Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Aren't the modifications to Lougheed going to take a significant amount of time to complete? I'd think that alone would prevent any sort of early opening for Burquitlam.

We haven't seen the design but I don't think the modifications themselves will be the one that will take the significant amount of time. I would imagine it would be the guideway from the Lougheed Station to North Road on top of the bus loop and existing White Spot that will be the one that will take time to do. Seems like a lot of work and engineering challenges based on the constraints and existing topography.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I wonder if it's possible to finish and open the section between Lougheed and Burquitlam before the tunnel is done

That would require a pair of switches which may not be in the plans or budget.

[finalcoolman]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That would require a pair of switches which may not be in the plans or budget.

Then do it with single track operation with a single 4 car MK II train running back on forth as a shuttle on a single track just like the SkyTrain in 1983 where they only used what is now the Westbound track along Terminal Ave.

Once again this could be up and running by next August if there was a will to do so. With the Liberals in a desperate election campaign I'm suprised why they don't; then when they do the flashy ground breaking press conference with Crusty and a shovel she could announce/advertise Evergreen Line opening next August with a nice little asterix.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

Then do it with single track operation with a single 4 car MK II train running back on forth as a shuttle on a single track just like the SkyTrain in 1983 where they only used what is now the Westbound track along Terminal Ave.

Once again this could be up and running by next August if there was a will to do so. With the Liberals in a desperate election campaign I'm suprised why they don't; then when they do the flashy ground breaking press conference with Crusty and a shovel she could announce/advertise Evergreen Line opening next August with a nice little asterix.

I'm not seeing the value proposition in opening a single new station in a neighbourhood that is not significantly redeveloped. The price of opening this single station is disrupting the VCC-Clark-to-Waterfront system three years earlier than necessary. It will be a huge change to travellers when the Millennium Line is split in half, and in my opinion, it will only be worth doing so once the trains can travel all the way to Coquitlam downtown.

[nname]

Originally Posted by finalcoolman

Then do it with single track operation with a single 4 car MK II train running back on forth as a shuttle on a single track just like the SkyTrain in 1983 where they only used what is now the Westbound track along Terminal Ave.

If that's the case, they need to start running test train in about 3-4 months... Testing and commissioning takes approximately a whole year. From Translink's budget, they'll start running test trains early in 2015 as the operating cost is already budgeted.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The price of opening this single station is disrupting the VCC-Clark-to-Waterfront system three years earlier than necessary.

If they did run a single-track shuttle they could run it to the third platform at Lougheed, which would have zero impact on existing trains. More trouble for those transferring, though, as they'd have to go down and up stairs to get to the other platforms.

[officedweller]

Another cost of opening stations early would be the software programming necessary to implement the change (for turnbacks at Burquitlam)

If they do open Burquitlam early, it could be as a means of testing the software for the new train movements through Lougheed. If there's an issue with switching trains through Lougheed to North Road, the trains could stop at Lougheed and 97B-Line buses could contnue on to Lougheed.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Aren't the modifications to Lougheed going to take a significant amount of time to complete? I'd think that alone would prevent any sort of early opening for Burquitlam.

I don't really see how modifying Lougheed would take much longer than building an entire station from scratch. If work on Burquitlam and Lougheed started at the same time, they would probably be done at the same time.

If our experience with the Canada line gives us anything, it's that not every station progresses at exactly the same speed. The project will have a set amount of contractors (keeping individuals for as long as possible). They won't have all stations at the same level of completeness throughout the project. That would require hundreds of contractors, all with the same skill, all working on the stations at the same time, for a rather short period. You're not going to hire 50 tile guys all at the same time to finish up all the stations at the same time; you're going to hire 5 and have them work on one station at a time.

Therefore some stations WILL be finished before others. Concentrated on Lougheed and Burquitlam first before moving on to the others.

You'll also probably only have 1 gantry for building the guideway. Use it first between Lougheed and the tunnel before moving it to the eastern portions.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That would require a pair of switches which may not be in the plans or budget.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't seen final blueprints and guideway diagrams. My guess is that there would be switches around the Burquitlam stations. After the station you have a really long tunnel, and if our experience with the tunnels in New West shows us anything, we should have switches outside the tunnel. If there is a problem in the tunnel, you would need the switches to run single track between Burquitlam and Port Moody. And from an operational perspective, if something horrible happens, you would want to run trains to at least Burquitlam. From there you can run bus bridges into Coquitlam (down Clarke or Como Lake) if you need to.

So my bet is there will be a switch between Burquitlam and the tunnel that will allow single track operation through the tunnel, but in the meantime can be used to make Burquitlam a terminal station (and a terminal station if a bus bridge needs to be set up for whatever reason in the future).

Originally Posted by Zassk

I'm not seeing the value proposition in opening a single new station in a neighbourhood that is not significantly redeveloped. The price of opening this single station is disrupting the VCC-Clark-to-Waterfront system three years earlier than necessary. It will be a huge change to travellers when the Millennium Line is split in half, and in my opinion, it will only be worth doing so once the trains can travel all the way to Coquitlam downtown.

What's wrong with disrupting the VCC/Clark - Waterfront? It's going to happen, so the sooner it changes the better.

There are a lot of condos and quite a few townhomes in the process of being built right now around Burquitlam. There are also big plans for the area right around the station, and the sooner that can start, the better.

But the real value in opening the station is making the bus and skytrain network more efficient. 4 bus routes pass through the Clark and Como Lake area. By opening the station, the 97 B line and the 156 could be shortened and those buses could be shifted over to the Surrey B line (or at the very least up the frequency). It also offers a very convenient transfer point between Skytrain and the 143 which goes to SFU (and passes through the middle of Coquitlam). And it would improve the effectiveness of the C24 (and I know personally that many people would ride the C24 and get off at B Line stops, stealing seats from people who need the C24 to get home, as I used to do that).

We opened the Millennium Line to Braid station early. There were and still are no homes anywhere near the station. The main advantage of opening the station as early as possible was to improve to the bus network. That station still is a major bus route terminal.

On the Skytrain network, it would mean we could up the frequency (and shorten the trains) early. I think the biggest advantage is that trains could start running more frequently and independent of the Expo line as soon possible.

Heck, I would even say we should split the future Evergreen and Millennium line as soon as possible. The worst thing about using the Millennium line has always been the time between trains. In the evening it can be more than 10 minutes. If trains can start arriving more frequently, like on the Expo line, it would be a huge improvement.

[nname]

I don't think it would be possible to shorten everything to Burquitlam - unlike Braid, it is just not designed to be major bus terminus. Yes, there's layover space planned for ONE 143, but it won't be available until the adjacent development is completed and a new street is built. Plus, if a shuttle service is used, you have to convince everyone in Coquitlam why this 1.4-billion project that supposed to reduce travel time somehow add yet another transfer and at least 5-min onto the trip time. At least I would not be the one to use this service until the entire line is completed - FOUR transfer is just too much for me for a short trip between Coquitlam and Burnaby. I can even get from Lions Bay to Aldergrove with less transfers!

[GeeCee]

My point WRT Lougheed is that it's a very busy station, and needs quite a bit of work to accomodate the Evergreen Line. Maintaining bus and skytrain access throughout the construction process will likely cause Lougheed to take a long time compared to plopping a new station down without having to contend with an existing track and bus loop.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I don't really see how modifying Lougheed would take much longer than building an entire station from scratch. If work on Burquitlam and Lougheed started at the same time, they would probably be done at the same time.

I disagree completely. One of the most expensive things you can do is to perform construction on a station while trains continue to service it (or even just travel through it). The Lougheed station upgrade will probably be one of the trickest, slowest, and most expensive sections of the entire project.

[xd_1771]

^ I'm pretty sure that most of the Lougheed Station track and station construction will involve work on an unused track and barebones platform... there's not really anything that needs to be done at the current platform, where trains currently run.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by nname

I don't think it would be possible to shorten everything to Burquitlam - unlike Braid, it is just not designed to be major bus terminus. Yes, there's layover space planned for ONE 143, but it won't be available until the adjacent development is completed and a new street is built. Plus, if a shuttle service is used, you have to convince everyone in Coquitlam why this 1.4-billion project that supposed to reduce travel time somehow add yet another transfer and at least 5-min onto the trip time. At least I would not be the one to use this service until the entire line is completed - FOUR transfer is just too much for me for a short trip between Coquitlam and Burnaby. I can even get from Lions Bay to Aldergrove with less transfers!

Well, right now there is a fairly large unused parking lot that can be used as a temporary bus exchange. We seem to have had no qualms about building temporary bus stops/loops for the faregate construction.

And I don't think a shuttle service would be used. I think if you can open Burquitlam early, then you start running Evergreen service early. Who out there doesn't want increased frequency between VCC-Clarke and Lougheed? That is the biggest problem today about the M line. It would have pretty much the same cost as it does today (trains run half the length, twice as often), but would be far more convenient.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

^ I'm pretty sure that most of the Lougheed Station track and station construction will involve work on an unused track and barebones platform... there's not really anything that needs to be done at the current platform, where trains currently run.

Yeah. If you look at the layout of the station, very little needs to be done in the existing, operating areas. The switches and platform are already in place (I don't even think it needs to be widened but they can pretty easily do it).

The hardest part will be putting on the new roof, but that will probably be the first thing they do (even then it doesn't hang over currently operating areas).

And in the lobby, the access to the new platform is off to the side. The existing station building is basically already constructed with the new platform in mind. All they need to do is build stairs, escalator and elevator down to the existing building (remove a single wall) and they are done.

Barely anything at all needs to be done inside the existing, operating station (maybe just remove that large coffee shop, but I think there is room to get around past it).

[TransitFreak]

Assuming that the Lougheed/Burquitlam section is done first, and allows a soft opening to Burquitlam before the rest of the line, a few things can occur:

- live testing of train manoevures in and around Lougheed station
- live interlining of the millenium portion. By this I mean adding additional service along the millenium portion in between the regular VCC-Clark/Waterfront trains
- giving users time to acclimate to the 3rd platform. The final train routes will already be in place. You would have two eastbound trains going to either Burquitlam, or Waterfront. Ops can start seeing in real time the cross level implications of westbound trains to get to the side/3rd platform.
- Ops can start working on the cross of trains near Burquitlam to get them right side again, and seeing in real time how that works.
- if train inventory is an issue, you would keep VCC-Clark/Waterfront trains all MKI 4 car sets, and run VCC-Clar/Burquitlam as 2 car MKII's. Only 4 car MKII's would be used for Expo Line. This would help identify trains on the Expo Line

I can see from an Operations standpoint how you would want to open Burquitlam before anything else, as this section would deal with the most complicated operational train movements they'll need to face. Best case scenario, it provides extra frequency along the millenium line proper, and gets people used to the set up and Lougheed centre.

[nname]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

- live interlining of the millenium portion. By this I mean adding additional service along the millenium portion in between the regular VCC-Clark/Waterfront trains

There is no longer a VCC-Clark/Waterfront train once the Evergreen Line is completed. It would be:

• Lougheed/Waterfront train every 5.4min peak/6min off-peak with mixed 4/6-car MkI + 4-car MkII
• VCC-Clark/Lafarge Lake-Douglas College (who came up with this name!) train every 3min peak/5min off-peak with 2-car MkII trains

So in effect, Millennium Line will get only slightly more capacity during peak, and a large reduction of capacity off-peak.

The full interlining of Millennium Line would not work - there is just not enough trains. Even if they want to open up the shuttle service early, they'll most likely need to take 1 train off Expo/Millennium for the extra service.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by nname

The full interlining of Millennium Line would not work - there is just not enough trains.

Why do you keep on saying "just not enough trains"? Metro Vancouver's entire population is simply *NOT* that big to warrant so many trains, the riderships in the rapid transit lines or any transit line is NOT THAT extreme or crowded....ANYWHERE in the Metro area (including Broadway at peak hours). Even more so to service a possible partially completed suburban line.

Opening Burquitlam station *early* won't require dozens upon dozens of additional trains to keep up with the demand. The existing fleet can more than handle whatever ridership that would come from Burquitlam.

While I understand that there could be a whole list of reasons why Burquitlam opening early will not happen (at this point, our discussions are moot unless EGRT says otherwise), whatever those reasons maybe, its simply cannot be because of "just not enough trains".

[xd_1771]

^ What he means to say is that there are not enough trains (physically) to double the frequency over existing service if the Millennium Line and Evergreen Line (to Burquitlam) were to interline between VCC-Clark and Lougheed Town Centre station (there are enough trains to add onto the segment, pending the cancellation of Millennium Line service west of Lougheed in favour of Evergreen Line service takeover). It's sort of congruent with the point you make that our rapid transit ridership apparently does not warrant so many trains.

Even then, with that point, I disagree. From my experience I think our peak period ridership can definitely warrant more trains as long as there are pass-ups, comfort issues and complaints. This is North American society, and rapid transit has to compete with not only the superior speed, but also the superior comfort, personal space and safety perception (segregeational) of driving compared to rapid transit. Like it or not, crowdedness of trains has a huge impact on the attraction of commuters into transit here. It's nice to know, for me in particular, that adding more trains and more service hours could cost less than if we had some form of at-grade transit (rail?) instead of SkyTrain.

[nname]

Of course open one station early won't require that much train, but some people here want to interline the line with Millennium Line all the way to VCC - then there's the problem. Running 2-cars every 5.4min would require 20-22 cars. How would they find the 20 cars from the current system? Reduce all M-Line trains to 2-cars, as if the downtown segment aren't crowded enough? Or cut Metrotown-King George's frequency by half?

Originally Posted by queetz@home

the riderships in the rapid transit lines or any transit line is NOT THAT extreme or crowded....ANYWHERE in the Metro area (including Broadway at peak hours).

I guess you don't take transit frequent enough during peak hours? Expo Line and 99 B-Line are not crowded?

[SpongeG]

the dairy queen, petro canada and the former restaurant space at burquitlam plaza are all getting demolished or ready to be

[crazytown]

That have shut down the short section of View Street between Barnet Hwy and Clarke St.