Atlanta Project Thread IV

[Inman Parker]

While I agree with some of the things that you are saying, I also think that you are being far over dramatic.

First off, dont try to compare Atlanta with San Francisco, NYC, Seattle, etc. Atlanta is basically being built from scratch in areas like midtown, Inman, O4W, westside, etc and the progress that has been made in the last 15 years, regardless of how much still needs to be done, is pretty staggering. Atlanta doesnt have the historic infrastructure (for a number of different reasons) that any of those cities have and, as a result, the city is going through an extensive transitional period of trying to change the suburban mindset that has developed over the past 60 years.

The fact is, Atlanta isnt one of the wealthiest cities in the country (compared to the list of cities that you just rattled off) and the wealth that it does have tends to prefer to live in a suburban setting for the most part. Even a portion of the group that would prefer "urban" lifestyle live in suburbs because it is perceived as the thing to do when you move here.

On your point about about people just wanting walkability and access to transit, of course, but thats easier said than done. Since Atlanta doesnt have the advantage of a historic grid of walkable streets, there is a chicken or the egg situation. In these older cities, you have a young, creative group that moves into a block of old buildings, puts the energy into it while its cheap and then the neighborhood changes over time. In Atlanta, we are building brand new buildings, which dont tend to draw as creative a demographic and cause the progress to occur much slower due to financing costs of new buildings. I hear people all the time say that they would live in Midtown if it had a little more going on and it felt safer. In reality, if all of those people moved there, it would feel much safer. However, they wont feel safe until more people suck it up and move into the city (which is happening, just not as quickly as some want). Its a tough cycle where many people want this to be a more urban city but dont want to put in the effort to make that happen. Because of that, we are left with developers trying to make it happen with their granite counter tops, pools etc. They have to be able to offer something since they cant offer a complete city yet.

At the end of the day I think that you are correct. At the core, people these days expect their cities to be walkable, smart places places to be with access to transit. Unfortunately, those things dont happen until their is a strong enough demand for them. This IS happening in Atlanta, but its a long process and is taking longer than some of us would like.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by scania

I know of 4 lawyers that live in SF, that are under the age of 30. 2 of them graduated from Emory, 1 from Spellman, and 1 from Morehouse...all four of them have nice places in SF. Stop making it seem as if young profesionaks don't care about having updated amenities. Maybe you and your friends don't care, but I can assure you that is not the masses. I also know another person who graduated from Vanderbilt that lives in Sausalito. Her place is very nice as well. The crazy thing is they are all paying about the same thing as you within reason. It doesn't make sense, that your place is how you described. I'm not sure how much research you have done as far as where you live, but you are getting ripped off!!!

I could have gotten my place for probably $1200 just 3 years ago. Rent has been going up so crazily here, fortunately my building is rent controlled and none of the new ones are. Most new buildings are condos, and they sell for around $2,000/SF. New rentals are rare, but are UC for the first time in a while in Soma and near Civic Center. Rents start at $3,000 and go way up at these places. The average 2BR rent in the city right now is right at around $3,000, which of course includes all areas. Sausalito is also across the bay and would be cheaper. My building is just north of FiDi, which also makes it a tad more than if it were in a more remote area with limited Muni access.

Originally Posted by jpk1292000

Wow! You're all over the place with your posts on Atlanta boards. Sometimes you're defending the city like you're the mayor. Other times you're condemning it for being more miserable than a prison in Siberia.

That was my experience with the city. I invested so much of my time and energy in the city, and unfortunately, for me, I got little out of it, so it became a real love-hate relationship. I did get my job, which is great and brought me away from the city. Most of my friends moved away, as well.

Originally Posted by pawelra

I remember simms referring that Atlanta is one of the best places to live and especially midtown, now San Francisco is.
I'm European and I'm not native to this country/city but I adapted to it. I know there is a lot more better places around globe to live and everyone gonna say good world about own city.
I wish you luck in SF and stop trashing Atlanta forum because now you live in different city.

You’re just going to have to let me vent. And I’m done now. Out of all my 1,000+ posts, almost all have been construction updates and positive Atl posts, but you’re right, really only because I lived there. Still interested in the construction side and continued urbanization, but the friggin people got to me so bad and I just dealt with it and kept it in at the time. When you're 24 years old are you really supposed to be dedicating most of your time, effort, and income into keeping up with the Joneses? That's what I constantly felt like, and because I always had different interests I always felt like a weirdo in Atlanta. It was so miserable, and I'm not sorry for voicing it.

Inman Parker – good point - these developers have to offer something, but never have I been in such a massive city where people come to expect so much for so little and feel so entitled and awesome and rich and good looking because they have so much for so little. It just erodes people's attitudes. Everyone’s a fuckin diva. Where you live is my favorite area in the city, most down to earth people, normal people, diverse, active in community, know what’s going on, trying to be part of the change, etc. Wish more of the city would be like that.

[jpk1292000]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

You’re just going to have to let me vent. And I’m done now. Out of all my 1,000+ posts, almost all have been construction updates and positive Atl posts, but you’re right, really only because I lived there. Still interested in the construction side and continued urbanization, but the friggin people got to me so bad and I just dealt with it and kept it in at the time. When you're 24 years old are you really supposed to be dedicating most of your time, effort, and income into keeping up with the Joneses? That's what I constantly felt like, and because I always had different interests I always felt like a weirdo in Atlanta. It was so miserable, and I'm not sorry for voicing it.

Inman Parker – good point - these developers have to offer something, but never have I been in such a massive city where people come to expect so much for so little and feel so entitled and awesome and rich and good looking because they have so much for so little. It just erodes people's attitudes. Everyone’s a fuckin diva. Where you live is my favorite area in the city, most down to earth people, normal people, diverse, active in community, know what’s going on, trying to be part of the change, etc. Wish more of the city would be like that.

Atlanta, like any other large city is full of people with money. Many of those people have alot of money that they didn't earn...it was inherited. For someone like me who works 60 hours a week and isn't rolling in money, this can be frustrating. And in a city like Atlanta where the cost of housing is lower than in places like DC, NY, or SF, a given amount of money goes alot farther here, so the ability of people to flaunt their "trust fund", "rich", etc. life style is probably greater.

But by no means is this "rich", "spoiled", etc lifestyle limited to Atlanta. With my job I travel to many cities (SF, BOS, NY) and there are just as many rich people who are full of themselves in these places as in Atlanta. In Manhattan this seems even worse that Atlanta, in my opinion. Midtown ATL does seem to be the nexus of this type of culture in Atlanta, but other areas like Decatur, Inman Park, Old Fourth Ward tend to have people who aren't as materialistic. The same could be said for interesting neighborhoods in other cities.

[atlwarrior]

Originally Posted by jpk1292000

Atlanta, like any other large city is full of people with money. Many of those people have alot of money that they didn't earn...it was inherited. For someone like me who works 60 hours a week and isn't rolling in money, this can be frustrating. And in a city like Atlanta where the cost of housing is lower than in places like DC, NY, or SF, a given amount of money goes alot farther here, so the ability of people to flaunt their "trust fund", "rich", etc. life style is probably greater.

But by no means is this "rich", "spoiled", etc lifestyle limited to Atlanta. With my job I travel to many cities (SF, BOS, NY) and there are just as many rich people who are full of themselves in these places as in Atlanta. In Manhattan this seems even worse that Atlanta, in my opinion. Midtown ATL does seem to be the nexus of this type of culture in Atlanta, but other areas like Decatur, Inman Park, Old Fourth Ward tend to have people who aren't as materialistic. The same could be said for interesting neighborhoods in other cities.

Maybe this universal quote for people everywhere will help.
Half of the people we try to impress don't like us, and the other half is not sure of us. So just be yourself, and be happy.

[Tuckerman]

Well, I always enjoyed Simms offerings while he lived in ATL - they were vey informative. As to his present view, well when you are 24 one is entitled to rant a bit and explore all the profound contradictions in cities. When you are, as I am, 50 years older than that, the difference become less meaningful. It is kind of analogous to at one point thinking that the Roman Catholic Church is very different from the Methodist Church. Until you step back and see that they are very similar and that the differences are superficial. In my view North American cities are like that - they are just North American and share more similarities than differences. I can have a Starbucks anywhere, downtown, midtown, suburbia, exurbia and the experience will be similar and the people inside look very much the same everywhere. If you are going to compare and contrast, then compare SF and ATL with Nairobi, or Paris, or Tokyo if you want to see some difference. Even then, with globalization, these are all 20th century cities overall.

[smArTaLlone]

An Atlanta developer has begun pitching a high-profile site that could become Midtown’s first significant office building since the mid-2000s.

Brand Properties has the site next to Jim Borders’ 23-story SkyHouse Midtown under contract. Brand Properties did not disclose the price. It’s thought to be at least $4 million an acre for the site at 12th and West Peachtree streets.

Brand Properties President Michael Hoath said the project is in the early stages, but he has begun talking to potential tenants that could occupy the majority of the 12- to 15-story building.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/print-edition/2013/02/22/new-office-tower-eyed-for-midtown.html

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by SwimAtl

Haha. I bet they're trying for Ga Tech yellow.

I think you're right SwimAtl. The sections that appear "avocado" in this rendering are actually yellow in the rendering in the Biz Chronicle.

[RudyJK]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

That was my experience with the city. I invested so much of my time and energy in the city, and unfortunately, for me, I got little out of it, so it became a real love-hate relationship. I did get my job, which is great and brought me away from the city. Most of my friends moved away, as well.

At 24, how much time could you have really given? Sorry, but your complaints make you sound really immature. Invest more than a few years and rent dollars in a place and then come back and lecture us.

Glad you are happy in your new city; for now at least.

[scania]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

At 24, how much time could you have really given? Sorry, but your complaints make you sound really immature. Invest more than a few years and rent dollars in a place and then come back and lecture us.

Glad you are happy in your new city; for now at least.

You can't really listen to this guy. As a college graduate, I for one wouldn't want Midtown or anywhere else to be filled with mostly recent college graduates. That wouldnt be a vibrant city, it would be one step up from a college town. Even his city that he claims to love isn't that way. He also doesn't realize that most college graduates move away from the city that they attend school for their first job. Again, it's the same in San Fran. His statements makes me wonder if he's even a college graduate, simply by the way of his reasoning. This is the same guy that feels good about signing an asbestos waiver.

[AtlantaMustang]

I think we should give Simms a little leeway on what was said. I mean, being in Atlanta there are days I absolutely hate this city, even though I do actually love this place. Now that he has left he can give us some different perspectives. Just sometimes people get fed up with certain things and need to let loose. Simms has given us great information over the time he's been on the thread and I think we need to appreciate that and continue to take in his views even if they get a little pessimistic or frustrated sometimes.

[scania]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

I think we should give Simms a little leeway on what was said. I mean, being in Atlanta there are days I absolutely hate this city, even though I do actually love this place. Now that he has left he can give us some different perspectives. Just sometimes people get fed up with certain things and need to let loose. Simms has given us great information over the time he's been on the thread and I think we need to appreciate that and continue to take in his views even if they get a little pessimistic or frustrated sometimes.

Just because someone has done good things in the past, doesn't mean that person is good and or will be good in the future. I hope Atlanta won't downgrade to giving us his "Plain Jane" status that he for some reason thinks we should have...keep in mind I've lived in a few major cities here in the U.S. and his some of his views/statements are simply BS. If you read some of my recent post, I explain how some of the things he is saying about San Fran is totally BULL.

[atlantaguy]

^And as a white guy, the racist crap totally turns me off - BIG time. That basically negates just about everything for me.

[shivtim]

^but he said Atlanta only *almost* made him racist.

[simms3_redux]

I've officially been kicked out of Atlanta...oh well. I'm almost 25 I must clarify I won't let the door hit me on the way out!

Before I go, though, a few questions to ponder:

1) Is Atlanta's current building boom really even historical for Atlanta standards?

2) Is the job market really that robust in Atlanta?

3) Is there a crime problem in Atlanta?

4) Is there an education problem, and is there a chance this could translate into local attitudes and mentalities?

5) Is it possible that Tech students aren't as bad of neighbors as they are made out to be? Is it possible that Tech students have provided the impetus for the Westside and for Tech Square? Is it possible, Scania, that I never said MOST of Midtown should comprise of students?? But that more students should be welcome in Midtown in student housing? (especially if it might reduce highway noise for some Plaza residents, put more decent people on the sidewalks, and raise land values overall?)

Scania, I know you have a disregard for me especially because I criticized your building where you are invested, and I apologize for that, but you honestly think I'm a clueless idiot because my opinions clash with yours and because I'm basically only 25? I guess I shouldn't draw any comparisons between SF and elsewhere unless I live in Atlanta and have a few lawyer friends who live out there. I work in RE here, and have been travelling here for a while. My whole job depends on me gaining knowledge of the city, quickly, which requires me to network, explore, work and live in the city. I guess I still don't know anything about my surroundings!

And to all of you guys...this (SF) city actually embraces the 20-somethings and considers this group to be knowledgeable and capable. It's not quite the same 20-somethings group that's found in Atlanta. By nature of the tech boom, there's a huge migration of big time talent here. Many of these 20-somethings are well-traveled, highly educated, already self-made millionaires by nature of starting and selling businesses. You do have that in Atlanta to a degree, as well, and the RE/design community embraces that to a smaller degree...I just wish for young people's sakes that the predominant way of thinking in Atlanta wasn't so traditional, which is why Georgia Tech in particular is such a huge asset to the city (if only Atlanta can find a way to keep its local university graduates in the city!...)

And the fact that you all think I'm some racist asshole for bringing up the term "hood-rich" and my favorite, "ghetto chic," and crime in the city is simply childish at best. Most of my rant was directed at over-extended pretentious white people (remember - it all stemmed from a post that the COA at Plaza Midtown was concerned about being so close to student housing for Georgia Tech)! If there weren't a people problem (either on the renter or buyer side) then every developer would be mad-rushing Midtown like they are Seattle right now. Relatively speaking, Nashville has more going on in terms of development. Raleigh does. Austin does. Certainly Dallas and Houston. Everybody just expects to be burned in Atlanta now...it's happened to too many people across all asset types, especially office and condos. We've never really had an infill rental boom before so we'll have to see (thank you sheer size of Atlanta and low interest rates for allowing developers to proceed with raising and allocating equity to the market). The rates being underwritten in these new developments are so much higher than what has already been hit or miss in the market. The job growth isn't quite there, the cost of living in the city has increased and wages haven't, so it will be interesting to watch this one. The market is defined by the people, and the people are not ensuring healthy happy projects.

FTR, I was a lot more integrated in the city than most. Despite being a major crime victim on MARTA (battery and assault), I was still a regular rider (occasional busses and all) even with a new car in the garage. I think you'll find that most white people avoid the transit altogether when they can and use acronyms jokingly. I voted for Lisa Borders when the conversation I kept hearing by PC whites was that Mary Norwood was the "only" candidate, but shhh don't tell anyone. I was totally being tongue-in-cheek about the city almost turning me racist, but there were related aspects of it that got old and wore me down like a constant barrage (between several horrible neighbors, a couple of crime events that hit home, local events ruined/cancelled by bad people, the fact that we can't all talk about this openly without being called racist, etc).

[ATLswede]

Not to be rude or a nazi, but this whole conversation seems more apropos to the "Atlanta Community Discussion" thread than the projects thread. I don't mind just skimming and jumping over occassional conversations, but this one has gone on for over a week and consumed several pages. I'd prefer for this thread to keep its focus on specific projects, but that's just my two cents...

[Inman Parker]

1) Is Atlanta's current building boom really even historical for Atlanta standards? I guess it depends on how you define "current building boom". In reality, the boom hasnt really stopped, it was just slowed by the recession. If we are talking about big picture, yes, Atlanta's boom is very historic. The population of the city has more than doubled since 1990. It takes a while for infrastructure to catch up to a boom like that, especially in a city as poorly laid out as Atlanta.

2) Is the job market really that robust in Atlanta? Depends on what you are comparing it to. Compared to NYC, Chicago, SF? no. Compared to Cincinnati, Nashville, Charlotte, etc? yes. Atlanta has one of the highest number of fortune 500's in the country. By far, the largest hub of legal, accounting and consulting jobs in the SE. Their financial sector is the second largest in the SE behind Charlotte, which has the second largest in the country.

3) Is there a crime problem in Atlanta? yes, I dont think anyone could deny that Atlanta is a dangerous city. It always has been and is safer now that it was 15 years ago. It nowhere near where it needs to be but it is getting there.

4) Is there an education problem, and is there a chance this could translate into local attitudes and mentalities? In Atlanta in general? no. You have to realize that fewer than 50% of the population is from here. Your idea of an "Atlantan" is really just a very new mix of people from all over. This is a big, diverse and very young city which is impossible to blanket like that. Are there extremes in Atlanta (and really Georgia overall)? yes, there is a large population of lower income citizens with an extreme education problem, worst than other places. The cause of that is debatable for sure and not isolated to Atlanta alone. Really, you could see this trend in most of the south and are many things that have caused this.

5) Is it possible that Tech students aren't as bad of neighbors as they are made out to be? Is it possible that Tech students have provided the impetus for the Westside and for Tech Square? Is it possible, Scania, that I never said MOST of Midtown should comprise of students?? But that more students should be welcome in Midtown in student housing? (especially if it might reduce highway noise for some Plaza residents, put more decent people on the sidewalks, and raise land values overall?) I have no idea if Tech students will make good neighbors, but cant you sympathize with someone that is nervous about a mid-rise building full of college kids living next door? It not that complicated. There is a stigma of college kids being a little bit more rowdy, true or not, than the average professional.

What exactly do you expect the city of Atlanta to do to keep the graduates of local universities in the city? Most Emory kids of from out of state, often out of the region, and choose to go closer to home after school. Ga Tech is one of the best technical universities in the world. Some kids stay here and many others pursue opportunities all over the world. Atlanta is without question the largest jobs hub in the SE region. If a student wants to stay in the southeast, they will most likely stay here. If they dont, there is nothing the city can do to change that.

Does Atlanta have problems? yes, lots of them, particularly crime. Is it getting better? yes, believe it or not, it is. These things take time. Particularly in Atlanta's case where a large portion of the city was abandoned by a portion of the population in the 50's and 60's. Think about what I said above. The population has approximately doubled since 1990. We're talking almost 3 million new people. That is completely insane. HUGE population boom. Infrastructure and culturally the city hasnt settled yet. In a sense, this city is still just building its framework. It not fair to compare an already built house (NYC, San Fran, Chicago, Boston) to one that is just now taking shape.

[Tuckerman]

Inman Parker has it right. Comparing cities is almost always a waste of time. Sometimes contrasting them is useful and informative. It is quite clear that any city whose population has grown swiftly will have certain characteristics related to the time period of great growth. That is why NYC and Chicago look the way the do. They experienced rapid growth at a particular point in time that was characterized by heavy immigration, changing industrial bases and trains and streetcars as the base for transportation. That period of rapid growth is now long over for both cities and over the years they have build infrastructure in response to that growth - but, and that is the point, they didn't have that infrastructure during the growth. Now contrast Atlanta - an important city in the SE in the 50s and 60s, but not that much population. Now a huge sprawled metro area with perhaps 2-3 time that earlier population base. It will take time to develop the infrastructure that befits a city of this size.
When we moved from Edinburgh (Scotland that is) to Atlanta in 1992 the contrast was incredible. Everything I admired in Edinburgh (and it is a small but important city of note) was made by people who were long dead. We lived in the "New Town" - built at in the Georgian period at the end of the 18th Century - we were living in the first suburb! - now the center of 'downtown" Edinburgh. Imagine the shock to move to a place where a shop would have a sign saying "A tradition since May." But the contrast was that Atlanta was and remains incredibly dynamic - you live here 20 years and it is not the same city. It is not fully cooked, still in the oven.

[smArTaLlone]

Novare has made some much needed improvements to the 100 6th Street parking deck.





http://midtown.patch.com/articles/100-6th-street

[nature's calling]

Christ, that's horrendous.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by nature's calling

Christ, that's horrendous.

Where's the "Like" button? Lol.