PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[glowrock]

The problem with preserving memories is you end up with dozens upon hundreds of gorgeous old buildings of all shapes and sizes, most of which are vacant and literally falling apart at the seams from abandonment. The building's not going to disappear from Oakland, but it will be repurposed as apartments. There are several schools that have been converted, and I have yet to see a bad renovation of one of them. Fine, I may not have some emotional attachment to Schenley like so many others do that have grown up in the area, but damn it, it's been essentially abandoned and would cost a LOT of money to renovate properly to be reused as a school. Converting it to apartments saves the exterior structure as well as ensures it will be kept up for decades to come. I still fail to see the major issue here.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[PGHFan]

When the post office was being demolished I climbed a pile of ruble and picked up one of the cast iron balusters from one of the staircases in the building. Still have it. It weighs about 35 lbs.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by glowrock

The problem with preserving memories is you end up with dozens upon hundreds of gorgeous old buildings of all shapes and sizes, most of which are vacant and literally falling apart at the seams from abandonment. The building's not going to disappear from Oakland, but it will be repurposed as apartments. There are several schools that have been converted, and I have yet to see a bad renovation of one of them. Fine, I may not have some emotional attachment to Schenley like so many others do that have grown up in the area, but damn it, it's been essentially abandoned and would cost a LOT of money to renovate properly to be reused as a school. Converting it to apartments saves the exterior structure as well as ensures it will be kept up for decades to come. I still fail to see the major issue here.

Aaron (Glowrock)

That's how I feel about Schenley School as well, Glowrock. At least the building will still be with us for several more years to come. Not to mention, didn't overall enrollment in Pittsburgh's Public Schools drop over the years? Haven't they closed Peabody and one or two others along with a few elementary schools (i.e. Bon Air, which I believe was the smallest school in the district.)? If Pittsburgh was actually adding students over the years, I guess then I would consider keeping Schenley and renovating it as a school.

To add to your statement about having a slew of historic buildings preserved only to pretty much crumble over time, that does not bode well for a city that's trying to reinvent itself. Outsiders looking to possibly relocate to the city, whether it be as a residence or business, will be turned off. They'll get the image that Pittsburgh is living in the past instead of moving forward...

Aw crud...

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

That's how I feel about Schenley School as well, Glowrock. At least the building will still be with us for several more years to come. Not to mention, didn't overall enrollment in Pittsburgh's Public Schools drop over the years? Haven't they closed Peabody and one or two others along with a few elementary schools (i.e. Bon Air, which I believe was the smallest school in the district.)? If Pittsburgh was actually adding students over the years, I guess then I would consider keeping Schenley and renovating it as a school.

To add to your statement about having a slew of historic buildings preserved only to pretty much crumble over time, that does not bode well for a city that's trying to reinvent itself. Outsiders looking to possibly relocate to the city, whether it be as a residence or business, will be turned off. They'll get the image that Pittsburgh is living in the past instead of moving forward...

Aw crud...

You just hit the nail on the head! Pittsburgh's motto: "50% living in the past, 50% moving forward, 100% confused."

Don't get me wrong, I love Pittsburgh and want nothing more than to stay here for many years to come, but truly, the residents are very confused about which direction they want the city and the region to go in.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Private D]

To me, it's not about preserving memories; it's about preserving the best use of the building and looking at the long-term financial implications. I can understand why people in Pittsburgh don't want to see a National Historic Landmark sold to an apartment management company at what amounts to a fire sale price, only to have it cut up into what have the potential to be drywall-separated "luxury" apartments.

I also understand the financial difficulties facing a shrinking school district (however, if we are to believe what we've been hearing about the city's economic resurgence, then that financial situation should improve in kind, no?). School boards in older cities that have shrunk operate in the very short term almost by necessity, and thus are notorious for making terrible mistakes when it comes to investing/not investing in their buildings. Unless Pittsburgh completely empties out, the district will need to spend millions in the not-too-distant future to renovate and/or build a new high school.

Not sure if you are aware, but closing Schenley was a very controversial decision (not popular within the district at all)... and what amounted to a huge waste of money, when they pumped 3x as much as what PMC is offering to buy Schenley for into the closed, low-quality and obsolete Reizenstein to accommodate Schenley students for a few years.

I'm all for adaptive reuse, and I'm certainly not advocating for buildings to sit idle and decay. But what I don't think you guys understand about the situation, glowrock and Jonboy, is that Schenley was not sitting idle and decaying. It was thriving and more than adequate when it was closed. Sure, plaster and ventilation systems needed major updates... just like every other old school in the nation... but those issues were relatively easily addressed. It was a rushed job to close it by a 5-4 decision by a school board and superintendent who are no longer around... a decision that is rightly being revisited because the justification for closure just wasn't there.

[BrianTH]

PPS was in the process of reducing the number of high schools at the time. Because of all the expensive work Schenley needed (and still needs), it didn't make any sense to insist on keeping it open. And because it is unlikely the district will need a new high school building any time soon, and because Schenley will keep deteriorating if kept closed, it doesn't make sense for PPS to try to mothball it for some ill-defined future use.

And yes, closing Schenley has always been controversial, but never because those who opposed closing it ever had the numbers or other practical arguments on their side (all they have been doing is critiquing the available numbers and demanding new studies, which then keep coming back with the same bad news). In other words, that opposition has always been about nostalgia and emotion.

[Steel City Scotty]

Not sure how much this is related to "development," but a study conducted by Central Connecticut State University has ranked Pittsburgh as the nation's fourth MOST literate city.

http://homes.yahoo.com/news/america-s-most-and-least-literate-cities-224612878.html

America's most and least literate cities

By Alexander E. M. Hess, Samuel Weigley and Michael B. Sauter | 24/7 Wall St.com – Mon, Feb 11, 2013 5:46 PM EST

4. Pittsburgh, Pa.
> Weekday newspaper circulation per 100: 56.71 (9th highest)
> Pct. adults with college degree: 33.1% (26th highest)
> Retail bookstores per 10,000: 2.67 (15th most)
> Median income: $35,947 (13th lowest)
Pittsburgh performed extremely well in every category measured, with the exception of Internet usage, for which it ranked 42nd among the cities. Pittsburgh is not a particularly wealthy city, with a 2011 median income of $35,947, compared to the national median of $50,502. However, the city also has very little poverty, with just 10.4% of residents living below the poverty line, versus 15.1% nationwide. The city’s libraries and booksellers are among its biggest strengths. Pittsburgh has more independent bookstores, relative to population, than any city in the country.

I though the bookstore bit of information was interesting.

I'm sure these results might surprise some people who still believe Pittsburgh is just some rundown factory town filled with retired old blue collar workers, not knowing that it's actually become a popular haven for intelligent young professionals specializing in medicine, science and technology.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Steel City Scotty

Not sure how much this is related to "development," but a study conducted by Central Connecticut State University has ranked Pittsburgh as the nation's fourth MOST literate city.

http://homes.yahoo.com/news/america-s-most-and-least-literate-cities-224612878.html



I though the bookstore bit of information was interesting.

I'm sure these results might surprise some people who still believe Pittsburgh is just some rundown factory town filled with retired old blue collar workers, not knowing that it's actually become a popular haven for intelligent young professionals specializing in medicine, science and technology.

With the city actually growing, do any of yinz think they'll build more bookstores?

Private —, I understand what you are saying, but as BrianTH was saying, Pittsburgh was shrinking its number of high schools. Schenley apparently need a plethora of expensive upgrades to keep it "up to par" with the rest of the district and to advance it into the "future." How many high schools are there in the city, and how many of them were expanded/renovated recently? I know Carrick, originally built in 1924, was renovated/expanded some 15 years ago. I believe that school was first expanded in the 1960s as well. With that said, the renovations/expansions will probably suffice for the next several years (hopefully). Pittsburgh's population is only beginning to grow now. It's slow, but God-willing it could/should pick up. So not in the imediate future, but in the very distant future should Pittsburgh need additional schools. My 2cents based on my observations.

[Private D]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

PPS was in the process of reducing the number of high schools at the time. Because of all the expensive work Schenley needed (and still needs), it didn't make any sense to insist on keeping it open. And because it is unlikely the district will need a new high school building any time soon, and because Schenley will keep deteriorating if kept closed, it doesn't make sense for PPS to try to mothball it for some ill-defined future use.

And yes, closing Schenley has always been controversial, but never because those who opposed closing it ever had the numbers or other practical arguments on their side (all they have been doing is critiquing the available numbers and demanding new studies, which then keep coming back with the same bad news). In other words, that opposition has always been about nostalgia and emotion.

While it is true that the school district shrunk and it was not justified to keep all school buildings open, Schenley was not closed as part of that plan (a plan, by the way, which has largely failed in its intent). Schenley was quickly closed because the new windows they installed in 2005 were inappropriate for the building and worsened plaster problems in the school by causing more moisture to be retained. Plaster falling created safety/liability issues and students had to be moved out of the school. The asbestos problem was exaggerated as justification for the move and closure, because the real story that the district's expensive "renovations" (the windows 2 1/2 years earlier) were a big mistake and caused the more rapid deterioration, would obviously not be publicly popular.

Schenley represents a classic case of not adequately maintaining the physical plant, and then addressing secondary maintenance issues with inappropriate measures, which then act to aggravate the primary maintenance issues. Unfortunately, this happens all the time with old school buildings. If anyone has experience with school districts and their old buildings, they know this to be true.

And sure, much of the public outcry about Schenley's closure is based in nostalgia and emotion. But not all opposition to closure was based on that, rather than on "numbers" or "practical arguments". Many who had no attachment to Schenley opposed it on fiscal issues. Over $15M was put into the move to and renovation of the closed Reizenstein (which was obsolete in design and not planned to have any future other than serving as a temporary home for the Schenley students). It is still a puzzling waste of millions of dollars. That sum was enough to remediate all asbestos issues and fix the plaster and windows. Of course, that amount would not address HVAC, plumbing, and electrical systems, but those issues are par for the course when talking about any large older school building.

I'm not advocating that PPS needs to completely renovate and reopen Schenley. I think we are far beyond that point now. I was just saying that I can understand the feelings many Pittsburghers have about its closure and pending sale (whether based on "emotion" or school district fiscal issues) -- and when non-Pittsburghers opine on the topic, having only limited information/experience on the topic, their assertions ring pretty hollow.

My main thing has always been that I'd like to see the building put to its best use. And though large, older school buildings are generally tough to reuse efficiently, that best use of Schenley, in a shrinking school district like Pittsburgh, may very well end up being apartments. I just don't want to see a renovation and reuse that is inadequate... I'm concerned about the fact that while Schenley comprises around 350,000 sq ft of space, only about half of that is rentable space suitable for apartment development, due to the building's unique layout.

And as for the assertion that the opposition has "always been about nostalgia and emotion", tell that to the Hill District.

[Wheelingman04]

^I am wondering what effect the charter schools/distance learning and other private schools will have on Pittsburgh Public Schools enrollment in the future even with general population gains in the city?

[chucka]

Sorry to drag this debate about Schenley further.

Here is something that the Post-Gazette printed in 2008:

The Next Page: Schenley High School -- a 'Green Building' ahead of its time


After reading this and seeing the layout of the building, I always thought it should remain a school building. It was designed so well to be a school.

That being said, with the sale of the building happening soon, I just hope PMC does a good job of converting it!

[Steel City Scotty]

I noticed that the news articles that have recently been written about the four different proposals for the school often include what the potential developer plans to do with the auditorium, gymnasium and swimming pool.

Are the writers of these articles including this information because these plans mean so much to the "nostalgia and emotion" people in the area? Or was it just important that each developer include their ideas for those specialized rooms/structures in their respective bids?

[BrianTH]

PPS knew it would be closing multiple high schools since well before Schenley was closed. How that has worked out in terms of buildings is a bit confusing since they sometimes reuse the building of the closed high school and close other buildings instead. But it is certainly the case that overall they have closed a lot of buildings, and in that context it simply doesn't make sense to hold onto a particular building that would require very expensive repairs.

[BrianTH]

Article about PMC's public presentation on Schenley:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...r-envisions-up-to-178-apartments-675967/

It includes a few more details about the plan, and a note that historic preservation rules might somewhat reduce the number of units.

I was also amused by the people worrying this would end up student housing. That shows a real lack of familiarity with PMC, and with what is going on in the Pittsburgh housing market.

[BrianTH]

This article about plans for Downtown is sort of a mess. You've got people still expressing the old "Downtown isn't what it used to be, it is dead after 5" meme. You've got people hoping rents will go down (good luck with that). You've got Bob Pease still channeling Robert Moses and Le Corbusier. You've got the now-obligatory Marcellus reference:

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/3278945-74/downtown-park-pittsburgh#axzz2LLNOmZuR

But threaded through it is a realistic vision of Downtown emerging as a residential neighborhood with more walkable retail. And to that end, the real news is that they are working on an off-leash dog park, which would be cool.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

This article about plans for Downtown is sort of a mess. You've got people still expressing the old "Downtown isn't what it used to be, it is dead after 5" meme. You've got people hoping rents will go down (good luck with that). You've got Bob Pease still channeling Robert Moses and Le Corbusier. You've got the now-obligatory Marcellus reference:

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/3278945-74/downtown-park-pittsburgh#axzz2LLNOmZuR

But threaded through it is a realistic vision of Downtown emerging as a residential neighborhood with more walkable retail. And to that end, the real news is that they are working on an off-leash dog park, which would be cool.

The next time I read something about Downtown is dead after 5pm, isn't what it used to be, hoping rents will drop, etc., I think I'm going to vomit. I'm so sick of the same idiotic comments (which for the record can probably be applied to 99% of downtowns in this country!) by the same idiotic people.

Unfortunately, Pittsburgh residents' inherent extreme neighborhood provincialism keeps so many of them from actually getting around the entire city, ever actually leaving their neighborhoods for more than just go to work, that they ALWAYS think it dies after 5 downtown; after all THEY'RE leaving at 5 therefore everyone else MUST BE leaving as well!

God, people's attitudes make me sick...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[AaronPGH]

Looks like the Trib needed to fill some empty space.

[Evergrey]

That article is trash. Lots of lies and irrelevant nostagia from octogenerians.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I was also amused by the people worrying this would end up student housing. That shows a real lack of familiarity with PMC, and with what is going on in the Pittsburgh housing market.

I'm sure the old cranks who inhabit Schenley Farms will oppose any proposal for Schenley. "Could you imagine the traffic in our little neighborhood when 178 new apartments are unleashed on us?" I vividly recall their hostility to the Islamic playground.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...farms-resists-islamic-playground-403461/

residents fear that the squeals of kids could disrupt the quiet nights they savor

[glowrock]

Sorry to sound so harsh here, but the old cranks just need to "go away" already... Utterly useless complaining, bitching and moaning about what things "used to be" back when the moniker 'Steel City' was truly appropriate. Sorry you old hags, but today's Pittsburgh isn't the Pittsburgh from World War II.

Aaron (Glowrock)