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  #7501  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 5:48 PM
trzeppelinz's Avatar
trzeppelinz trzeppelinz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillydude View Post
Article from philly.com about the proposed casino at 8th & Market. Includes 12 story hotel. No renderings.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130210_Casino_developer_seeks_transformation.html
Thanks for the link! From the article,
Quote:
" A poker room with 30 tables, big enough to accommodate tournaments, will also be on the fourth floor."
I find this particular point encouraging with respect to bringing visitors from outside the region. Tournaments would just be one more attraction Philadelphia could host. Certainly not a bad thing.

It's also worth noting that the density is appropriate for that part of the city, the building fills in a surface parking lot, the area already caters to visitors (increasing the potential client base for the business), and it's neither in nor adjacent to a primarily residential area.

At a minimum, this proposal appears urban friendly at this stage and if you're going to place a casino somewhere (and the state is indeed making us do so, so please cut the prohibition type arguments), you might as well place it in a dense, commercial corridor that already is or can become enticing to visitors. Looking forward to the renders.
     
     
  #7502  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 6:24 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by CoolZanna View Post
These casinos are a blight. I can't believe that there isn't more concern about Blatstein's proposal being near the community college, Temple, and several schools. Similarly, proposing a casino two blocks away from Independence Hall is outrageous. The disregard for history and basic economics is stunning. Philadelphia needs to focus on creating high value added jobs, companies, and industries, not zero-sum casinos. Obviously, I'm against casinos in general, but hoping that the new one will either be Wynn's proposal up the Delaware or the one down at the sports complex. At least they'll be somewhat of an entity unto themselves. And with a lot of people quibbling about the Cira South design, Blatstein's Providence or a 12 story hotel at 8th and Market leave much more to be desired.
I know a lot of people on here share this opinion...not 100% sure why though..

I think we are all in agreement that ME would best be served as our mini-Times Square--A mix of big boxes, perhaps a movie theater, dining, entertainment venues--so what if there are some slot machines and poker rooms too?

If (big if) this project is executed well, ME could become the ultimate and complete tourist destination--shopping, convention center, unparalleled America History experience, big East Coast city vibe, walkability, good dining, and...a slice of Vegas--all within 3 blocks. As crazy as that all sounds--with the girard superblock renovation coming, PREIT eyeing its Gallery makeover--that's the potential here.

Perhaps many of the objections stem from the expectation that this will be Sugarhouse revisited? We can't always expect the worst, can we?
     
     
  #7503  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 7:12 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolZanna View Post
These casinos are a blight. I can't believe that there isn't more concern about Blatstein's proposal being near the community college, Temple, and several schools. Similarly, proposing a casino two blocks away from Independence Hall is outrageous. The disregard for history and basic economics is stunning. Philadelphia needs to focus on creating high value added jobs, companies, and industries, not zero-sum casinos. Obviously, I'm against casinos in general, but hoping that the new one will either be Wynn's proposal up the Delaware or the one down at the sports complex. At least they'll be somewhat of an entity unto themselves. And with a lot of people quibbling about the Cira South design, Blatstein's Providence or a 12 story hotel at 8th and Market leave much more to be desired.
Agreed, 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
The idea is to get as much $$ from out of towners as possible
Now THERE'S a great motto for a city that aspires to be a world-class cultural and tourist destination.
     
     
  #7504  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 7:24 PM
acenturi acenturi is offline
 
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Originally Posted by JorgeGeorgy View Post
It's good that the Grove at Cira project is designed by local Architects. The building appears to have a lot more Philly character than the attractive, but generic, Chicago-designed 2116 Chestnut. Also, the many Robert Stern designed projects are OK, but he's a New Yorker. I've seen Stern speak - he thinks he understands the city, but I don't think so. Philly's got a great modern Architectural heritage - Louis Kahn, Vincent Kling. More locally designed buildings for Philly.
I'd absolutely agree IF it looked like the rendering on the front page of today's (2/10/13) philly.com (www.philly.com). Anyone else notice that?
     
     
  #7505  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 7:36 PM
mPhilly mPhilly is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolZanna View Post
These casinos are a blight. I can't believe that there isn't more concern about Blatstein's proposal being near the community college, Temple, and several schools. Similarly, proposing a casino two blocks away from Independence Hall is outrageous. The disregard for history and basic economics is stunning. Philadelphia needs to focus on creating high value added jobs, companies, and industries, not zero-sum casinos. Obviously, I'm against casinos in general, but hoping that the new one will either be Wynn's proposal up the Delaware or the one down at the sports complex. At least they'll be somewhat of an entity unto themselves. And with a lot of people quibbling about the Cira South design, Blatstein's Providence or a 12 story hotel at 8th and Market leave much more to be desired.
I agree as well. For every job these casinos create they create 4 people with horrible — problems, half of whom become that middle-aged drunk who bugs you for money within the 3 block radius of ME and makes suburbanites get off one stop later on the regional rail even if its a longer walk. Not exactly great for developing an area which is already a bit rundown.

Besides that, these casinos only take money from "out of towners" for so long. NJ is trying to get sports betting and casinos are popping up all over the place. The reality is destination gamblers are going to go to LV, and everybody else isn't going to go to Philadelphia just to — when it's surrounded by casinos. Instead, this would probably just completely destroy Sugar House and thereby detract from both ME and the area around Sugar House.

Finally, if you look at the casino situation as it stands, its a classic bubble-burst scenario. Its illegal in most places, then in search for money laws are relaxed, developers and cities all jump in at once but find that the more casinos that exist, the less each one earns. Furthermore, for most people its a novelty that wears off quickly. I really think its only a matter of time until there isn't a profitable casino on the entire east coast. ME needs to look to long-term growth, not jumping on a dying fad late in the game.
     
     
  #7506  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 7:41 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I think we are all in agreement that ME would best be served as our mini-Times Square--A mix of big boxes, perhaps a movie theater, dining, entertainment venues--so what if there are some slot machines and poker rooms too?

If (big if) this project is executed well, ME could become the ultimate and complete tourist destination--shopping, convention center, unparalleled America History experience, big East Coast city vibe, walkability, good dining, and...a slice of Vegas--all within 3 blocks. As crazy as that all sounds--with the girard superblock renovation coming, PREIT eyeing its Gallery makeover--that's the potential here.
Why not throw in a mini-Disneyland? Oh, right--been there, done that (almost).

In my opinion, the problem with these kinds of proposals is that they're too much small ball and, quite frankly, provincial. Some may say I'm a dreamer (but I'm not the only one ), but I strongly believe that Philadelphia needs to devote more resources to developing and promoting its core strengths (historical, cultural, architectural, educational, etc.) in order to entice more potential tourists and conventions to come here from around the country and the world, rather than attempting to be a second- or third-rate one-size-fits-all tourist attraction. If we want Philadlephia to be mentioned in the same breath as New York, D.C., Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, etc. when folks plan vacations to the East Coast or the US, we need to be thinking a bit bigger and grander, in my not-so-humble opinion.

OK--stepping down off of the soapbox (at least for the moment).
     
     
  #7507  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 8:14 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mPhilly View Post
I agree as well. For every job these casinos create they create 4 people with horrible — problems, half of whom become that middle-aged drunk who bugs you for money within the 3 block radius of ME and makes suburbanites get off one stop later on the regional rail even if its a longer walk. Not exactly great for developing an area which is already a bit rundown.
Link to stats? London has casinos on (and all around) Leicester Square--and, if you're not looking for them--you wouldn't even notice they existed. Philadelphians puritanical preconception that a casino=night of the living dead is a bit off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mPhilly View Post
Besides that, these casinos only take money from "out of towners" for so long. NJ is trying to get sports betting and casinos are popping up all over the place. The reality is destination gamblers are going to go to LV, and everybody else isn't going to go to Philadelphia just to — when it's surrounded by casinos. Instead, this would probably just completely destroy Sugar House and thereby detract from both ME and the area around Sugar House.

Finally, if you look at the casino situation as it stands, its a classic bubble-burst scenario. Its illegal in most places, then in search for money laws are relaxed, developers and cities all jump in at once but find that the more casinos that exist, the less each one earns. Furthermore, for most people its a novelty that wears off quickly. I really think its only a matter of time until there isn't a profitable casino on the entire east coast. ME needs to look to long-term growth, not jumping on a dying fad late in the game.
No one is rightly suggesting Philly will be a destination for casino-goers--it's just an additional entertainment option for Conventioneers and Overnighters. Have you ever done convention travel for business/work? It's effectively a 3-day party--with 1-2 seminars during the day, a little sight-seeing, followed by revelry at night. An entertainment complex here would be a great fit for those crowds.

Naysayers also fail to point out this proposal in particular isn't just a casino. IT's 5 floors, only 2 of which are devoted to —--the other floors feature performance space, restaurant and retail venues on the ground floor, dance clubs, a rooftop lounge, 12 story hotel--i'd love to see a movie theater as well. I don't know...as a resident, shopping, dining, rooftop lounges, concert hall--sounds like things I can use to me too.

For whatever reason, the economic realities of developing something at the massive parcel at 8th and Market is just not feasible--we've been waiting for something for close to 20 years now--and little to no movement. If some — revenue subsidizes construction on a half a billion dollar investment, the majority of which does not feature —, and whose investment in ME will potentially lead to redevelopment at Strawbridges, spur on PREIT's reno of the Gallery, and the Girard superblock--then, as a local, I'm OK with it.
     
     
  #7508  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2013, 8:58 PM
mPhilly mPhilly is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Link to stats? London has casinos on (and all around) Leicester Square--and, if you're not looking for them--you wouldn't even notice they existed. Philadelphians puritanical preconception that a casino=night of the living dead is a bit off.
I don't think we can compare London and Philadelphia. I'd challenge you to find a similar situation on the east coast of the US. We're much more likely to see conditions similar to those at Sugar House or AC than London here in Philadelphia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Naysayers also fail to point out this proposal in particular isn't just a casino. IT's 5 floors, only 2 of which are devoted to —--the other floors feature performance space, restaurant and retail venues on the ground floor, dance clubs, a rooftop lounge, 12 story hotel--i'd love to see a movie theater as well.
It's 2400 slot machines and 82 tables (not including the poker room which is on a different floor--112 tables in all), to characterize this as "only 2" floors purposely obscures the scale. Compare this to some of AC's largest casinos: http://www.atlanticcitynj.com/mediaonline/fact_sheets_detail.aspx?factsheetid=18
Its larger than Trump Plaza in terms of tables and slots, and larger than many in terms of slots.

Also, I think you have a good point about the convention goers, but I'm not sure if I believe convention goers alone could come anywhere close to sustaining this place. It's definitely worthy of debate.
     
     
  #7509  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 1:04 AM
CoolZanna CoolZanna is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry King View Post
The idea is to get as much $$ from out of towners as possible
So instead of tossing a penny on Ben Franklin's grave they'll toss them in the penny slots?

It's a mistake to think that the casino is just geared towards parting visitors with their cash. The developer, Ken Goldenberg, said in the philly.com article that the target customer is "Everybody." The two biggest conventions of the year are the auto show and flower show, which draw mostly locals. Casino operators will take anybody's money; center city's relatively affluent population is the real prize here, not visitors.
     
     
  #7510  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 1:39 AM
alasi alasi is offline
 
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For those that hate —, there is no argument that will persuade them otherwise. But the casino is not going to create new gamblers, we have enough casinos here already.if you're a — addict, you're already hooked. Anew casino it just means you have another option to blow your money.
     
     
  #7511  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 5:14 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
 
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As one of six possible casino locations I don't think there's anything to get too worked up over yet. If this particular proposal is accepted for a license, then I think it will come down largely to the execution.

If (hypothetically) this is selected as the second casino, I don't really see it as being a huge boon to Market East or the city. Best case scenario it's a mediocre development along Market East that doesn't do anything to hinder further development. I'm not trying to join the casino's-are-the-devil bandwagon, but they do tend to be very inward facing developments that do everything they can to disconnect themselves from their surrounding environment. I'm willing to withhold judgement until we see at least an official rendering, but I don't really see this as anything to get excited over.

The 12 story hotel (if built) component of this would be something at least. Although 12 stories is a bit underwhelming.
     
     
  #7512  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 6:18 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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i will be really surprised if the cordish LIVE site doesn't win. it's by far the best, least disruptive site. by the airport would have been even better.
     
     
  #7513  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 7:05 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
i will be really surprised if the cordish LIVE site doesn't win. it's by far the best, least disruptive site. by the airport would have been even better.
Just curious why the airport is a factor, this casino will not draw incoming fliers to —

other aspects of the location make sense, though I hold onto hope this area could infill with residential and offices someday
     
     
  #7514  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 8:04 PM
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trzeppelinz trzeppelinz is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
I'm not trying to join the casino's-are-the-devil bandwagon, but they do tend to be very inward facing developments that do everything they can to disconnect themselves from their surrounding environment.
That's the most reasonable criticism on these boards. Everything else has been moral grandstanding, either of the table thumping variety or thinly veiled. The renders will be interesting for sure. Let's also remember we are comparing this to a surface parking lot that has been barren for years.
     
     
  #7515  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 1:15 AM
PhiLaw PhiLaw is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trzeppelinz View Post
That's the most reasonable criticism on these boards. Everything else has been moral grandstanding, either of the table thumping variety or thinly veiled. The renders will be interesting for sure. Let's also remember we are comparing this to a surface parking lot that has been barren for years.
Absolutely agree. Let's face it: Market East is currently a rough in the diamond. It has aesthetically unappealing retail (both large and small stores alike), dirty sidewalks, a transit hub that has so much potential but is viewed more as a meeting-point for vagrants than an interactive human transportation system, and an endless trail of pan-handlers.

We're at like negative 10. Even if a new casino is -5, it still elevates the mean number. I know this is an oversimplification, but quite frankly I am sick of being embarrassed to pick up out-of-towner friends from Market East. I always have to quickly run them up Walnut St. to eviscerate the image from their heads.

Let's wait to see some renders.
     
     
  #7516  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 1:19 AM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PhiLaw View Post
Absolutely agree. Let's face it: Market East is currently a rough in the diamond. It has aesthetically unappealing retail (both large and small stores alike), dirty sidewalks, a transit hub that has so much potential but is viewed more as a meeting-point for vagrants than an interactive human transportation system, and an endless trail of pan-handlers.

We're at like negative 10. Even if a new casino is -5, it still elevates the mean number. I know this is an oversimplification, but quite frankly I am sick of being embarrassed to pick up out-of-towner friends from Market East. I always have to quickly run them up Walnut St. to eviscerate the image from their heads.

Let's wait to see some renders.
When I have friends from out of town I just avoid Market East between 7th and 12th all together hahahaha
     
     
  #7517  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 4:00 AM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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Can anyone name a slots-oriented casino districts anywhere in the world where the street life is improved as a result of the presence of the casinos?

someone mentioned soho in london, which is a pretty nice area. I never knew there were casinos there. but do those casinos have slots floors the size of a target? I don't think so. I'm guessing these are relatively small casinos geared toward high rollers and that specialize in high-stakes —. but i could be wrong, i suppose.

none of the developers here will say that they won't include slots - lots of slots - because that's where the big money is. it is highly profitable to get brain dead morons to hand over their welfare and SS checks. sophisticated gaming will be a side show. you don't need 100,000 SF for table games.

but slots players - throngs of predominantly disheveled baggy-eyed octogenarians and obese people on disability puttering around on go carts with crumbs and drool stains on their purple velour sweat suits - kind of resemble herds of cattle maundering unwittingly toward the slaughter house, or the fully costumed caste in the middle of a live action reenactment of "the night of the living dead". in other words, a decidedly unglamorous spectacle.

i'm a big proponent of eliminating parking lots by almost any means necessary . . . except when the replacement is a worse street deadener than a parking lot (and an expensive and difficult to remove one at that). i'd put parking structures, gas stations, strip shopping centers, 100,000 SF methadone clinic / — bar complexes, and slots barns in this category.

what could be worse than market east today? market east overrun by zombies. a casino at market east would be a very shortsighted act of desperation destined to fail, not a successful long term turnaround strategy.

but I can rest easy as I am fairly confident that this proposal will not succeed. a market east casino idea was already shot down in the face of good urban planning policy and heavy political opposition. ken goldenberg is not a political heavy hitter in the city in the way PREIT's investment group was. if PREIT couldn't pull it off, there is little reason to believe that Goldenberg can.

lookin' forward to the giant suburbanite-funded government ATM that will be a casino at the stadium. such a casino will probably offer the extra benefit of driving Northern Liberties' own Walmart of Slots, aka Sugarhouse, out of business so that that site can actually be used for something - anything - that benefits the urban-oriented development of NL's waterfront.
     
     
  #7518  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 4:25 AM
acenturi acenturi is offline
 
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No Worries - Wynn's gonna Winn.
     
     
  #7519  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 3:45 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
As one of six possible casino locations I don't think there's anything to get too worked up over yet. If this particular proposal is accepted for a license, then I think it will come down largely to the execution.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
If (hypothetically) this is selected as the second casino, I don't really see it as being a huge boon to Market East or the city. Best case scenario it's a mediocre development along Market East that doesn't do anything to hinder further development. I'm not trying to join the casino's-are-the-devil bandwagon, but they do tend to be very inward facing developments that do everything they can to disconnect themselves from their surrounding environment. I'm willing to withhold judgement until we see at least an official rendering, but I don't really see this as anything to get excited over.
Why is that best case scenario? Isn't that borderline worst case scenario? I feel like a few of you didn't bother to read the article describing the venue. It very clearly states that the first floor facing the street will have 5 restaurants and shops. The casino is on floors 2 and 3. A lounge, concert hall, and patio is on floor 4. Floor 5 will be the lobby for the hotel and a rooftop garden.

Best case scenario is this thing spills out onto the street, with restaurants, shops, cafes--the upper floors (which according to the presentation this AM will be sheethed in glass) --will feel clean/modern, perhaps adorned with some glowing Times Square signage--and the place becomes on unobtrusive centralized entertainment hub for both tourists and locals--that's best case.

Other than a 1000foot mixed use office tower on this site--which isn't coming in our lifetimes--this crosses off a pretty nice wish list of features at 8th and Market. Hotel, performance space, restaurants, retail, rooftop garden. I sound like a salesman for the venue...but without seeing the renders, and just going off their described layout, I'll keep some faith alive.
     
     
  #7520  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 5:15 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
 
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What the developer in sales mode says and what actually happens are, we all know, two entirely different things. Goldenberg or Blatstein will say anything to get the license. Once awarded, reality will dictate. Look at Sugarhouse. Remember those great plans for hotel towers and all that? What do we have now? A slots barn and parking for SSI and welfare recipients seeking a little pseudo glamour.

Welfare and SSI recipients who frequent slots typically can't afford nice restaurants. This is why Steven Starr typically doesn't open restaurants next to lottery kiosks.

Get ready for Center City's first Olde Countrie Buffet. Maybe we get Shoney's too, and a Bob Evan's and a Steak and Ale. Maybe the glamorous Turf Club relocates. Or a branch of the church soup kitchen operation from Logan Square.

At best, this will be the Franklin Mills Food Court at Market East. That is the likely outcome. The Franklin Mills food court with several vacancies.

A casino at Market East will be very depressing, worse than what's there already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
. . . a few of you didn't bother to read the article describing the venue. It very clearly states that the first floor facing the street will have 5 restaurants and shops. . . . . . A lounge, concert hall, and patio is on floor 4. Floor 5 will be the lobby for the hotel and a rooftop garden.

Best case scenario is this thing spills out onto the street, with restaurants, shops, cafes--the upper floors (which according to the presentation this AM will be sheethed in glass) --will feel clean/modern, perhaps adorned with some glowing Times Square signage--and the place becomes on unobtrusive centralized entertainment hub for both tourists and locals--that's best case.
     
     
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