Calgary Public Transit II

[ByeByeBaby]

I've been to the Pearl District in Portland as well. It's nice. The streetcars are slightly faster than walking, assuming you don't get stuck for five minutes behind a double-parked UPS guy like one I was on. I appreciate that streetcars can play a role in spurring urban redevelopment -- although a much bigger improvement would be if, for instance, the permitting process were easier and cheaper to redevelop two lots in an inner city neighbourhood than to redevelop two square miles of grassland.

Streetcars seem to me to be best if they can be built with at least partially protected right-of-way, so they run as a mini-LRT (with a mini budget). The route that always caught my eye was 17th Avenue east, not west. With a transit lane in the plans east of Deerfoot, a streetcar that stops a few times in Inglewood and the East Village would be a good link to that part of the city.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I've been to the Pearl District in Portland as well. It's nice. The streetcars are slightly faster than walking, assuming you don't get stuck for five minutes behind a double-parked UPS guy like one I was on. I appreciate that streetcars can play a role in spurring urban redevelopment -- although a much bigger improvement would be if, for instance, the permitting process were easier and cheaper to redevelop two lots in an inner city neighbourhood than to redevelop two square miles of grassland.

Streetcars seem to me to be best if they can be built with at least partially protected right-of-way, so they run as a mini-LRT (with a mini budget). The route that always caught my eye was 17th Avenue east, not west. With a transit lane in the plans east of Deerfoot, a streetcar that stops a few times in Inglewood and the East Village would be a good link to that part of the city.

maybe starting in the formerly 'crack cul-de-sac' joining the far east end of Stephen Ave to the EV, Inglewood, and 17th ave SE

[RyLucky]

It would be great if the little Heritage Park streetcar ran all the way to Chinook

[MalcolmTucker]

quote of the week: the portlandia streetcar

"I think frequency is an overrated thing. Let's say there's a 20-minute [wait]. You can look on your phone, wait inside and have a beer."

-- Portland Streetcar Citizens Committee member
Peter Finley Fry, justifying the 18-minute frequency
of the Portland Streetcar's new eastside loop,
quoted last August in Willamette Week.

Note that Mr Fry is referring to a very slow service (the original segment of the Portland Streetcar is now scheduled at around 6 miles/hr) which is useful only for relatively short trips around the greater downtown area.

source: human transit

Calgary could invest money much more productively in anything than streetcars. Now if a route is maxed out for capacity (bus every five minutes or more), it might make sense from an operational cost to move to higher capacity streetcars if you are willing to take the frequnecy hit and the utility relocation cost isn't crazy. (streetcars are heavy and you don't want to have something major underneath one that may require maintenance)

[sim]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

source: human transit

Calgary could invest money much more productively in anything than streetcars. Now if a route is maxed out for capacity (bus every five minutes or more), it might make sense from an operational cost to move to higher capacity streetcars if you are willing to take the frequnecy hit and the utility relocation cost isn't crazy. (streetcars are heavy and you don't want to have something major underneath one that may require maintenance)

That's assuming that a streetcar wouldn't induce an increase in ridership - which it most certainly will.

If you are going to replace a bus route with a streetcar and do absolutely nothing else to increase the level of service, which you wouldn't do, then this might be a fair comparison. So there is no reason why you'd have to automatically take a frequency hit. Of course, much of that could also be done for a bus, but it is less likely to work out and increase ridership to the same degree (comfort, permaneance, intuitiveness, noise, aura, whatever).

That being (simply) said, the true value and justification in streetcars is not a marked increase in mobility, but one of accessibility. They can also reduce noise, and local emissions (and global depending on energy source) and are more energy efficient. Take into consideration green tracks and you can tack a few more benefits on there.

Nor is that how loading works. Yeah they are heavier, but that loading can (is) also be spread out through the rail and sleepers à la characteristic length. I'm not saying that it's a given that you wouldn't have to consider this, but yeah heavier doesn't necessarily mean greater load.

I finally wouldn't only take existing North American streetcar (tram) systems as the standard. Although I can't say to have been in Portland, my understanding is that the average speed is a brisk walk. The ones I am familiar with I have trouble outrunning on my bike.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by sim

That's assuming that a streetcar wouldn't induce an increase in ridership - which it most certainly will.

If you are going to replace a bus route with a streetcar and do absolutely nothing else to increase the level of service, which you wouldn't do, then this might be a fair comparison. So there is no reason why you'd have to automatically take a frequency hit. Of course, much of that could also be done for a bus, but it is less likely to work out and increase ridership to the same degree (comfort, permaneance, intuitiveness, noise, aura, whatever).

That being (simply) said, the true value and justification in streetcars is not a marked increase in mobility, but one of accessibility. They can also reduce noise, and local emissions (and global depending on energy source) and are more energy efficient. Take into consideration green tracks and you can tack a few more benefits on there.

Nor is that how loading works. Yeah they are heavier, but that loading can (is) also be spread out through the rail and sleepers à la characteristic length. I'm not saying that it's a given that you wouldn't have to consider this, but yeah heavier doesn't necessarily mean greater load.

I finally wouldn't only take existing North American streetcar (tram) systems as the standard. Although I can't say to have been in Portland, my understanding is that the average speed is a brisk walk. The ones I am familiar with I have trouble outrunning on my bike.

You bring up some good points, but I'm still not sure where I sit on this one. Streetcars seem like a better user experience, but I can see a lot of practical advantages to buses (most of which have to do with cost and flexibility). In general I need to know more about the cost of implementation and the advantages of the technology for streetcars, although I can see the psychological/marketing advantages (perceived permanence, noise, pollution, nostalgia, safety, etc). So far, I'm still of the opinion that money could be better spent on trees and sidewalks and bike lanes.

I'm going to Portland tomorrow so ill have a chance to try streetcars first hand. Any recommendation for me while I'm there? My plan is food trucks, brewpubs, farmers markets, transit, karaoke, and weirdness, but I don't have any specifics and don't know much about the city and would be open to anything.

[fusili]

I think that any streetcars in Calgary should echo what Toronto has for the Spadina or the St. Clair streetcars. They would have their own lane, and would be fairly frequent. I would imagine a 17th avenue streetcar would actually be quite heavily used, and could have 5-10 minute frequency. They could upgrade consists (from 1 car to 2 or maybe even three) depending on usage. It would also benefit from the use of low-floor LRVs from the SE/NC LRT and the associated maintenance facility. A tie in on 10th near Railtown could serve as the connection between the two systems.

IMO, 17th avenue or 4th street should be the first to go in, as they would have the heaviest ridership.

[MalcolmTucker]

The marginal cost is just not there for the marginal benefit. And once you're talking about right of ways you are not talking about streetcars anymore (Toronto has suffered from mixed names for years).

If Calgary had a blighted neighborhood that we wanted to subsidize redevelopment of through capital investment we could build a streetcar to it. I would argue you could deploy far less capital by persuing neighborhood amentity improvements instead for the same end result.

Now a downtown route with a very limited budget ($15 million per km?) as a demonstrator to see if anyone can deliver would be an interesting P3. Even at $25 miillion per km I think you would get close to the point where replacing the 3 might make sense, or the 1. But I don't think anyone could deliver at that price.

[DizzyEdge]

If you were to put a streetcar on 17th, you would want tracks on 16th and then 15th ave as well, with tracks on the sidestreets between 17th and the other aves. This way you can mitigate the lack of being able to go around obstacles by having an alternate path each block or two.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

If you were to put a streetcar on 17th, you would want tracks on 16th and then 15th ave as well, with tracks on the sidestreets between 17th and the other aves. This way you can mitigate the lack of being able to go around obstacles by having an alternate path each block or two.

That doesn't make any sense. It triples the construction cost for almost no benefit -- the sort of obstacles that block streetcars are things like car accidents; once a streetcar is in the block with the accident, it would have to reverse into traffic to take an alternate path, so basically impossible. It would allow you to produce a two block alternate route for every fenderbender, but that means it isn't actually going to the stops on the route, and I don't have a lot of faith that that can be done quickly enough to deal with the problem. It's certainly not the way anyone anywhere ever has built streetcars as far as I know.

[DizzyEdge]

Ah some of the transit folks in the Toronto forum mentioned alternate tracks was the way the TTC streetcars dealt with blocked lanes, but now that I streetview Toronto it looks like the alternate paths are every km at most, and of course there the alternate tracks aren't a waste since they're likely the main tracks for some other route.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by fusili

I think that any streetcars in Calgary should echo what Toronto has for the Spadina or the St. Clair streetcars. They would have their own lane, and would be fairly frequent. I would imagine a 17th avenue streetcar would actually be quite heavily used, and could have 5-10 minute frequency. They could upgrade consists (from 1 car to 2 or maybe even three) depending on usage. It would also benefit from the use of low-floor LRVs from the SE/NC LRT and the associated maintenance facility. A tie in on 10th near Railtown could serve as the connection between the two systems.

IMO, 17th avenue or 4th street should be the first to go in, as they would have the heaviest ridership.

When I did a revitalization project for 17th during my undergrad, we utilized a tram more for its ability to shuttle passengers/revelers up and down the corridor. Even though the system we created ended up having a circulation role for the greater area, we found a lot of justification from non-RT performance measures. There are lot of people on 17th, a tram would be great for people on pub crawls and shopping sprees and would still be there for locals trying to get around the Beltline.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

If you were to put a streetcar on 17th, you would want tracks on 16th and then 15th ave as well, with tracks on the sidestreets between 17th and the other aves. This way you can mitigate the lack of being able to go around obstacles by having an alternate path each block or two.

A better alternative might be to have the tracks placed in the centre of the carriageway with crossovers every so often. While you would still face issues if both sets of tracks were affected by an accident, you would still be able to get past blockages affecting a single pair of tracks.

[RyLucky]

Novelty routes aside (Westbrook to stampede, Eau Claire to mission to Erlton--- maybe linked through stampede or continued to Inglewood/zoo/bridgeland/renfrew), there might be a case for another 7th ave transit corridor on 10th ave. The SELRT will use 10th ave, and perhaps in the future this ROW could be used for a 17th Ave SE to MRU line that runs through the Beltline in separated LRT fashion a la streetcar.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Novelty routes aside (Westbrook to stampede, Eau Claire to mission to Erlton--- maybe linked through stampede or continued to Inglewood/zoo/bridgeland/renfrew), there might be a case for another 7th ave transit corridor on 10th ave. The SELRT will use 10th ave, and perhaps in the future this ROW could be used for a 17th Ave SE to MRU line that runs through the Beltline in separated LRT fashion a la streetcar.

THe only issue with that is that it would likely mean the loss of 10th ave as a future cycle-track corridor as the ROW for the streetcar + car travel lanes and any parking that is kept would mean little room.

Unless you mix car and streetcar traffic and you run into the problems others have described with why that doesn't work.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by MasterG

THe only issue with that is that it would likely mean the loss of 10th ave as a future cycle-track corridor as the ROW for the streetcar + car travel lanes and any parking that is kept would mean little room.

Unless you mix car and streetcar traffic and you run into the problems others have described with why that doesn't work.

Or cyclists could just use the 13th ave greenway a short distance to the south.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Or cyclists could just use the 13th ave greenway a short distance to the south.

13th greenway is nice, but not optimized for cyclists. No traffic priority or stop signs for N-S traffic on some of the streets, as well as long light waits on 4th and 5th. Plus it is 3 blocks farther south of all the offices and development on 10th. That wouldn't be so bad, but you have the same problem that pedestrians face: significant light priority for 12th and 11th. It has taken me 10mins to cycle from 17th ave to 10th on 7th street due to waiting at the lights for multiple minutes at 17th, 12th and 11th aves. Some of these need to re-calibrated to provide more cross traffic, especially out of rush hour.

[DizzyEdge]

Not exactly public transportation, but:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/...hat+hails+cabs+faster/7987487/story.html

Calgary taxi firms sue over app that hails cabs faster

Companies seek $1 million from founder of FastCab

By Sherri Zickefoose, Calgary Herald February 19, 2013 8:54 PM

CALGARY — Crying “unfair competition,” the city’s top taxi companies are suing a local entrepreneur for $1 million over a smartphone application allowing passengers to bypass dispatch to hail cabs faster.

According to the statement of claim, filed in Court of Queen’s Bench last month, Mayfair, Associated and Checker cab companies are calling the FastCab phone app “unfair competition.”



Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/...+faster/7987487/story.html#ixzz2LPTGY2qV

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MasterG

13th greenway is nice, but not optimized for cyclists. No traffic priority or stop signs for N-S traffic on some of the streets, as well as long light waits on 4th and 5th. Plus it is 3 blocks farther south of all the offices and development on 10th. That wouldn't be so bad, but you have the same problem that pedestrians face: significant light priority for 12th and 11th. It has taken me 10mins to cycle from 17th ave to 10th on 7th street due to waiting at the lights for multiple minutes at 17th, 12th and 11th aves. Some of these need to re-calibrated to provide more cross traffic, especially out of rush hour.

I wonder if the rumored plan to convert these back to two way would mitigate this problem. My walk to work would be 5 minutes shorter if the lights at 10th-12th where better timed.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Not exactly public transportation, but:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/...hat+hails+cabs+faster/7987487/story.html

Calgary taxi firms sue over app that hails cabs faster

Companies seek $1 million from founder of FastCab

By Sherri Zickefoose, Calgary Herald February 19, 2013 8:54 PM

CALGARY — Crying “unfair competition,” the city’s top taxi companies are suing a local entrepreneur for $1 million over a smartphone application allowing passengers to bypass dispatch to hail cabs faster.

According to the statement of claim, filed in Court of Queen’s Bench last month, Mayfair, Associated and Checker cab companies are calling the FastCab phone app “unfair competition.”



Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/technology/...+faster/7987487/story.html#ixzz2LPTGY2qV

I'm glad to see that the city hasn't piled on as other cities have (San Fran, Washington DC, etc.), but it bugs me that one group has a virtual monopoly on cabs in the city.

[freeweed]

Typical response by obsolete businesses.

Someone comes up with a technological innovation to improve the customer experience - SUE THEM!

The Taxi industry is even more of a racket than the music business. And that's saying something.