Atlanta Project Thread IV

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by joecool

I can not believe they are building this crap on P'tree. What a waste. They should have just left the building that was there.

I don't think the building itself is crap but the fact that it is a one-story building taking up a rather large block in such prime Peachtree location is a little depressing.

[smArTaLlone]

New Walton Westside rendering

[joecool]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

I don't think the building itself is crap but the fact that it is a one-story building taking up a rather large block in such prime Peachtree location is a little depressing.

I agree. The building is not crap. I just can't believe they are allowed to build that there. I was under the impression they could build something like that on the midtown mile or on p'tree? I guess as long as it is up to the street they can.

[smArTaLlone]

A sneak peek of the Bohemian House apartments

[atlantaguy]

^Very nice, smArTaLone!

I'm liking the look of all of these new developments in the OFW and adjacent areas.

[scania]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

More on the SPI-16 review of the projects.

This is cool for the kids..but I know a few condo owners who are not thrilled!

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by scania

This is cool for the kids..but I know a few condo owners who are not thrilled!

Why, because of views?

[scania]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

Why, because of views?

No one has mention the views, but a few people feel as if our property value will dwindle and that a lot of people would not want to purchase a condo that close to what essentially will be a dormitory.

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

^Very nice, smArTaLone!

I'm liking the look of all of these new developments in the OFW and adjacent areas.

Good point. I am one that often complains about the way projects are designed but I agree that we have gotten a lot of nice looking proposals of late that are also urban in form. Its appears that most of the intown developers seem to "get it".

[simms3_redux]

^^^LoL. People in Atlanta are so clueless!!!!

I just wasted way too much time for a response. I did the math...the most expensive mortgages in the building are under $1.50psf per month. These Tech students will be paying $3.20-$4.00psf per month to live there. Give these students a fucking break, they'll pay up for your condo there when you want out (that is IF Atlanta decides to try to retain jobs for Tech/Emory students in the city, LoL).

Atlanta almost made me racist. Atlanta blinded me to what's normal behavior. Only in Atlanta can the "young professional/upscale" areas like Midtown and Buckhead be so ghetto. I can only describe the city as ghetto chic. Where I live now is a 4 building highrise complex built in the 60s with a Safeway, a laundromat and a Baskin Robbins in the basement. The paint is peeling in the halls and is still lead-based I think (not to mention I signed an asbestos waiver, LoL). The carpets are a little moldy in the halls. I live in 450 humble SF, pay $2400/mo. That's not normal pricing, I know. What IS normal is the fact that all my neighbors are normal, non-threatening people who work or occasionally if they're elderly live on fixed-income. Lots of foreigners, lots of young profs, some families, and elderly. Haven't noticed what I would call a "pretentious" element or a "ghetto" element - practically ANYWHERE in the city. I haven't felt so safe in a city in so long, and yet longer-term residents here think SF is unsafe or seedy!!! Wow, perceptions.

The 3 biggest detractors to value in Midtown are:

1) Lack of job growth in Atlanta (and especially lack of ability to retain majority of Tech/Emory students)

2) Availability of empty lots (this increases criminal presence in meantime, reduces land prices, and makes new development easier, even without quality job growth)

3) The friggin ghetto culture Atlanta is so well known for. My God, it's like an asset-bubble in the city, except it's a bad culture bubble. So as opposed to stocks, when housing prices increased more people bought houses. In Atlanta, the flashier the area, the more ghetto it becomes. WTF Developers need to stop including marble lobbies, granite countertops, Viking appliances, private elevators, hoards of parking spaces, etc...just make stuff plain jane and advertise walkability. See if that even appeals to the hood-rich or the pretentious MFers who all live on credit. It'll drive them away like mad!

And then for REAL diversity, not just black and white, look to Tech and other college campuses. Get jobs for these people and try to get them into Midtown. THESE are the people you WANT as neighbors, not some of the folks ALREADY living in many of the buildings in Midtown/Buckhead.

I can vouch that the common denominator for all lower-value buildings in Midtown is proximity to vacant lots. I lived in 2 buildings on West Peachtree and 1 on 14th on the other side of Peachtree...guess which building was quieter, had what I would call a "normal" resident profile, felt safer, etc etc If a vacant lot is about to be built on across from Plaza Midtown, that's a good thing!!!

I don't give a fuck if it's student housing. I don't give a fuck if it's subsidized housing for families in legitimate need. I don't even give a fuck if it's subsidized affordable housing with qualifications that reduce the risk of criminal idiots moving in. I live near all this stuff now (even straight up projects), and like I said I haven't felt safer in a long time. I ride the fucking bus at 3 AM by myself...yea try that in Atlanta. If this development will reduce highway noise and make it more difficult for dealers to operate, and will increase street presence...it can only HELP your value.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

^^^LoL. People in Atlanta are so clueless!!!!

I just wasted way too much time for a response. I did the math...the most expensive mortgages in the building are under $1.50psf per month. These Tech students will be paying $3.20-$4.00psf per month to live there. Give these students a fucking break, they'll pay up for your condo there when you want out (that is IF Atlanta decides to try to retain jobs for Tech/Emory students in the city, LoL).

Atlanta almost made me racist. Atlanta blinded me to what's normal behavior. Only in Atlanta can the "young professional/upscale" areas like Midtown and Buckhead be so ghetto. I can only describe the city as ghetto chic. Where I live now is a 4 building highrise complex built in the 60s with a Safeway, a laundromat and a Baskin Robbins in the basement. The paint is peeling in the halls and is still lead-based I think (not to mention I signed an asbestos waiver, LoL). The carpets are a little moldy in the halls. I live in 450 humble SF, pay $2400/mo. That's not normal pricing, I know. What IS normal is the fact that all my neighbors are normal, non-threatening people who work or occasionally if they're elderly live on fixed-income. Lots of foreigners, lots of young profs, some families, and elderly. Haven't noticed what I would call a "pretentious" element or a "ghetto" element - practically ANYWHERE in the city. I haven't felt so safe in a city in so long, and yet longer-term residents here think SF is unsafe or seedy!!! Wow, perceptions.

The 3 biggest detractors to value in Midtown are:

1) Lack of job growth in Atlanta (and especially lack of ability to retain majority of Tech/Emory students)

2) Availability of empty lots (this increases criminal presence in meantime, reduces land prices, and makes new development easier, even without quality job growth)

3) The friggin ghetto culture Atlanta is so well known for. My God, it's like an asset-bubble in the city, except it's a bad culture bubble. So as opposed to stocks, when housing prices increased more people bought houses. In Atlanta, the flashier the area, the more ghetto it becomes. WTF Developers need to stop including marble lobbies, granite countertops, Viking appliances, private elevators, hoards of parking spaces, etc...just make stuff plain jane and advertise walkability. See if that even appeals to the hood-rich or the pretentious MFers who all live on credit. It'll drive them away like mad!

And then for REAL diversity, not just black and white, look to Tech and other college campuses. Get jobs for these people and try to get them into Midtown. THESE are the people you WANT as neighbors, not some of the folks ALREADY living in many of the buildings in Midtown/Buckhead.

I can vouch that the common denominator for all lower-value buildings in Midtown is proximity to vacant lots. I lived in 2 buildings on West Peachtree and 1 on 14th on the other side of Peachtree...guess which building was quieter, had what I would call a "normal" resident profile, felt safer, etc etc If a vacant lot is about to be built on across from Plaza Midtown, that's a good thing!!!

I don't give a fuck if it's student housing. I don't give a fuck if it's subsidized housing for families in legitimate need. I don't even give a fuck if it's subsidized affordable housing with qualifications that reduce the risk of criminal idiots moving in. I live near all this stuff now (even straight up projects), and like I said I haven't felt safer in a long time. I ride the fucking bus at 3 AM by myself...yea try that in Atlanta. If this development will reduce highway noise and make it more difficult for dealers to operate, and will increase street presence...it can only HELP your value.

LOL Almost? If not racist, you are at least racial.

Your posts are often interject racial overtones - "too many Black folk", "too much hip/hop culture", etc. Share the world - Pardon others for living, it's their world too.

Anyway, you are in San Francisco now. You don't have worry about all the Black people in Atlanta and the Atlanta hiphop culture.

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

^^^LoL. People in Atlanta are so clueless!!!!

I just wasted way too much time for a response. I did the math...the most expensive mortgages in the building are under $1.50psf per month. These Tech students will be paying $3.20-$4.00psf per month to live there. Give these students a fucking break, they'll pay up for your condo there when you want out (that is IF Atlanta decides to try to retain jobs for Tech/Emory students in the city, LoL).

Atlanta almost made me racist. Atlanta blinded me to what's normal behavior. Only in Atlanta can the "young professional/upscale" areas like Midtown and Buckhead be so ghetto. I can only describe the city as ghetto chic. Where I live now is a 4 building highrise complex built in the 60s with a Safeway, a laundromat and a Baskin Robbins in the basement. The paint is peeling in the halls and is still lead-based I think (not to mention I signed an asbestos waiver, LoL). The carpets are a little moldy in the halls. I live in 450 humble SF, pay $2400/mo. That's not normal pricing, I know. What IS normal is the fact that all my neighbors are normal, non-threatening people who work or occasionally if they're elderly live on fixed-income. Lots of foreigners, lots of young profs, some families, and elderly. Haven't noticed what I would call a "pretentious" element or a "ghetto" element - practically ANYWHERE in the city. I haven't felt so safe in a city in so long, and yet longer-term residents here think SF is unsafe or seedy!!! Wow, perceptions.

The 3 biggest detractors to value in Midtown are:

1) Lack of job growth in Atlanta (and especially lack of ability to retain majority of Tech/Emory students)

2) Availability of empty lots (this increases criminal presence in meantime, reduces land prices, and makes new development easier, even without quality job growth)

3) The friggin ghetto culture Atlanta is so well known for. My God, it's like an asset-bubble in the city, except it's a bad culture bubble. So as opposed to stocks, when housing prices increased more people bought houses. In Atlanta, the flashier the area, the more ghetto it becomes. WTF Developers need to stop including marble lobbies, granite countertops, Viking appliances, private elevators, hoards of parking spaces, etc...just make stuff plain jane and advertise walkability. See if that even appeals to the hood-rich or the pretentious MFers who all live on credit. It'll drive them away like mad!

And then for REAL diversity, not just black and white, look to Tech and other college campuses. Get jobs for these people and try to get them into Midtown. THESE are the people you WANT as neighbors, not some of the folks ALREADY living in many of the buildings in Midtown/Buckhead.

I can vouch that the common denominator for all lower-value buildings in Midtown is proximity to vacant lots. I lived in 2 buildings on West Peachtree and 1 on 14th on the other side of Peachtree...guess which building was quieter, had what I would call a "normal" resident profile, felt safer, etc etc If a vacant lot is about to be built on across from Plaza Midtown, that's a good thing!!!

I don't give a fuck if it's student housing. I don't give a fuck if it's subsidized housing for families in legitimate need. I don't even give a fuck if it's subsidized affordable housing with qualifications that reduce the risk of criminal idiots moving in. I live near all this stuff now (even straight up projects), and like I said I haven't felt safer in a long time. I ride the fucking bus at 3 AM by myself...yea try that in Atlanta. If this development will reduce highway noise and make it more difficult for dealers to operate, and will increase street presence...it can only HELP your value.

I'm not sure of why you are so hostile...at any rate, as I've mention before, San Franciso is my favorite U.S. major city. I've been trying to get a transfer for the past 3 years!! I don't know if you have been or if you would like it, but I would love to live in Sausalito. Check it out, it's just across the Golden Gate Bridge. It's a beautiful area.

[atlantaguy]

simms3_redux - As much as I really enjoyed your past posts and keeping us up on all things related to commercial real estate, I have to say I am glad you no longer grace us with your presence here. Good riddance, and you should frankly be ashamed of this racist rant.

Let me give you a tip - don't share these views with any of your co-workers, neighbors or new acquaintances in San Francisco. You'll be professional and social toast.

As a fellow white, gay Episcopalian I find your remarks appalling.

[simms3_redux]

^^^Haha sorry I had to let it out. Still decompressing from 6.5 years of a real "up and down" experience with Atlanta! I try to be so involved and invested and really give everything a shot, and I never saw a real "return" from Atlanta. When all is said and done, an HONEST and OPEN discussion should be able to be held. Why are places like Inman Park, a mixed income, mixed race neighborhood appreciating while Midtown is not?

When Tech students are considered undesirable, it just pisses me off. How pretentious can Atlanta be?? It's always about the material things. I think that's part of the reason Atlanta condos are in the mess they are in. $300K condos with 20th floor glass VIEWS, Viking appliances, ultra amenities, granite countertops?? LoL every person living on credit (much of Atlanta) was attracted to all these flashy condos in Midtown/Buckhead...so as soon as the economy went south or they lost their job they had to go into foreclosure. What do you know, all of a sudden with an Atlanta condo glut on their balance sheets, banks were willing to sell these things to very sketchy people paying all cash $100K for a once $300+K condo. Now you have a whacko situation with legitimate young professionals who wanted to live the city life and could afford to, living next to some sketchy MFers. Not to mention the pretentious/borrowed credit crowd came back to get these fancy highrise condos at lower basis. It complimented their borrowed credit BMWs and their borrowed credit designer clothing. Please...Atlanta is not that crazy rich or else we'd have a better retail situation than we do and condos like those in Midtown would be a million dollars. Holla.

The whole thing wrong with this picture is that some penthouse looking condo should never be within 10% of the median housing cost for the city. If you're going to have a 24 hour concierge, luxury finishes, parking, amenities, views, architecture, a good address/location (for Atlanta...in reality all of it sucks), then you need to charge more than $300psf for the damn thing. It needs to be well north of $500psf. But Atlanta can't afford that en masse like people can in other cities (hell, Plaza condos would sell for close to or even over $2,000psf to the wealthy here in SF). What's the solution?

Just build plain jane apartments. They don't have to be fancy. Everything is so screwed up in Atlanta. Since when did everyone have to have a washer and dryer in their unit? WTF...I've lived fine without one now for...well forever. Since when did granite countertops become mandatory?!? Fancy looking kitchens and living rooms with views? Is all that more important than location and the walkability so stupidly advertised in Midtown?

People are so hung up on the views...just watch HGTV or Real Housewives or any reality show about Atlanta or just look at all the lawsuits about blocked views as new condos come up. WTF...view of what now? There is no waterfront, the city is so sporadic so your skyline view is filled with holes and surface lots or a 20 lane highway, it's smoggy in the summer, grey in the winter.

Atlanta is like the perfect storm of materialism and crazy crap where there should be none. It's got the Miami/LA pretention without the looks or the money. It's trying to be big city, but everyone is putting more effort into not doing transit right, into preserving every building not really worth preserving, into blocking new developments because of misguided principals, into making sure parking availability is here to stay. WTF WTF WTF

No wonder condos are so depressed. I find residents of the neighborhoods east of MT/DT to be more inclined to walk/bike than residents of Midtown. That says a lot. The most walking done in Midtown is still by hustlers and pushers at night posting up on corners of vacant lots shaded by trees. All the more reason just to put stuff, anything, up on these lots ASAP. We can all agree to hate Novare, but seriously, at least they're getting rid of vacant lots.

I think if job growth were even semi-decent and Atlanta did somehow retain more Tech/Emory students, you'd see more infill apartments rise. You'd see appreciation. You'd see a return to normalcy where the flashiness is not what's important, the criminals are pushed out, diversity is probably increased by nature of the students, and the cool factor of local businesses and walkability is what the draw becomes. Lots of those Westside apartments and condos at White Provision are rented/sold to Tech students (grad students, as well). Obviously they do represent a demographic that is transformative for an area, judging by what's happened on the Westside.

Again to further this point about how in Atlanta despite the advertising it's less about the location and more about the appearance/amenities within the building/unit...look at office space. I've never seen such a concentration of buildings in one area that would compete with the nicest buildings in Midtown Manhattan. I work in one of the premier office buildings in SF, $90 rents, I was literally underwhelmed by the lobby and the office space. Almost anything in Atlanta is far nicer. But why? Rents don't justify it! The highest rents for the best space in Midtown/Buckhead is like mid-$30s gross. Even downtown Charleston commands higher rents than those found here in Atlanta...and it doesn't have magnificent skyscrapers with grand lobbies.

And the funny thing is, in Atlanta it's not about the need for office space due to crazy job growth, or a major commitment due to an expanding tenant, it's about stealing tenants from other buildings. And you can't steal them away unless you're LEED, unless you have a fancy private club, unless you have a photographic lobby with expensive scuptures and paintings, etc etc. No wonder everyone is terrified of the Atlanta market!

What goes on in Atlanta is not normal!

I think Atlanta does so many things more right than say Houston or Dallas, and I will soon post a bunch of pics to another thread in my perpetual defense of the city, but it's almost an intolerable city from a people perspective. I hate to say it. The mentality is so Bravo Channel meets Real Housewives and it's unbearable for those having to live it in real life rather than watch it from a TV hundreds of miles away. Most of the country is not like that, which is why it's an escape (though reality in Atlanta).

[simms3_redux]

Real case in point:

1280 West. Condo conversion. I lived there 3 years. Vacant lots all around. MARTA across the street (which was a convenience in the day or early morning, but at night? Hell naw I had my ass beat for no reason on the platform there...yep right in Midtown). My unit was fully upgraded, hardwood floors, granite in kitchens and baths, wood blinds, stainless steel appliances, etc. It had a fabulous high view (again...the highway took up most of it, but in Atlanta it's that view baby, LoL).

Most of the condos were upgraded to some degree. Many were selling for $350K-$500K, which for Atlanta is a chunk of change. When I first moved in it was fairly clean cut, though I wouldn't describe the young profs living there as all banker types, though they certainly all had regular jobs and probably most went to college. There were some families, some elderly, etc.

Then the economy collapsed. Within a year I literally felt like a "last man standing". All these people were gone, within another half year they were replaced literally by straight up thugs. Not sure of the building's reputation now, but there is no denying that it got a bad rap and deservedly so. Ruth was my across the hall neighbor, my only good neighbor from then on (and L41A...she was black). She got so fed up she went into intentional default after she was able to secure some place in Brookhaven (another up and coming area where the crowd that should be living in Midtown is moving to).

My roommate in my 3rd year was someone who had lived there 6 years. We bonded over our many shared terrible experiences. Holy S**t.

After that year, I moved to Mayfair. My unit was an un-upgraded studio with old broken appliances, no view, moldy smell, just real crap. On a psf basis I was paying more, however.

The difference was truly night and day. I was literally only paying for walkability and location. It was the right side of Peachtree, quiet, no vacant lots to store pushers and hustlers, etc. Also it was truly diverse. It wasn't just African Americans and suburban Atlantan whites, but rather various ethnicities, various ages, various income levels. I heard more languages spoken there than anywhere else in the city. A fair amount of Tech/Emory grads, as well, which were both absent from 1280 West.

I think it was proof positive that there is a group of people willing to pay for walkability and location alone over fancy features. I think this demographic is what Midtown should attract. Again, bring in the Tech students. Provide jobs for them. Most of them are engineers...they don't care about granite counters? LoL Here in SF we have to build out office space for tech firms rather than dole out TI because they have no idea what they want...they're techies!

[simms3_redux]

Final case in point:

The best job markets and best urban experiences and most desirable cities and relatedly the most expensive are NYC, SF, Boston, DC, Seattle now etc. You think all these young profs moving from all over the world to these cities give a shit about the view, granite counters, marble lobbies, etc??? Hell naw. They want to be near transit, near shopping/conveniences, near each other, safety, etc.

Only in Atlanta can you only attract customers or renters if you have the right fancy marketing that makes the place look uber sophisticated, and the fancy finishes, and the concierge, and views, and the parking. All of this is more expensive, yet in Atlanta it's sold for much cheaper than a fucking box with carpet and a window in other cities.

Get rid of those vacant lots. Get that student housing. Invest Atlanta work on job growth and retain those students. That's your best bet to protect existing inventory condo values. Not appealing to the snobbery and elitism so unduly found in Atlanta.

[Libertarian]

Things here are far from perfect, but as Terminus says, "Atlanta....it's getting there"! At least down here in the dirty south we don't sweat earthquakes, tsunamis and high rents - maybe a tornado every now and again. But anyway, enjoy SF and I really do mean it!

[scania]

I know of 4 lawyers that live in SF, that are under the age of 30. 2 of them graduated from Emory, 1 from Spellman, and 1 from Morehouse...all four of them have nice places in SF. Stop making it seem as if young profesionaks don't care about having updated amenities. Maybe you and your friends don't care, but I can assure you that is not the masses. I also know another person who graduated from Vanderbilt that lives in Sausalito. Her place is very nice as well. The crazy thing is they are all paying about the same thing as you within reason. It doesn't make sense, that your place is how you described. I'm not sure how much research you have done as far as where you live, but you are getting ripped off!!!

[jpk1292000]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Final case in point:

The best job markets and best urban experiences and most desirable cities and relatedly the most expensive are NYC, SF, Boston, DC, Seattle now etc. You think all these young profs moving from all over the world to these cities give a shit about the view, granite counters, marble lobbies, etc??? Hell naw. They want to be near transit, near shopping/conveniences, near each other, safety, etc.

Only in Atlanta can you only attract customers or renters if you have the right fancy marketing that makes the place look uber sophisticated, and the fancy finishes, and the concierge, and views, and the parking. All of this is more expensive, yet in Atlanta it's sold for much cheaper than a fucking box with carpet and a window in other cities.

Get rid of those vacant lots. Get that student housing. Invest Atlanta work on job growth and retain those students. That's your best bet to protect existing inventory condo values. Not appealing to the snobbery and elitism so unduly found in Atlanta.

Wow! You're all over the place with your posts on Atlanta boards. Sometimes you're defending the city like you're the mayor. Other times you're condemning it for being more miserable than a prison in Siberia.

[pawelra]

I remember simms referring that Atlanta is one of the best places to live and especially midtown, now San Francisco is.
I'm European and I'm not native to this country/city but I adapted to it. I know there is a lot more better places around globe to live and everyone gonna say good world about own city.
I wish you luck in SF and stop trashing Atlanta forum because now you live in different city.