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  #2621  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Makid View Post
What gets me about the hotel is that people keep thinking it is being built with tax dollars. It isn't.

What would happen is that the State, City, County and School District would continue to see the current tax level they do now. The increase in property taxes would be returned to the developer. This is a tax incentive. An incentive only.

The incentive offered is no different than any incentive to entice a company to move to the state or to a given city. No government budget would take a hit for construction costs as the developer would be paying for it.

The incentive is just a way of saying "Hey, we are going to lock that piece of land at the current tax level for the next 20 years. If you build something big there, your property tax won't increase for 20 years." This allows developers to receive a faster ROI and it does encourage development.

I just wish that SLC Council would do something similar for the surface parking lots.
The assumption that the City would be paying for the hotel with tax money is a widely held one. The newspapers are partly to blame with the way they title their stories. A lot of people don't read. Sad, but true. Someone who is invested in this project should make a Youtube video explaining the particulars of this, and then blast it on social media --that seems to be the way people learn things these days.
     
     
  #2622  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DCRes View Post
I noticed last night that the Burger King on the north-east corner of 200 E and 400 S appears to be closed. The sign is gone and the place is gutted. Does anybody know if the land was purchased? Perhaps some development set to take place?
Ahhh Yes... They are going to built a "Two Storey" Skyscraper that will dramatically change the skyline of Salt Lake City.
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Last edited by ctobsl; Mar 1, 2013 at 1:26 AM.
     
     
  #2623  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 1:39 AM
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Ahhh Yes... They are going to built a "Two Storey" Skyscraper that will dramatically change the skyline of Salt Lake City.
Jesus. Is it just me or is it reasonable to ask "CTOBSL" to refrain from posting until after completing English 101?
     
     
  #2624  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SLC Projects View Post
Amen. I went there once for lunch and my car got booted. Never gave my business to them again after that. Good riddance indeed.
Indeed. Sounds like we had similar experiences. Their croissant breakfast sandwich is good, but it isn't THAT good.
     
     
  #2625  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sight-Seer View Post
I know Utah is a Republican state. The average inhabitant really does have some astounding views. I recently had a somewhat heated debate about the Constitution. Any debate with a Republican quickly becomes heated. The average Utahn really believes the Constitution was divinely inspired and hence akin to scripture. They undoubtedly believe the subsequent amendments were a mistake. This isn't really about the constitution. It's about the fact that Republicans don't believe in established science like Kynesian economics and evolution. They don't believe that government spending promotes growth. Hence they don't believe that government / public spending on a convention hotel will create more benefit than the public cost. Somehow they are ignorant of the additional tax dollars a competitive convention center would bring to the state. Unfortunately, the political leaders of this state are absolute reflections of the average citizen and so cherish their ingrained ideas. Like the average Utahn they are ignorant of basic economics. In short, I don't have a problem with using public money to promote the construction of a convention hotel, but the public and the politicians will undoubtedly never go for it. I grew up here and am acutely aware of the vast gulf between the conservative faction and those (like me) with "wild ideas" like advanced economic theory. I can almost hear people saying "They teach economics at BYU." You can learn about something without believing it's a good idea. I'm kind of sick of Utah right know and our dumb politicians. I can almost hear people saying "So move, then." That's the standard response.
And that can be a rude response. But I think when you dislike the majority of a people in an area then it's reasonable to expect that they may think you'd be happier elsewhere.
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  #2626  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 2:31 AM
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Jesus. Is it just me or is it reasonable to ask "CTOBSL" to refrain from posting until after completing English 101?
So I spelled or used the wrong word... I'm sure you have never made a mistake in your life...?
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  #2627  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ctobsl View Post
So I spelled or used the wrong word... I'm sure you have never made a mistake in your life...?
Yes of course, I have made plenty of mistakes. And I'm sure I'll make more. And I'll respect the readers of this forum by double-checking my posts before clicking on "Submit".
     
     
  #2628  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 4:42 AM
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Originally Posted by TedBell View Post
Indeed. Sounds like we had similar experiences. Their croissant breakfast sandwich is good, but it isn't THAT good.
should go try their $80 Whopper.
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  #2629  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by TedBell View Post
Yes of course, I have made plenty of mistakes. And I'm sure I'll make more. And I'll respect the readers of this forum by double-checking my posts before clicking on "Submit".
Not to be a dick, but the period goes inside the quotation marks. Also, starting two sentences with "and" is redundant. Point being: this is a message board, not a college essay. Lay off of others, especially since you yourself are obviously not well versed in the rules of grammar and syntax.
     
     
  #2630  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TonyAnderson View Post
And that can be a rude response. But I think when you dislike the majority of a people in an area then it's reasonable to expect that they may think you'd be happier elsewhere.
What a cop out response. I've lived in Utah my whole life. My entire family is here. It's every bit as much my home as it is the Mormon family down the street. Just because I don't like certain politicians or the backward, often bigoted Utah legislature, doesn't mean I'd be more happier anywhere else - and the idea of pissing and moaning about 'em is no different than those who piss and moan about the President and the Congress and yet never seriously contemplate moving out of the country.

I hate that response. I hate it because it suggests I'm not entitled to an opinion since it doesn't subscribe to the majority viewpoint. And I get that isn't exactly what you are saying - but it surely is implied when people assume I might be happier if I left.

But the reality is, if you're not Mormon in Utah, you are decidedly a minority in almost every aspect of politics and culture. That's just the way it is and has been since my grandparents were kids growing up in Salt Lake City. Utah Mormons, far more than non-Utah Mormons, are a homogeneous bunch and if you're LDS, there is really no problem with that. But if you're not, it can be, at times, overwhelming because the LDS Church, either directly or indirectly, has more impact on Utah culture and politics than any other dominant religion in any other state. That's just the reality and not necessarily an attack. But the bottom line is that Utah hasn't had a non-LDS governor since J. Bracken Lee in the 1950s. The legislature is almost entirely Mormon, even though the state as a whole is diversifying - and it goes beyond just religion. All our representatives in Washington are Mormon, white and male. When was the last time we elected a non-Mormon to congress or the senate?

You'd have to delve deep into the record books for that one because my guess is it hasn't happened since many of us were born.

Is that ultimately a bad thing? If you're Mormon, you probably don't see a problem with it. But if you're not, you feel your voice is often lost among the masses. Then when you complain about it, or want to openly change it, you're given a curt response about living somewhere else.

I don't want to live somewhere else. This is my home. It's always been my home. I love Salt Lake City. That does not mean I blindly accept, however, some of the archaic and dumb laws and dumb legislatures who impose 'em. It doesn't mean I accept this idea that we can't have a more diverse government that looks more like the state instead of what the state looked like 50 or 60 years ago. You know, our government is probably one of the least diverse of any state in the country and no one seems to have a problem with that or if they do have a problem with it, if they do mention it, they're attacked for attacking the LDS Church ... when in reality, it's not personal. I have nothing against Mormons or the LDS Church. But I do have a problem when a voice is so easily dismissed because it doesn't conform to what maybe the majority of the state believes.

I think a diverse government is needed and unfortunately, we don't get it here in Utah. We rail against the legislature year in and year out and at the end of the day, we elect the same people over and over again and they're almost always of the same background.

But as Utah diversifies, sooner or later, it's going to have to reach the capitol and then what? What happens if, in twenty years, we have a more liberal population that accepts some of the more taboo subjects often dismissed by this society? I wouldn't dare tell those conservatives to look for somewhere else to live because I know, as it is with me, this is their home.

It's hard, I guess, for Mormons to understand exactly where those of us who grew up outside the LDS Church are coming from. It's not like being a Mormon in Rhode Island, a state dominated by Catholicism - yet not to the point where its whole structure is built around that faith. It's a completely different experience and it's hard to put into words without sounding resentful or angry. I'm not angry. But I do get bewildered by how reactionary our legislature is on so many trivial issues. It baffles me that we're so concerned about adults legally drinking that we have to regulate the sale of any alcoholic beverage over 3.2% ABW to the point where you can only buy through the state.

We love freedom and yet, when it comes to legal acts of freedom, we're a state that often lags behind the country - which is ironic considering Utah was the deciding state in repealing prohibition!

You have to order a meal before you order a drink at restaurants. You can't drink heavy beer or malt beverages in a restaurant past midnight. We have limited liquor licenses, which hinders growth and makes it so difficult for many businesses to open up, especially in areas with a high amount of restaurants and clubs ... and those are the rules off the top of my head. Hopefully we can remove the Zion curtain from the list of idiotic rules ... but that's just one step.

So, yeah, I'm going to complain about this. Just as I'm going to complain about how poorly the Jazz are run. But it doesn't mean I want to move or stop cheering for the Jazz. My whole life is here and I don't have to like the legislature to live here. But that doesn't mean we should be told to silently accept our situation and not complain about it. If you can't complain ... how are you going to make sure they hear you?
     
     
  #2631  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 7:13 AM
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Not to be rude, because I'm sure this is a sensitive hot topic for some of you, but could we move this discussion regarding alcohol law change, and the mormon influence on the state, to the other thread (I forgot what it's called)?
     
     
  #2632  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Scraperdude801 View Post
Not to be a dick, but the period goes inside the quotation marks. Also, starting two sentences with "and" is redundant. Point being: this is a message board, not a college essay. Lay off of others, especially since you yourself are obviously not well versed in the rules of grammar and syntax.
You are right, this isn't a college essay. I really shouldn't read and post on forums when I'm drinking! But I am glad you mentioned that the period goes inside the quotation marks. I always hated that rule, especially since it doesn't apply to exclamation points and question marks.
     
     
  #2633  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sight-Seer View Post
I know Utah is a Republican state. The average inhabitant really does have some astounding views. I recently had a somewhat heated debate about the Constitution. Any debate with a Republican quickly becomes heated. The average Utahn really believes the Constitution was divinely inspired and hence akin to scripture. They undoubtedly believe the subsequent amendments were a mistake. This isn't really about the constitution. It's about the fact that Republicans don't believe in established science like Kynesian economics and evolution. They don't believe that government spending promotes growth. Hence they don't believe that government / public spending on a convention hotel will create more benefit than the public cost. Somehow they are ignorant of the additional tax dollars a competitive convention center would bring to the state. Unfortunately, the political leaders of this state are absolute reflections of the average citizen and so cherish their ingrained ideas. Like the average Utahn they are ignorant of basic economics. In short, I don't have a problem with using public money to promote the construction of a convention hotel, but the public and the politicians will undoubtedly never go for it. I grew up here and am acutely aware of the vast gulf between the conservative faction and those (like me) with "wild ideas" like advanced economic theory. I can almost hear people saying "They teach economics at BYU." You can learn about something without believing it's a good idea. I'm kind of sick of Utah right know and our dumb politicians. I can almost hear people saying "So move, then." That's the standard response.
While I understand your frustration with the prevailing paradigm in Utah, I must disagree that the state`s entire Republican leadership is what you described. I, too, tend to favor moderate government intervention to cultivate growth and provide additional incentive for economic development. I have been pleasantly surprised, however, at how much Republican leaders in Utah have embraced specific, targeted taxes to fund public projects (such as public mass transit, roads, parks, trails, etc) in conjunction with specific, targeted tax breaks to create economic incentive to attract new businesses, sports facilities, etc. Just because Utah has a larger majority of Republicans than most states, I don`t see that as making them the most ideological Republicans. With the exception of social issues, I see Utah Republicans as being quite moderate on their approach to many issues, including economic development.

Case in point: I have family that lives in Colorado Springs, which has predominantly Republican leadership and public representation. With a population comparable to that of Provo-Orem (albeit slightly larger), the investments in infrastructure such as public mass transit, roads, etc. pale in comparison to those of Provo-Orem. This is because local political leaders refuse to raise taxes for any reason. Even during the economic downturn, they preferred to cut police and emergency services to "emergency only" situations, cut power by turning off street lighting in residential areas, reduce road maintenance, etc. than raise taxes. I have heard similar stories from other staunchly conservative areas in other parts of the country.
     
     
  #2634  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Not to be rude, because I'm sure this is a sensitive hot topic for some of you, but could we move this discussion regarding alcohol law change, and the mormon influence on the state, to the other thread (I forgot what it's called)?
YES! PLEASE!!!!
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  #2635  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 4:24 PM
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My goodness. I opened up the thread today and found a lot of grumpy people, but I'll add my two bits anyway. Many of your complaints about the legislature and local color are valid, but they are not unique to Utah. I've lived my life all over the US. My time in SLC consists of 4 years at the U of U and visiting there once or twice each year for business and family. In each state I've lived in, the state legislatures have been full of whackos. State legislatures seem to attract them. Here in AZ, they are so far to the right that nothing gets done (it's further out there than what Colorado Springs was previously described as). In Washington state, the far left completely dominates and goes out of its way to silence every one else (thus the saying that there are 49 states and the Soviet Republic of Washington); it's very oppressive there for conservatives and moderates. In Georgia, there was no support for schools or infrastructure and graft was commonplace. The GA legislature consisted nearly entirely of ministers when I lived there. The Zion curtain is alive and well thoroughout Texas oustside the 4 main metro areas. Until two years ago, Seattle's municipal liquor laws made Utah's look liberal. I was surprised that much got accomplished in Pennsylvania at all as special interests and social activists controlled everything. The politicians in metro Denver seemed to do pretty well, but the members from congress representing CO tended to be one topic types and were rather incompetent outside their fields of interest.
One thing I have noticed in Utah, however, is that even though it stays to the righton many social issues, it swings to the left on others. Business associates that I have that are politically active Tea Partiers have gone to Utah and come back complaining that it's too liberal there (as an FYI, I am moderate and maybe a little moderate left in my views and am not a fan of any political party).
That's why I have hope that your new hotel will be built (my firm will utilize it if it's built). Common sense will win in the end there. If it were AZ, you could count on it never happening in the current political environment.
Now we should return to development issues... I am far more interested in architecture and structural engineering and the economics of high rise construction in SLC.

Last edited by Lilljemalm; Mar 1, 2013 at 4:49 PM.
     
     
  #2636  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 4:45 PM
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Is Dunkin donuts simply renovating the Burger King Building are will they be building a new building?
     
     
  #2637  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TedBell View Post
You are right, this isn't a college essay. I really shouldn't read and post on forums when I'm drinking! But I am glad you mentioned that the period goes inside the quotation marks. I always hated that rule, especially since it doesn't apply to exclamation points and question marks.
In Britain, the period doesn't go inside the quotation marks. So, just tell people you're British.
     
     
  #2638  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DCRes View Post
I noticed last night that the Burger King on the north-east corner of 200 E and 400 S appears to be closed.

Never understood why BK allowed two franchises so close to one another. There is another BK on 400 S only 3.5 blocks away!
     
     
  #2639  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 6:16 PM
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Dunkin Donuts is simply remodeling the existing structure. If the building was demolished, it would have to the meet today's zoning standards. Drive through restaurants are not allowed in the D-1 zoning district and any corner building would have to be a minimum of 100'. Until the use is abandoned or the building is demolished it is legal nonconforming and can continue to operate.

The reason there are two Burger Kings so close together is that the one across from the library formerly operated as a Hardees. Burger King at some point purchased all of the Hardees in Utah and they became Burger Kings.
     
     
  #2640  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2013, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilljemalm View Post
My goodness. I opened up the thread today and found a lot of grumpy people, but I'll add my two bits anyway. Many of your complaints about the legislature and local color are valid, but they are not unique to Utah. I've lived my life all over the US. My time in SLC consists of 4 years at the U of U and visiting there once or twice each year for business and family. In each state I've lived in, the state legislatures have been full of whackos. State legislatures seem to attract them. Here in AZ, they are so far to the right that nothing gets done (it's further out there than what Colorado Springs was previously described as). In Washington state, the far left completely dominates and goes out of its way to silence every one else (thus the saying that there are 49 states and the Soviet Republic of Washington); it's very oppressive there for conservatives and moderates. In Georgia, there was no support for schools or infrastructure and graft was commonplace. The GA legislature consisted nearly entirely of ministers when I lived there. The Zion curtain is alive and well thoroughout Texas oustside the 4 main metro areas. Until two years ago, Seattle's municipal liquor laws made Utah's look liberal. I was surprised that much got accomplished in Pennsylvania at all as special interests and social activists controlled everything.
My big problem is that so many liquor laws in other states are on a county-by-county or municipal-by-municipal level, which makes it much easier to change. Ours aren't, though. Salt Lake County or Salt Lake City has little say in their liquor laws - it's all at the state and that makes it far more challenging to change.

It's the same in Texas and other southern states. It's almost always left to the discretion of the city/county. That type of approach is so much more progressive than here in Utah because it does allow for progress ... while also preserving the uniqueness of other counties - like I would not expect Utah County, or Provo, to liberalize its liquor laws. But Salt Lake City, the largest city in the state, is beholden to the exact same liquor laws of a small town in Millard County.
     
     
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