional market does to ticket sales.

There's also a strategic aspect to all of this since we're talking about one league and a region that's unlikely to support multiple teams. It seems like it would be a big mistake for the CFL to put a team in a smaller city, losing most sales in a much larger urban market in the process. This is why you see teams start in cities like Toronto and Montreal and then expand out to smaller cities if there's more to be gained from establishing another team. If the teams were all independent competitive businesses it would be a little different.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Duh, and nobody from Halifax goes to Moncton... but people from Moncton definitely go to Halifax.

I know hairstylists in Halifax who periodically visit Moncton, where a variety of hair shows are hosted. I also know Haligonians who occasionally visit Moncton because of Magic Mountain and Crystal Palace.

Yes, Montonians definitely go to Halifax, but I don't think it's totally fair to say nobody from Halifax goes to Moncton.

With regards to a CFL team, however, I do strongly believe that it would be incredibly stupid to establish one in Moncton. I don't care how Irving-induced Monctonian egos are; clearly, the evidence points to Halifax as the stronger choice.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The idea of Moncton as a "hub" (note I did not say "THE" hub) would of course be a foreign concept to Haligonians, but to many Maritimers, Moncton is an important regional city. You can't take that away from us.

[Shinook]

Sorry, I'm too lazy to read through this whole thread. Are there any current plans for a CFL stadium in Halifax?

[Hali87]

Sort of. There are no concrete plans at the moment but the new mayor and current council have expressed interest in getting the ball rolling again. There were tentative plans to build a stadium to host the upcoming FIFA tournament but the city decided not to bid. Ultimately this is probably a good thing, because the stadium would have been very soccer-oriented and may not have been large enough to support a CFL team, and in any case would not have been a very good football venue. Hopefully the new council can agree on a ~25,000 seat stadium with relatively few or no endzone seats, since this would work well for both soccer and football. The FIFA design had a very high proportion of the seating in the endzones.

[wespidel]

Yes the CFL, wants now to go after the 10th CFL franchise with Ottawa coming back in the CFL with a new team and new stadium in 2014. So there are three potential markets currently, Halifax, Quebec city, and Moncton. But nothing can potentially happen to make this a reality without a CFL model ready made stadium in place, which none of these markets have. And if Halifax ridiculously thinks they will be a player if they build their embarrassing bare boned 10 to 14,000 permanent seat stadium that can like Moncton's be only expanded to only a maxium of 25 or 27 thousand, they are dreaming. Unless Halifax or Quebec city can build a ready made CFL model stadium, with 25 to 30 thousand permanent seats, expandable to 45 to 50 thousand, and with all the amenities needed in a stadium today such as skyboxes, VIP lounges, club seats, restaurants,etc., in order to be viable, there will not be a 10th CFL franchise in Canada. One advantage Quebec and Halifax have over Moncton, other than population which is also extremely important in order to sell a season ticket fan base, is that Quebec city and Halifax can, if they are willing, build a CFL ready made model stadium that can as well, be capable of hosting a Grey Cup game which all CFL owners and CFL cities want and need to have the ability to stage. Halifax needs someone to stand up and lead a major CFL model stadium project, if they want to take an advantage of a huge opportunity to have the only major stadium in Atlantic Canada, to become the sports and entertainment capital of Atlantic Canada, which being the largest city in the region, should want to be!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Hopefully the new council can agree on a ~25,000 seat stadium with relatively few or no endzone seats, since this would work well for both soccer and football. The FIFA design had a very high proportion of the seating in the endzones.

The FIFA bid was very strange. The bid itself was basically just a way to get a stadium built, but its stadium requirements didn't match the city's requirements going in.

One of the problems was that the CWGs became a "hot potato" and the idea of a stadium was dropped entirely for years. Instead, a limited planning process should have continued based on the planning work that was already done for the games. It makes sense now for council to come up with a firm idea of requirements (size, location, amenities) and then either pay for a bare bones expandable version or bid on an event that fits an established vision for the facility.

I don't think the stadium has to be 100% CFL-ready before a CFL team even exists, and that probably doesn't make sense financially or politically. It would be better to try to finance a smaller project at first and then announce a bit more funding a few years later if and when the CFL is on board (if that sort of staging works with the construction project -- sometimes it doesn't because there are huge setup and teardown costs).