Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[Future Mayor]

That actually doesn't surprise me. I've actually heard from several commercial brokers over the years that co-star doesn't produce very reliable data for the SL Market. So I am more apt to trust Commerce.

The report actually states that the total vacancy in the CBD is 20.7% in 2012, while the Class A in the CBD is at 14.6%

At 14.6% Class A vacancy rate downtown, that explains why the PAC tower is only proposed at 20 stories. 8-10% is consider full occupancy in the commercial office space realm. We also have to take into consideration that while 14% doesn't seem that big, 14% today is a much larger total square footage than 14% just a few years ago, with the addition of 222, the new Gateway building and the Boston, Newhouse and Deseret Bank building all coming back online as class A space, they have significantly increased the total square footage available.

It's not as if developers are just "afraid" to build something taller, it is simply about economics. Most commercial ventures, such as the PAC tower require a minimum percentage of pre-leased square footage, plus at least 10-20% of investor money before they can get financing on the building construction. A bank or commercial lender won't lend money on a project that isn't pre-leased to their set percentage requirement, it's not that the developer doesn't want to go taller, in the long run it would be more beneficial to them, it's simply that they are unable to get the required commitments in a specific time frame.

222 went up only because they had a pre lease agreement with Goldman. As one of my previous comments said, if the developers were able to lure a corporate headquarters or a regional headquarters to relocate to SLC, they could most likely increase the pre leased square footage and overall height.

That is why the Wells Fargo tower was built as tall as it was, when it was. It was a corporate headquarters, and American Stores was going to occupy well more than the required pre lease percentage, thus they were able to get funding for so much height and total square footage.

[UtahProjects]

Companies build in the suburbs for the same reason individuals do - it's cheaper (for now). At least all the new tech/office developments are going up around the same area (Draper/Lehi). Many of the proposals so far have been much better than a typical office park, including TODs and mixed-use developments. The random and scattered office parks that serve only one purpose are the worst.

[VelvetElvis]

I was in SLC this last weekend. I arrived on Sunday and was very hungry. During my other recent trips to SL I hadn't had the chance to stop in at City Creek so I thought I would finally check it out. I'm not naive, I knew some stuff would be closed, but I didn't think the ENTIRE place was mothballed on Sundays! Look, I have no problem with private entities closing or opening whenever they want, and I respect religious beliefs, so I support the LDS church's decision to close the place, but it was eye opening. I parked in the only open CC parking garage. I figured I'd find about the same percentage of the place up and running. I wandered around for 20 minutes looking for a place to eat that was open. Even the shops that face out from the block were closed. There were very few people downtown. One of the few groups that passed me was just as confused as I was. One of the younger guys turned to the group in disbelief and said "is the entire city closed?" So here is my feedback, I've always been bullish on SLC's potential, but for the first time, I think SLC's future (in the core) is very limited. I know my opinion is of no importance, but that's just how I feel. I think SLC shouldn't waist time trying to be conventionally urban, 'cause it 'aint happening. I think it will continue to be an odd place, and as such should consider the major dynamics at play and really embrace them. What that would look like, well, you creative SLCers have to figure it out. But don't try to be something you'll never be. The typical urban city is 24/7 and SLC isn't even 9-5/7.

[gusam26]

^^^^ its So embarrassing When I have family over and I Take Them out to show them around and all there is to show is a ghost town. As a Non Utah native and not Mormon this Is Still something I can't get use too. I relocated here From L.A and a lot of my Family did as well and boy is that still weird. I have no mormon Friends I dont Get this Not to be disrespectful but The more I live here the more I feel this is not a place to live if You are not Mormon in your mid 2O and a minority.

[redzeppelin]

Originally Posted by VelvetElvis

I'm not naive, I knew some stuff would be closed, but I didn't think the ENTIRE place was mothballed on Sundays!

That's pretty similar to my experience last year in Hamburg, Germany. And also my experience the previous year in Heidelberg. It's not as drastic as SLC, but in both cities I'd guess that about 85% of retail shops and over 50% of eateries in the city center were closed on Sunday. And many of those that did open didn't do so until later in the day. It took me half an hour to find breakfast in Heidelberg--even McD's was closed IIRC. I would describe Hamburg as a 24/6 city, and I think that's pretty standard in Europe. They value a day off more than Americans do. I think it's really an American thing -- and a recent one at that -- to expect everything to be open on Sunday.

[Twothirty8]

Originally Posted by gusam26

^^^^ its So embarrassing When I have family over and I Take Them out to show them around and all there is to show is a ghost town. As a Non Utah native and not Mormon this Is Still something I can't get use too. I relocated here From L.A and a lot of my Family did as well and boy is that still weird. I have no mormon Friends I dont Get this Not to be disrespectful but The more I live here the more I feel this is not a place to live if You are not Mormon in your mid 2O and a minority.

I originally am from SLC but have lived all over the world and now live in Avignon, France. I can tell you that most cities completely shut down on Sunday and Mondays in a lot of the cities I have lived and I like it, especially in Europe. It gives it a certain distinction of being laid back and not all crazy about making money all the time. So relax, Utah is Utah for a reason, and the city is already a good size and is growing at a good rate with lots of cool developments coming up. One of my favorite things about SLC is that it is a super clean city for its size and people take pride in it. Which is a lot more than ican say for most cities he same size or bigger. Also, why would anyone want to live in LA, I would take salt lake any day over LA!

[UtahProjects]

Originally Posted by delts145

Well, around 20 floors of office space, but also you have to account for a very lofty shared theater lobby... right? I don't think it's going to be shorter than 222, possibly a little taller, when one considers a very stylish and vertically spacious entry. Visually speaking from the street level perspective, having something on that corner of around the same height as 22, that also engages that corner as beautifully as 222 engages it's frontage would make me very happy. Though I admit, that from a skyline distant perspective, a taller tower would look outstanding if located on that corner.

I do want to see Salt Lake's CBD break the glass ceiling on height. Many cities, including Denver have broken that height barrier long before their greater Metro's reached the three million mark.

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Only 4 of Denver's top 31 tallest buildings were built after 1990. Building shorter has definitely become the norm for all but the largest of cities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_Denver

[Merewether]

This thread suggested a quick survey of metro areas (more precisely combined metro areas) about the size of SLC. Putting SLC in the middle we have :
Kansas City (25% larger)
Indianapolis
Columbus
Las Vegas
Austin
Raleigh
SLC
Milwaukee
Nashville
Greensboro
Louisville
Oklahoma City
Hartford

From a quick look at websites from equivalent of Downtown Alliance/ local tourist authority and some scans of Google maps it seems that the only downtowns with substantial retail are
Indianapolis (has a mall with many of same stores as CCC, but no dept store or Nordstrom-type speciality store. Is open Sunday.)
Milwaukee (small mall, indpt shops, majority open Sunday)
Austin (indpt stores, some chains, open Sunday.)
Las Vegas seems a special case. Seems to have outlet mall near downtown but few shops downtown.

The other eight have limited (sometimes very scanty) downtown shopping and limited Sunday hours (some seem to be M-F).

I didn't check restaurant hours but suspect it might be similar. Like Salt Lake, the independent restaurants open Sunday may be on edge of downtown in gentrifying areas.

CCC is open 92% of the hours of the Circle Center in Indianapolis, the apparent winner in downtown retail for our size city. It does have a bigger selection of stores. If we didn't have CCC, our indpt. downtown stores would be average for this size metro. So maybe it's not that people expect downtown stores to be open Sundays but they expect malls to be open Sundays.

As someone who worked Sundays for many years, I think one quiet day a week is civilized.

[StevenF]

Here is something To think about, people in this country expect to have places open on Sunday's but when it comes to the idea of having to work a Sunday many hate the idea.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by StevenF

Here is something To think about, people in this country expect to have places open on Sunday's but when it comes to the idea of having to work a Sunday many hate the idea.

It's kind of the chicken and the egg here. What came first?, companies willing to be open on Sundays to try to make an extra buck, or people demand stores to be open on sudays hence why they need workers to work on Sundays.

I always hated those who would go see movies on Christmas day since that makes it so those 17 year old kids can't spend time with their families because people can't wait a day to see a movie. IMHO.

[delts145]

photo bump

Originally Posted by UtahProjects

A fresh view of Salt Lake's skyline:


By Utah Images - Douglas Pulsipher http://www.flickr.com/photos/utahimages/8144673919/

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by UtahProjects

The only other hope is a local headquarter (e.g Zions, lds church) building a very tall building simply for the prestige and pride it has in its community.

I always had my hopes on a few of these local companies/church to one day out grow the buildings they're in right now.
Here are a few to keep an eye out for.......

1. Zions Bank: Moved into the former Gateway East tower back in 2003ish. Not sure how many floors they take up in the rename 19-story Zions bank tower, but being one if not the biggest bank here in Utah I can see them out growing that tower in the future that could lead them to build a taller tower of their own. Kind of like what they are doing in Boise, only twice as tall.
2. LDS Church HQ : We've all known for sometime that the church has out grown it's 28-story church office building. Since then the church as brought out a few other buildings around downtown and the valley to make room. Rumors are that the church will one day building a 2nd church office building tower somewhere near it's first.
3. UWTC : Utah World Trade Center group just brought the former 19-story Eaglegate tower at City Creek Center so it will be awhile before they will want to build their own. Not sure how many floors they take up, but again we have a fast growing company/ies in a limited 19-story building, so I could see them one day building their own skyscraper.
4. Goldman Sachs: Right now they take up 7 out of 21 floors of 222 South Main. Again another company that could out grow and would may want it's very own building.

Just a few right off the top of my head. Maybe there's others out there as well. But those are the biggest four that I can think of. Out of those four I just listed my guess would be that the LDS Church could be the first to to build their own. Why?.......they have the money AND they already outgrown their tower, plus they have offices in several other buildings. Timeline is anybody's guess.

[VelvetElvis]

Amazing photo of the skyline Delts... So, I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest suggesting there is something wrong with closing on Sunday. And I think everyone has been pretty respectful with their comments. But to be clear, I was surprised at how completely the city core was shut down. It looked like a good many of the other typical shops and restaurants (excluding taverns and bars) had followed suit. So it wasn't just CC itself, but it also seems to have a small ring of influence extending out a few more blocks in every direction. This is fine. Cities don't all have to be the same, but it's hard to argue that this feature of SLC has many analogs in other places. I appreciate the hard (though limited) facts that were provided on similar size cities and the anecdotal evidence from Europe. But I still think there are some fundamental differences. (And while it makes my no more of an authority, I have also lived abroad and in 5 different states.) I guess I'm suggesting that SLC needs to advertise its peculiarities better. Maybe there is a Fortune 500 company that wants to locate in a town that boards up on Sundays -and I'm not being sarcastic. Maybe the city could start a PR campaign about visiting SLC on the weekends for some "small town quiet in a mid size city." This is what I don't hear about SLC. "Hey, it's like a week of siesta condensed into a weekend!" Maybe they could try something like that. I just didn't realize I would have so many more choices in Draper on a Sunday than I would in the city core. Next time I need an apocalyptic feeling walk around a city, I will visit SLC on a Sunday. That does sound harsh, but kind of cool too.

[Comrade]

I think 'being closed on Sundays' could be the biggest obstacle with downtown Salt Lake City. My hope is that changes the more residents (potentially outsiders who are fine with shopping and eating on Sundays) - but right now, the reality is, the weekend in Utah consists of one day - Saturday. That's it. It's always been that way and will probably continue to be that way. That makes it difficult to build a truly vibrant core because you're looking at such a narrow window.

Here's a photo of Denver's 16th Street Mall on a Sunday:


http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/4328702 - A busy day in central Denver despite being a Sunday.

You'd rarely see something like that in downtown SLC on a Sunday - especially in the fall (this photo looks to be from October). It just doesn't happen. Which is going to limit the type of downtown we want because, as I said, right now, we're a weekday downtown and, mostly in the summer, only marginally a weekend downtown - except our weekends are just one day instead of two.

Like I said, I hope that changes the more people move into the city - but right now, it's clear this is one stereotype of Utah that is absolutely true. Maybe it's a good one ... maybe it isn't.

[Orlando]

I think they should at least keep a few restaurants open in the food court of City Creek Center on Sunday, along with a few shops, too. It is a church owned property, but keeping a few things open on Sundays is being a good neighbor, and is at least somewhat understanding of the out of town traveler who needs a place to eat at, etc. At least they could do is put up some helpful signs on Sunday that explain why most of the shops, etc. are closed on Sunday, and then offer some helpful visitor information and a map to find food nearby, etc.

[Boz]

Hey just wanted to put this shot up here--it's the banner mural downtown that I think someone around here mentioned some time back. Took it today:

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I think they should at least keep a few restaurants open in the food court of City Creek Center on Sunday, along with a few shops, too. It is a church owned property, but keeping a few things open on Sundays is being a good neighbor, and is at least somewhat understanding of the out of town traveler who needs a place to eat at, etc. At least they could do is put up some helpful signs on Sunday that explain why most of the shops, etc. are closed on Sunday, and then offer some helpful visitor information and a map to find food nearby, etc.

"Dear visitor, Due to our fear towards our fearful god who told us not to work on Sundays we are sorry to say but all of downtown SLC is closed. Sorry for the inconvenience, however there are some places open down in Sandy, Enjoy."

[Boz]

A few more shots from earlier today:








Slideshow of 8 photos Here

[airhero]

Wow! Such a clear day! Thanks for taking those Boz. I just love the mountains so much. I never get tired of them.

[delts145]

Fantastic pics Boz. Please keep it up. From this perspective, 99 West definitely added some ump to the
East/West perspective. Now, we just need that new Convention Hotel at RoyalWood to widen the western flow
even more.


Pic By Boz

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