Halifax Central Library | 27 m | 6 fl | Completed

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

...Also in those minutes is the info that they did not prepare a detailed cost estimate of the palace before making the budget ask. They used notional estimates and comparable projects but did not do a line by line detailed construction budget. ...

I would expect that comparable projects and cost/square foot would be appropriate prior to construction drawings appropriate for tender.

I would also expect that construction drawings appropriate for tender would have enough information for detailed elemental cost estimating, but that to do a Class A estimate at concept, schematic design, or design development stages would be premature.

I feel like the budget would have to be approved prior to hiring the architect, and thus before detailed materials and assembly information was available... likely at, or after, the space (and maybe functional?) programming done by HOK.

At what point in the process did the budget ask you describe occur?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If you read the library Board minutes from the past year, they contain the admission that the tenders for certain trades came in over budget by about $2 million. They blamed collusion among the contractors. Who knew?

Also in those minutes is the info that they did not prepare a detailed cost estimate of the palace before making the budget ask. They used notional estimates and comparable projects but did not do a line by line detailed construction budget. That is why I expect far more such items in the future and would expect that the total budget will be far in excess of the stated $55 million.

How much are the feds contributing? Is this more locally expensive than Nova Centre?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Okay? But everybody cries foul over the convention centre (mostly paid for by the feds, aka non-NS tax dollars).

I'm just trying to illustrate that public spending, budgeted or not, has been cited as a reason not to build Nova Centre or the stadium. The reality is that everything costs money.

I'm okay with it, but Keith did beg the question that other funds would be sought.

Its hypocritical for people to be for this project and against the others. Libraries, commerce centres, and stadiums are all important... that is why any REAL city has them all.

I'm moving this forward because I think that I make valid points. There is no argument against a stadium if everybody is in favour of a library at a similar cost.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I'm moving this forward because I think that I make valid points. There is no argument against a stadium if everybody is in favour of a library at a similar cost.

The argument would be if a stadium would justify the cost—a library is used by every day by a huge swath of people, creates a repository of information and physical artifacts, and provides gathering space for community groups, lectures, meetings, rallies, clubs, etc. It's also a draw to the neighbourhood around it.

Stadiums only provide public benefit with a thriving sports franchise in place, and they tend to create desolate zones in the neighbourhoods nearby (not always, but usually). Public funding for stadiums is way riskier, and there's a history of them becoming huge civic money pits. Look at Edmonton's situation right now. As this Globe writer put it after Edmonton Oilers owner tried to extract more public money for a new Edmonton stadium: "Maybe it’s just a terrible misread of how public sentiment has shifted these past few years—squarely away from taxpayer subsidies so that billionaire owners can finance new homes for their professional sport play-things."

If there was a good chance of us getting an NHL team, I'd change my tune, but frankly, I think the GTA is more likely to get a second team before Halifax gets anything.

[ILoveHalifax]

Not everybody would use a stadium, but with a CFL franchise, most people will get excited with civic pride and will follow to some extent the teams progress.
We would get far more second hand (non attendees) participation then from a library

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The argument would be if a stadium would justify the cost—a library is used by every day by a huge swath of people, creates a repository of information and physical artifacts, and provides gathering space for community groups, lectures, meetings, rallies, clubs, etc. It's also a draw to the neighbourhood around it.

Stadiums only provide public benefit with a thriving sports franchise in place, and they tend to create desolate zones in the neighbourhoods nearby (not always, but usually). Public funding for stadiums is way riskier, and there's a history of them becoming huge civic money pits. Look at Edmonton's situation right now. As this Globe writer put it after Edmonton Oilers owner tried to extract more public money for a new Edmonton stadium: "Maybe it’s just a terrible misread of how public sentiment has shifted these past few years—squarely away from taxpayer subsidies so that billionaire owners can finance new homes for their professional sport play-things."

If there was a good chance of us getting an NHL team, I'd change my tune, but frankly, I think the GTA is more likely to get a second team before Halifax gets anything.

I see the arguments against... but somebody's preferences for going to a library versus sports doesn't make one better than the other. A library doesn't employ as many people or produce as much economic output. Even if somebody at the top is benefiting, its less direct due to the way the system works. I've worked the metro centre and understand how everything happens. I doubt the library has events that employ 40-50 temporary workers each making about $200 in that shift (and on a regular basis). This is great for the people who need work of this nature. These news stories never cover this reality. I've paid the bills with that income in the past.

Furthermore, the internet makes books somewhat obsolete (I read pdfs all the time). Its really a taxpayer subsidy for people who don't want to pay for books etc. The arguments can really be made either way, I'm just saying we should have both. University libraries are much better than any other type of library. I can't really support them buying books like Tom Clancy and that sort of crap.

Either way, somebody is getting subsidized. Otherwise there would be entirely private models for both.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

HRM gets the majority of its revenue from property taxes, which are imposed supposedly to provide services to those property owners. That is the role of a city, not to build municipal monuments.

So by this logic, anyone who does not own property should never expect anything from the municipal government?

[Nouvellecosse]

Of course, anyone who pays to live within the municipality pays property taxes, whether it be directly to the city or indirectly included in rent. And of course, a library is certainly a service expected by most direct or indirect property tax payers.

Besides a library is about far more than books, as they offer everything from a quiet place to go and relax or flip through magazines, access separate rooms for community meetings, ESL classes, children's activities, computer/internet/printing/WIFI access, computer training, CD/DVD borrowing, reference material like car owner's manuals and hard cover encyclopedias, since as much as we wish we could, we can't rely on Wikipedia for eveything.

I find it hard to believe there are many people who never use a library, unless they either aren't aware of the available services, or are intentionally avoiding it for some reason.

[ILoveHalifax]

I just want you all to know, I have lived the last 45 years without using a library. No I am not illiterite. I prefer to buy my books if I want to read. Don't read much these days, as I generally only read on beaches or planes and not doing much of that these days. When I used to beach and travel I either bought new or used.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Of course, anyone who pays to live within the municipality pays property taxes, whether it be directly to the city or indirectly included in rent. And of course, a library is certainly a service expected by most direct or indirect property tax payers.

First I expect sidewalks, police and fire protection, well-maintained roads, garbage collection, the list goes on. A library is well down such a list.

Besides a library is about far more than books, as they offer everything from a quiet place to go and relax or flip through magazines, access separate rooms for community meetings, ESL classes, children's activities, computer/internet/printing/WIFI access, computer training, CD/DVD borrowing, reference material like car owner's manuals and hard cover encyclopedias, since as much as we wish we could, we can't rely on Wikipedia for eveything.

But apparently it's OK to rely on this palace for everything, from recording studios to 300 video game consoles. It is a ridiculous level of over-the-top spending.

I find it hard to believe there are many people who never use a library, unless they either aren't aware of the available services, or are intentionally avoiding it for some reason.

I have not set foot in a Halifax public library since the 1980s and in looking back on it the only time I really ever made use of it was when I was in elementary school. If you listened to the chat at the hearings on this project it became clear that there is only a small core group of people - I won't call them cheapskates, though that tag would fit - who use the library to obtain media on the cheap (for them, not the taxpayer). The role of library services has changed greatly since the days of the 1800s, yet we seem to have no problem with spending more and more on fringe activities for them. I question why that premise has not been challenged.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I have not set foot in a Halifax public library since the 1980s and in looking back on it the only time I really ever made use of it was when I was in elementary school. If you listened to the chat at the hearings on this project it became clear that there is only a small core group of people - I won't call them cheapskates, though that tag would fit - who use the library to obtain media on the cheap (for them, not the taxpayer). The role of library services has changed greatly since the days of the 1800s, yet we seem to have no problem with spending more and more on fringe activities for them. I question why that premise has not been challenged.

That's fine for you, but 44 per cent of the HRM's population has an active library membership, and in-person visits were 2.2 million last year. The library provides not just books and other physical media (though it does provide that) but online research portals for academic and historical documents that most people would never have access to otherwise, archival information, community meeting spaces, etc, etc, etc.

Libraries aren't just big buildings full of books, and their value to a city goes well beyond what you're imagining.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That's fine for you, but 44 per cent of the HRM's population has an active library membership, and in-person visits were 2.2 million last year. The library provides not just books and other physical media (though it does provide that) but online research portals for academic and historical documents that most people would never have access to otherwise, archival information, community meeting spaces, etc, etc, etc.

Libraries aren't just big buildings full of books, and their value to a city goes well beyond what you're imagining.

I don't believe that stat. Furthermore, its a duplication of university resources that we already pay for. The real question is should Dal have free library access to everyone?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I don't believe that stat. Furthermore, its a duplication of university resources that we already pay for. The real question is should Dal have free library access to everyone?

Those stats are fourth page down on this doc. Choose to believe them or not, but unless the library is lying, I'm sure they're real—Canadian library systems are mostly very well used.

Why should Dal provide free access to everyone? Especially as their government funding is reduced and more revenues come from tuition?

[alps]

I used the Halifax library all the time. Doing research on local topics is one function it serves uniquely well. Been spending a lot of time recently in the Hong Kong Central Library for the same purpose. Really high quality service, well used by all ages. I think libraries are still very relevant, they're an important social service, and I bet the prominent Queen St location and unique architecture will draw in loads of people and make it a very successful community centre.

[mcmcclassic]

A couple photos I took from my balcony. I tried to zoom in on the roof to show the intricacy of the steel floor topping off the building.

[kph06]

Watching the webcam this afternoon, it looked like Irving was dropping off parts to their 300-ton mobile crane at the front of the building - the jib is there now. I suspect the top floor will go up soon after this crane arrives.

[SekishikiMeikaiHa]

Weekly updates:

[Nifta]

Libraries are a god-send. My wife and young 2yr old daughter frequently go along to play sessions / Kids theatre groups. She also devours the kid's books. We probably get through a dozen each month. That'd cost us a fortune if we had to buy them.

Most people I know are members, so I can easily believe the stat. I'm actually surprised its not higher.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Nifta

Libraries are a god-send. My wife and young 2yr old daughter frequently go along to play sessions / Kids theatre groups. She also devours the kid's books. We probably get through a dozen each month. That'd cost us a fortune if we had to buy them.

Most people I know are members, so I can easily believe the stat. I'm actually surprised its not higher.

Yeah ditto for us. We walk our little guy down to reading/music programs at the library all the time. The old cramped space at the old library aren't exactly ideal though, so it will be great to have some new programming spaces that are actually made for kids in the new library.

[RyeJay]

It would be interesting to see some opinion polling regarding how Haligonians feel about the costs and size of this library. Everyone with whom I've spoken is quite excited about this public development. Truthfully, the only negative opinions I've personally encountered were people wishing the library was bigger.

I am likely getting a biased opinion sample however, because I usually only get to speak with students and parents with children. It's not often I converse with older, single, childless demographics.