The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Fischbob]

I posted it back in the summer. Here it is for reference:

Originally Posted by Fischbob

Source (Page 81)

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Harkening back to the days of shepherding my eldest son to various hockey tournaments in the port city, I can think of at least three city rinks sinking into senesence that could be replaced. JHikka could probably elaborate on this.

The reason why the standard model for a multiplex facility is four rinks is simply because of economics. A single large refrigeration plant can service four ice surfaces. Also, you can service two Ice surfaces with a single Zamboni, hence a four plex will only require two machines. An odd number of surfaces is less economic than an even number of surfaces.

Saint John could use a 4-plex somewhere in the metro area. It would make sense to me that it should be someplace central, rather than in either the east or west ends, especially if the old neighbourhood rinks are to be decommissioned. Here in Moncton, only one neighbourhood rink survived after the 4-Ice Centre opened.....

I think you missed my point. I know the current infrastructure is in need of replacement. I'm asking how many there are, and what demand there is to justify "four". I'm also not suggesting the city build individual rinks. I know what efficiencies there are in building a multi plex, I'm wondering where the number "four" came from. Maybe the city needs eight, I don't know.

Fom what JHikka says, it seems that four is the number of currently used smaller arenas, which if replaced would justify the four-plex. I'm guessing the city's too broke to build more than that even if there is demand for more ice surfaces.

[Whaler]

Actually more common in other areas are 5 and 6 pad arenas.
Just not so much in NB?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Whaler

Actually more common in other areas are 5 and 6 pad arenas.
Just not so much in NB?

A multiplex arena should be a multiple of two, ie a 2-plex, 4-plex or 6-plex.

The 4-Ice Centre in Moncton can theoretically be expanded to a 6-plex. There is enough room and the building is designed in such a way that it could happen. I don't know if it will happen though, Crandall University has plans for a rink on campus and there is pressure for a neighbourhood rink in northwest Moncton in the recreation centre planned for next to Evergreen Park School. Also, the Centennial Arena in Dieppe is going to be rebuilt as a 2-plex and Riverview is thinking about a new recreation centre in the Gunningsville area. If this all comes to fruition, then there will be no need to expand the 4-Ice Centre.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Fom what JHikka says, it seems that four is the number of currently used smaller arenas, which if replaced would justify the four-plex. I'm guessing the city's too broke to build more than that even if there is demand for more ice surfaces.

Given how the numbers are playing out at the lower age-levels I don't believe there is going to be any rise in demand from what there is currently. It's not about the city being broke; it's about supply & demand, at which point, currently, our supply more-or-less meets the demand. The idea of a 4Plex is to centralize all of your recreation efforts in one large structure rather than spreading them out all over the city. This is why a central location is key. If the city had money to throw around i'd like to see it put towards the Exhibition grounds. Saint John needs an indoor summer sport facility badly.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Crandall University has plans for a rink on campus and there is pressure for a neighbourhood rink in northwest Moncton in the recreation centre planned for next to Evergreen Park School. Also, the Centennial Arena in Dieppe is going to be rebuilt as a 2-plex and Riverview is thinking about a new recreation centre in the Gunningsville area. If this all comes to fruition, then there will be no need to expand the 4-Ice Centre.

The Centenaire should have been torn down and the new rink at St. Anselme should have been converted to a 4Plex. Another oversight in Dieppe's spending history Riverview will soon need more than just the 2Plex at the Byron Dobson and building it in Gunningsville would make sense. There is still an arena in Hillsborough with the Riverview MHA uses from time-to-time. The NW Moncton and Crandall plans are interesting...how much control would Crandall have over their arena?

Originally Posted by Whaler

Actually more common in other areas are 5 and 6 pad arenas.
Just not so much in NB?

The nearest 6Plex IIRC is in Montreal. There isn't enough demand or money to warrant a 6Plex anywhere in NB. There was a new 4Plex just built in Bedford, NS, and if Halifax/Dartmouth ever get together in replacing all of their old arenas they could theoretically build a 6Plex there. I can think of three or four rinks in HRM that are beyond their date of expiration.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Centenaire should have been torn down and the new rink at St. Anselme should have been converted to a 4Plex. Another oversight in Dieppe's spending history Riverview will soon need more than just the 2Plex at the Byron Dobson and building it in Gunningsville would make sense. There is still an arena in Hillsborough with the Riverview MHA uses from time-to-time. The NW Moncton and Crandall plans are interesting...how much control would Crandall have over their arena?

Not to hijack the Saint John thread, but I will try to answer your questions briefly.

- the 2-plex to replace the Centennial Arena in Dieppe is a definite go.
- I am pretty sure that Riverview intends on building a new arena in the Gunningsville area and tying it in to either the new Gunningsville School or, more likely, the proposed Mill Creek Nature Park. The question is if it will be a single ice surface or a 2-plex. My money is on the 2-plex.
- when Crandall University revealed their expansion plans several years ago, it included three new buildings, a new residence, a new academic building and an arena. The only one not contructed yet is the arena. I have no idea what the current status of this project is, but I think Crandall planned on owning it and making money by selling ice time to local minor hockey etc.
- the city is pretty serious about a new recreation centre in NW Moncton. They have identified land next to Evergreen Park School and the neighbourhood (which now numbers 20,000 people or so) has become very vocal in demanding such a facility. There is considerable debate however on what the centre should contain. There is a sizeable constituency that would rather have a pool than a rink. The city isn't too keen on this though because of the high ongoing operational costs of an aquatic facility. I am not sure if a rink is in the cards here.

My point was that there will likely be 2-5 new ice surfaces in Moncton in the next 5-6 years. This will have a large bearing on whether the 4-Ice Centre becomes a 6-Ice Centre. My bet is that further expansion will not occur.

[JHikka]

Thanks for that, MonctonRad. Back to Saint John..

And back to cellphone pictures This is the progress on Noel Avenue so far. This and the property on Technology are coming along quite quickly.


Photo Courtesy: Greg Hickman via Minus.

I will also add that the new church construction on Forbes Drive can be seen from Technology Drive. I will get better pictures of that area in the coming week.

[CdnEh]

Which arenas are going to die? Belyea, Gorman?

What is the condition of the one on Dever Road?

If they want to build on Long Wharf the building must a) have a plan so it makes revenue b) be multi purpose... Nobody wants a massive building sitting empty all summer and c) be a good looking building... None of these ugly tin cans like we have now.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

Which arenas are going to die? Belyea, Gorman?

What is the condition of the one on Dever Road?

If they want to build on Long Wharf the building must a) have a plan so it makes revenue b) be multi purpose... Nobody wants a massive building sitting empty all summer and c) be a good looking building... None of these ugly tin cans like we have now.

No arenas are going to die until the doors open on the 4Plex. Presumably the arenas that would be closed are the Gorman, Hurley, Belyea, and Peter Murray. They will all be open for at least another five years.

Mayor Norton's main priority when he announced that he'd like a 4Plex was to utilize the facility in the summertime for retail and summer sports. I think the example used was to have the people that sell items on water street to use the facility, or something along those lines..sort of like an indoor market facility. The facility would not sit empty through the summer.

[Whaler]

With the 12 rinks around the Saint John area. It would make sence that at least 5 would close as mentioned.
I can tell you first hand that the demand far out weights the supply!! No question.
Saint John would be further ahead if they went to a 5 or 6 pad. More economical to run than a 4 pad. You don't need to look far to see the facts on that.

Long wharf idea still sucks!

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by Whaler

I can tell you first hand that the demand far out weights the supply!! No question.

Agreed! It is virtually impossible to get ice time for anything outside an organized league and even those end up playing games that start at 11PM due to lack of ice.

[flwright]

Originally Posted by Whaler

I can tell you first hand that the demand far out weights the supply!! No question.

Unfortunately, virtually every recreation study done in the Greater SJ region disagrees with you on this point. There is plenty of ice time and more than our region actually needs to serve its residents, there is just a lack of PRIME ice time.

This issue is similar to that of a transit service. 80% of the ridership occurs during only a handful of hours (rush hour) each day and this is why we need so many buses that otherwise sit idle for the rest of the day in order to provide peak time bus service that meets expectations (that's debatable). And we pay for that convenience at the fare box. At arenas, however, users already can't afford the heavily subsidized fees let alone supporting the extra infrastructure that would be necessary to guarantee every user with prime ice time when they want it.

This is why Rothesay backed away from twinning their rink or supporting the Qplex a few years back and why SJ is not proposing to add any new ice surfaces. Quispamsis was also criticized for going ahead with the Qplex when studies indicated that it wasn't necessary, although I'm sure the extra prime ice time was appreciated by the users.

[Whaler]

Originally Posted by flwright

Unfortunately, virtually every recreation study done in the Greater SJ region disagrees with you on this point. There is plenty of ice time and more than our region actually needs to serve its residents, there is just a lack of PRIME ice time.

This issue is similar to that of a transit service. 80% of the ridership occurs during only a handful of hours (rush hour) each day and this is why we need so many buses that otherwise sit idle for the rest of the day in order to provide peak time bus service that meets expectations (that's debatable). And we pay for that convenience at the fare box. At arenas, however, users already can't afford the heavily subsidized fees let alone supporting the extra infrastructure that would be necessary to guarantee every user with prime ice time when they want it.

This is why Rothesay backed away from twinning their rink or supporting the Qplex a few years back and why SJ is not proposing to add any new ice surfaces. Quispamsis was also criticized for going ahead with the Qplex when studies indicated that it wasn't necessary, although I'm sure the extra prime ice time was appreciated by the users.

Well, I sit on a rink board and we are dealing with supply issues all the time.
I would caution you on these studies. Who does these? Who cares!
I will say that the rinks do not have much use during the day 8 to 3. Most of us work or go to school.
Not sure about the politics of Rothesay and etc.? I would bet that Rothesay didn't have the budget to cover their portion of the partnership.
You will be seeing a change with the way rinks will be run in the very near future. Bottom line is all arenas and rinks do not make money....none! This may change.......

[MonctonRad]

According to this link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/02/06/nb-jd-irving-jobs-new.html

CBC news states that JD Irving plans on hiring 2,700 new employees in NB.

While they mention a new Kent distribution centre in Moncton, they also state that the hires will be for all aspects of the company including shipbuilding, the port, NBSR, and forest products. As such, I'm willing to bet that the bulk of these new jobs will be in SJ, and I betcha most will have to do with the shipbuilding contract.

Good for you guys!

[SaintJohner]

Excellent, more short term jobs! Ship Building and pipeline! 5 years worth of work then we can watch our population decline again!!! I'm not usually unhappy, but how can anyone be happy... most jobs that will stay here is around 400 in the end.. Stop getting our hopes up.. just another push to get short term work... well in the end people will leave again. Also, whose going to want to leave there good paying alberta jobs to work in Saint John, with half the salary. I'm sorry if my rant offended anyone, but this is the hard cold facts. This isn't going to change anything...

[Monctoncore]

Thats harsh....

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by SaintJohner

Excellent, more short term jobs! Ship Building and pipeline! 5 years worth of work then we can watch our population decline again!!! I'm not usually unhappy, but how can anyone be happy... most jobs that will stay here is around 400 in the end.. Stop getting our hopes up.. just another push to get short term work... well in the end people will leave again. Also, whose going to want to leave there good paying alberta jobs to work in Saint John, with half the salary. I'm sorry if my rant offended anyone, but this is the hard cold facts. This isn't going to change anything...

400 new jobs is depressing you?

[MonctonRad]

Indeed, and I betcha that at least 1,500 and maybe as many as 1,800 of those 2.700 new JDI jobs will be in Saint John. I think the majority will be related to shipbuilding, and if so, the shipbuilding contract is for 25-30 years. We aren't talking about short term make work projects here. This should be major good news for Saint John.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed, and I betcha that at least 1,500 and maybe as many as 1,800 of those 2.700 new JDI jobs will be in Saint John. I think the majority will be related to shipbuilding, and if so, the shipbuilding contract is for 25-30 years. We aren't talking about short term make work projects here. This should be major good news for Saint John.

Yeah a distribution centre isn't going to employ more than a fraction of 2700 new jobs, so the outlook looks goof for the Port City if we get a lot of the shipbuilding contract jobs for the next 3 decades.

[hebertovich]

Cladding going up (although not today because I thinks it's too cold) Sorry about the quality it was just my lumix and the sun was right in my lens. They seem to be starting with the orange..