PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Private Dick]

^ I tend to prefer the density exhibited in the Mosites layout -- though I understand they have a much tighter site to work with than Buncher does in the Strip.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^ I tend to prefer the density exhibited in the Mosites layout -- though I understand they have a much tighter site to work with than Buncher does in the Strip.

Yeah, it is a little hard to do an apples to apples comparison, given the more open nature of the Buncher site and also the fact they are trying to leverage the riverfront location with more views in that direction. But as I see it, the drive in front along the Busway/RR is more or less doing the same thing as the drives between the Buncher buildings, and the approach to parking at the two sites is more or less equivalent (a level or two of parking incorporated into the lowest levels). The overall number of units per acre should end up pretty similar, and may actually be higher in the Buncher project if they end up building high enough.

[AaronPGH]

Mosites has reaffirmed that they are the kings of quality urban development with this announcement. That plan is stunning.

[bruchaus]

I'd love to see a higher quality rendering of those buildings. I'm liking them more than I normally like the new construction around the Burgh, but the image quality is so poor I can't really tell what they would look like from the ground. That being said, I'm digging this project.

[AaronPGH]

^ I'm kind of giving this one less design scrutiny than I normally do, mainly because they did such a killer job with the first phase of East Side. I imagine they're going to push it just as far as they did with there. Hopefully?

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

^ I'm kind of giving this one less design scrutiny than I normally do, mainly because they did such a killer job with the first phase of East Side. I imagine they're going to push it just as far as they did with there. Hopefully?

I'd say that this proposal, at least from a massing perspective, pretty much kicks all levels of ass. The design looks decent, but the rendering isn't exactly large or detailed enough to really get a good idea of the specifics. Mosites does seem to have a really good reputation, which seems to be why we all love this plan for East Liberty while we generally seem to despise Buncher's plan for the Strip District, even though the overall massing/design doesn't seem to be that much different. It all boils down to Buncher having a horrible reputation for building anything but warehouses and Mosites having a good reputation for urban development. Perceptions, perceptions...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[themaguffin]

The Strip and East Liberty projects could be exactly the same, but that doesn't mean much.

Yeah, a development could be inherently flawed regardless of where it sits, but some designs make sense for certain environments while other designs makes sense for other areas.

Aside from some of the ridiculous aspects of Buncher's plans, it also doesn't make the best use of space for that location. It should be taller, at least portions of it. It's the same failed thinking that went on on the North Shore.

However, Buncher's plan would be fine more or less in another part of the city.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

The Strip and East Liberty projects could be exactly the same, but that doesn't mean much.

Yeah, a development could be inherently flawed regardless of where it sits, but some designs make sense for certain environments while other designs makes sense for other areas.

Aside from some of the ridiculous aspects of Buncher's plans, it also doesn't make the best use of space for that location. It should be taller, at least portions of it. It's the same failed thinking that went on on the North Shore.

However, Buncher's plan would be fine more or less in another part of the city.

I would be fine with Buncher's plan in some obscure, out-of-the-way neighborhood like Fairywood or Summer Hill.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

It should be taller, at least portions of it. It's the same failed thinking that went on on the North Shore.

Often overlooked in these discussions is that the Buncher plan allows for the residential buildings to be anywhere between 4 stories/56' and 15 stories/210'. Of course at the high end of that range that would end up much denser than the Transit Center plan, and it would be pretty impressive. Even in the middle of that range, you'd be looking at buildings around the same height and mass as the Cork Factory.

The renderings generally show buildings on the lower end of that range, but I suspect that is more for political purposes than anything else (in most contexts beside this one, showing a big impact on the existing look of the Strip would likely be counterproductive). And with the rental market moving the way it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the apartment buildings actually ended up on the mid-to-higher end.

Anyway, I think it would be more productive if people were actually pressuring Buncher et al in that direction, rather than just naysaying the whole thing. In other words, for good or ill we are stuck with this developer and this basic plan, so why not try to make the best of it?

Edit: By the way, this is true throughout the Buncher plan--the max height (depending on the section) is either 15 stories/210' or 20 stories/280'. I suspect if the renderings had shown buildings like that, impressions around here might be a bit different.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Often overlooked in these discussions is that the Buncher plan allows for the residential buildings to be anywhere between 4 stories/56' and 15 stories/210'. Of course at the high end of that range that would end up much denser than the Transit Center plan, and it would be pretty impressive. Even in the middle of that range, you'd be looking at buildings around the same height and mass as the Cork Factory.

The renderings generally show buildings on the lower end of that range, but I suspect that is more for political purposes than anything else (in most contexts beside this one, showing a big impact on the existing look of the Strip would likely be counterproductive). And with the rental market moving the way it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the apartment buildings actually ended up on the mid-to-higher end.

Anyway, I think it would be more productive if people were actually pressuring Buncher et al in that direction, rather than just naysaying the whole thing. In other words, for good or ill we are stuck with this developer and this basic plan, so why not try to make the best of it?

Edit: By the way, this is true throughout the Buncher plan--the max height (depending on the section) is either 15 stories/210' or 20 stories/280'. I suspect if the renderings had shown buildings like that, impressions around here might be a bit different.

Given the height restrictions applied to the Buncher proposal, I tend to agree with you, BrianTH. I think we're putting WAY too much emphasis on one or two renderings and not enough emphasis on the potential density for the area according to the height restrictions. That being said, I'd say Buncher needs to get that rendering updated if they really do plan on some denser, taller residential buildings in their development.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I would be fine with Buncher's plan in some obscure, out-of-the-way neighborhood like Fairywood or Summer Hill.

Ha, Fairywood! Fairywood is one of the most bizarre, post-apocalyptic looking places in Pittsburgh -- and that is saying something. The abandoned housing projects there are pretty weird (maybe some good photo ops) -- I'm not even sure if they are still standing though. I just remember when the whole area was flooded in 2004, and everyone had to move out.

Home of the Industrial Highway... the "Highway to Nowhere". If any of you Pittsburghers have never ridden it, I suggest you do... just so you can say to yourself, "WTF? Why is this here?"... and then stop at the Sharp Edge Creek House for some brews.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

That being said, I'd say Buncher needs to get that rendering updated if they really do plan on some denser, taller residential buildings in their development.

That would be a good idea if Buncher's plan only required the approval of people posting on a forum called SkyscraperPage.

The thing is, most of the real-world NIMBYs who can cause trouble for projects like this tend to hate height--to give a handy example, that Schenley Place office project we were just talking about was originally intended to be 10 stories, but got trimmed down to 8 (and then eventually the final 7) through the approval process:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2007/04/02/daily19.html

The same sort of thing has happened recently with projects in Bloomfield, and so on.

So I'm pretty sure that if they had come out with a rendering showing 10+ story buildings, they would have attracted a lot more adverse attention, and may well not have gotten their zoning allowing higher buildings as a result. Even now, there are going to be many more approvals necessary for any given building, and I suspect releasing taller renderings prematurely would just make it easier for the anti-height NIMBYs to oppose those projects.

None of this is to suggest Buncher has actually committed privately to going tall, and I would assume that will be dictated by financial considerations at the time of decision. But they obviously at least want that option, which I find encouraging, and in light of the reflexively anti-height NIMBYs, it makes sense to wait to have that fight to the last possible moment.

[Private Dick]

I don't understand why Pitt has never bought that Teris Parking lot on which the Schenley Place development is proposed.

Video of location, for those not immediately familiar with the site:

http://vimeo.com/39831099

[Buzz Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Ha, Fairywood! Fairywood is one of the most bizarre, post-apocalyptic looking places in Pittsburgh -- and that is saying something. The abandoned housing projects there are pretty weird (maybe some good photo ops) -- I'm not even sure if they are still standing though. I just remember when the whole area was flooded in 2004, and everyone had to move out.

Home of the Industrial Highway... the "Highway to Nowhere". If any of you Pittsburghers have never ridden it, I suggest you do... just so you can say to yourself, "WTF? Why is this here?"... and then stop at the Sharp Edge Creek House for some brews.

So THAT'S what it is! I found myself on that stretch of road a few years ago thinking the same thing!! Unfortunately I was working and could not stop for a brew. I just looked up some information about it. Apparently it was to run from Steubenville Pike to Route 51 near McKees Rocks.
A link for those of you who might be interested in roads and history like I am. http://www.gribblenation.com/swparoads/coulda/industrial.html

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That would be a good idea if Buncher's plan only required the approval of people posting on a forum called SkyscraperPage.

The thing is, most of the real-world NIMBYs who can cause trouble for projects like this tend to hate height--to give a handy example, that Schenley Place office project we were just talking about was originally intended to be 10 stories, but got trimmed down to 8 (and then eventually the final 7) through the approval process:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2007/04/02/daily19.html

The same sort of thing has happened recently with projects in Bloomfield, and so on.

So I'm pretty sure that if they had come out with a rendering showing 10+ story buildings, they would have attracted a lot more adverse attention, and may well not have gotten their zoning allowing higher buildings as a result. Even now, there are going to be many more approvals necessary for any given building, and I suspect releasing taller renderings prematurely would just make it easier for the anti-height NIMBYs to oppose those projects.

None of this is to suggest Buncher has actually committed privately to going tall, and I would assume that will be dictated by financial considerations at the time of decision. But they obviously at least want that option, which I find encouraging, and in light of the reflexively anti-height NIMBYs, it makes sense to wait to have that fight to the last possible moment.

That all does make sense. There is nothing more annoying to a developer than some pain-in-the-ass narrow-minded NIMBY-hippies. That is wise; starting out smaller only to go larger/taller in the end.

[Steel City Scotty]

Originally Posted by Buzz Pittsburgh

So THAT'S what it is! I found myself on that stretch of road a few years ago thinking the same thing!! Unfortunately I was working and could not stop for a brew. I just looked up some information about it. Apparently it was to run from Steubenville Pike to Route 51 near McKees Rocks.
A link for those of you who might be interested in roads and history like I am. http://www.gribblenation.com/swparoads/coulda/industrial.html

Thanks for sharing that link. I, too, am very interested in learning about old, abandoned roads (and buildings).

If you haven't visited the ghost town of Centralia in the northeast part of PA, it's definitely a site to see. A coal fire has been burning beneath the town since the 1960s, forcing the evacuation of nearly everyone who lived there. More information is available at http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm.

Also, I saw that earlier posts referenced the abandoned section of the PA Turnpike near Breezewood. This is another eerie but enjoyable place to check out. I've been there a few times with friends and even did a news story about it back in the fall of 2008.

Here is a link to that article, although I'm having trouble getting the video to play on my computer.

http://your4state.com/fulltext/?nxd_id=31621

[Wheelingman04]

Moon-Clinton Rd over by the airport looks like the road to nowhere lol.

[BrianTH]

Some details on the $5 million state grant for the Lower Hill:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...grant-boosts-arena-redevelopment-675320/

It looks like they may start some road and utility work this summer. The speculation is the Penguins will likely start with some residential projects over on the Crawford Square side, so I wonder if they will start this work over there. I also wonder if with the way things are going that a lot more of this may end up residential than originally planned.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Some details on the $5 million state grant for the Lower Hill:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...grant-boosts-arena-redevelopment-675320/

It looks like they may start some road and utility work this summer. The speculation is the Penguins will likely start with some residential projects over on the Crawford Square side, so I wonder if they will start this work over there. I also wonder if with the way things are going that a lot more of this may end up residential than originally planned.

Honestly, I think that's probably a pretty good plan of attack there, Brian. More and more residential is sorely needed, and what better place than the Civic Arena site? Not saying should be all residential by any means, but a higher percentage of residential than office/commercial/retail would probably be a good bet!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Honestly, I think that's probably a pretty good plan of attack there, Brian. More and more residential is sorely needed, and what better place than the Civic Arena site? Not saying should be all residential by any means, but a higher percentage of residential than office/commercial/retail would probably be a good bet!

Right now I would be thinking residential with just ground floor retail and maybe a hotel for the whole section east of where the Arena used to be. And I'd be looking at the revisions to projects like BKSQ 2.0 and the EL Transit Center and moving to as many apartment blocks and as few townhouses and such as possible.

I'd still be thinking office buildings for the lower/western part right next to Downtown, since Class A office space Downtown is also a manifest need. But with the other projects already in the works Downtown, I think they could be patient, and maybe as a result we could see some decent-sized buildings (say around 20 stories) when they do get around to that section.