PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by gallacus

So, what you're saying is, our elected officials should be thinking about the future, long-term benefits of rail infrastructure investment instead of a cheap, quick fix?

Yes, but it is even worse than that in some ways. There are lots of entrenched special interests that make money in various ways from the public investments we make in airplanes and cars, and they don't want to see any funding diverted to passenger rail, where different players would stand to profit. Meanwhile, freight rail is an often-overlooked success story in the United States, but the incumbent freight rail companies are often very jealous of their tracks and rights-of-way, and the constituencies for freight and passenger service are quite different. And then there are the people who simply see a political advantage in the message that passenger rail=cities=NotRealAmerica.

So I wish it was only a matter of short-sightedness. But the truth is that transportation policy has gotten caught up in the general mix of corporate cronyism and Culture War politics that is causing so much trouble throughout our political system.

[Evergrey]

btw, Pittsburgh no longer has an air connection to Harrisburg... so there's no point in weighing "train vs. air" for that route! But if we do lose the train... Pittsburgh will be remarkably isolated from the rest of Pennsylvania in terms of transportation infrastructure.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

btw, Pittsburgh no longer has an air connection to Harrisburg... so there's no point in weighing "train vs. air" for that route! But if we do lose the train... Pittsburgh will be remarkably isolated from the rest of Pennsylvania in terms of transportation infrastructure.

Damn Allegheny Mountains!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[novaCJ]

The 'rivalry' between PA and OH runs too deep for any rail between PGH and CLE to be happening any time soon, unless some larger agency steps in. The infrastructure in PA has been on the decline for decades now, the lack of rail even with established rail lines to Harrisburg dosen't surprise me. PA isn't stupid by any measure, but the legislature has the wrong priorities.

Aaron, where do you see Arlington and Mt.Oliver in relation to Allentown/Beltzhoover in terms of re-investment? Forgive me for my ignorance, I haven't been in PGH for a few years, is Mt. Oliver still a shithole? Is that streetcar/light rail/thing still running up through that area? Because I would expect it to be a definite draw for potential investment in the future.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by novaCJ

The 'rivalry' between PA and OH runs too deep for any rail between PGH and CLE to be happening any time soon, unless some larger agency steps in. The infrastructure in PA has been on the decline for decades now, the lack of rail even with established rail lines to Harrisburg dosen't surprise me. PA isn't stupid by any measure, but the legislature has the wrong priorities.

Aaron, where do you see Arlington and Mt.Oliver in relation to Allentown/Beltzhoover in terms of re-investment? Forgive me for my ignorance, I haven't been in PGH for a few years, is Mt. Oliver still a shithole? Is that streetcar/light rail/thing still running up through that area? Because I would expect it to be a definite draw for potential investment in the future.

Mt. Oliver's still pretty damned bad, no doubt about it. Allentown is seemingly holding its own with a decent retail/commercial strip along Warrington Ave.. Beltzhoover is basically a shell at this point, and given its close proximity to major road access points, I'd think that some reinvestment there is almost a given, though it will probably be several years. Arlington, I would think, will be the first place to start potentially gentrifying as the South Side gentrification heads on up the Slopes (where I happen to live), and perhaps reaches the crest of the slope in a couple of years' time. It's still pretty rough, but I think it potentially has a pretty bright future ahead of it.

Essentially, we're really talking about a mixed bag in these neighborhoods. All in all they're pretty rough with some brighter spots, but it's really going to depend on what happens with the gentrification in the Flats heading up the Slopes. Improvement is going to be from the north, not from the south generally.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Private Dick]

Trying to look on the bright side of this Amtrak issue... elimination of this route may be what is necessary to spur movement on a more important transportation/connectivity issue for Pittsburgh's future.

While rail service to eastern PA and NY is desirable (I guess... to me, there's not really a while lot of purpose to it now), in my outlook, it's secondary to high-speed intercity rail connection within the greater region. Work with Ohio (which is taking much more proactive action in addressing the passenger rail issue) to link Pittsburgh along a heavily-populated, high-speed line with Cleveland -- which then links to points west and east via Amtrak's Lakeshore line.

Build a strong intercity connection between the two former industrial giants that are revitalizing to become major centers of education, technology, and research... and good stuff can result. Do that, and watch the rail connections come to it. A tall order, I know, to tackle the interstate bureaucracy involved, but likely far easier done than convincing Philadelphia and eastern PA that an adequate rail system to Pittsburgh is viable and necessary. Point is, Pittsburgh needs to think regionally, and realize that eastern PA is not part of that region, nor is it on the same "team"... because that is certainly the way eastern PA thinks -- particularly when it comes to matters such as transportation linkages.

[themaguffin]

Damn Allegheny Mountains!

That shouldn't be an issue for air travel....

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by novaCJ

The 'rivalry' between PA and OH runs too deep for any rail between PGH and CLE to be happening any time soon, unless some larger agency steps in.

Completely disagree with the rivalry part. The amount of commercial connection between the two regions historically and presently is VERY strong. A stupid football rivalry is bred because of commonality and proximity, and it doesn't spill over where making money is concerned.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

btw, Pittsburgh no longer has an air connection to Harrisburg... so there's no point in weighing "train vs. air" for that route! But if we do lose the train... Pittsburgh will be remarkably isolated from the rest of Pennsylvania in terms of transportation infrastructure.

Thinking big picture, it is really about getting a decent train to Philly, and from there to NYC. And for that matter, it is also about getting decent trains to Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, and other points west, since the case for such trains improves greatly if they can continue on to Philly.

Trains in this sense require a different sort of thinking from planes, since routes can overlap.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by novaCJ

The 'rivalry' between PA and OH runs too deep for any rail between PGH and CLE to be happening any time soon, unless some larger agency steps in.

Under Rendell and Strickland, OH and PA were actually playing nice on this issue:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/news/Pages/USDOTreviewsHi-SpeedPassRailExtfromClevtoPittsb.aspx

[Evergrey]

It's popular to think that Pittsburgh has stronger links to Cleveland and points west due to historic Rust Belt identity, but Pittsburgh is oriented to the East much more than to the West. From a Pittsburgh perspective, it is absolutely top priority that we maintain and improve transportation linkages to the East Coast... which are Pittsburgh's primary markets for population and economic interchange. That said, Pittsburgh's logical location as a rail nexus between the East Coast and Midwest should help its case if decisions were driven by facts and outcomes (which of course is not the case in a country where infrastructure has become politicized). But Pittsburgh as an eastern terminus to some Midwestern network would be a failure. One only needs to look at the early failings of Megabus here... which incorrectly plugged us in with Chicago instead of East Coast initially.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

That shouldn't be an issue for air travel....

You do realize I was referring to rail, don't you?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Although I agree that Northeast Coast transportation connections are fundamentally more important to Pittsburgh than Great Lakes connections, it is worth noting that an upgraded line to Cleveland would likely be a lot less expensive than an upgraded line to Harrisburg, and you would get feasible travel times to Cleveland (versus Philly) starting with more modest speeds. So even though it is fundamentally less important, I wouldn't be surprised if that link was eventually done first.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

It's popular to think that Pittsburgh has stronger links to Cleveland and points west due to historic Rust Belt identity, but Pittsburgh is oriented to the East much more than to the West.
From a Pittsburgh perspective, it is absolutely top priority that we maintain and improve transportation linkages to the East Coast... which are Pittsburgh's primary markets for population and economic interchange.

Not sure about this. It's hard to say these days that Pittsburgh's primary markets for population and economic interchange are on the East Coast (certainly not from a passenger rail perspective). I can't see how that is possible, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it. Geographic proximity is obviously prime for commercial linkage... and the Cleveland/NE Ohio area seems to fit the bill far better than East Coast cities -- Philly or otherwise.

All we have to do is look at commercial connections... Cleveland is still one of PNC's largest markets, PPG's Cleveland-area coatings plant (now plants) is one of the company's largest in its largest business segment, Alcoa's Cleveland works has long been one of the company's major plants, Cleveland accounts for over half of Howard Hanna's business, US Steel just did a major expansion of its Lorain plant, the Cleveland area has more Giant Eagles than Pittsburgh area, Dollar Bank's operations are basically split half and half between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, Pitt Ohio Express... another one which basically is a dual-city company. And it goes the other way too, with Pittsburgh one of Forest City's largest markets, Pittsburgh's Fed branch being part of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Pittsburgh being one of Cleveland-based Eaton Corporation's major centers -- accounting for a quarter of the global conglomerate's revenues and nearly 2000 employees, and I'm sure there's a number more I could list, but I'm more familiar with Pittsburgh's presence in NE Ohio than the other way around.

These types of connections don't exist between Pittsburgh and the East Coast like they do with it's closer neighbor. And this is to say nothing of the less obvious collaborations between such players as CMU, Cleveland Clinic, Case Western, Allegheny Conference, various foundations, Pgh Life Science Greenhouse, and many others in the "TechBelt" initiative, which was specifically founded because of the many commonalities and proximity.

Originally Posted by Evergrey

That said, Pittsburgh's logical location as a rail nexus between the East Coast and Midwest should help its case if decisions were driven by facts and outcomes (which of course is not the case in a country where infrastructure has become politicized). But Pittsburgh as an eastern terminus to some Midwestern network would be a failure. One only needs to look at the early failings of Megabus here... which incorrectly plugged us in with Chicago instead of East Coast initially.

And I don't look at it as Pittsburgh serving as some sort of terminus to a midwestern rail network. I primarily see the connection, and the potential for much greater connection, within and beyond the greater Pittsburgh-Cleveland region, resulting in part from developments fostered within. When you look at the region... with over 7 million people, 4th largest in industrial technology, 6th largest in academic R&D, top 10 in GDP, and with a particular timely focus in the life sciences and energy technologies... why shouldn't there be much greater connection -- especially since it is only around 130 miles in distance?

[ColDayMan]

...and just an FYI, there is no 'rivalry' between Ohio and Pennsylvania. That's just ridiculous. I'm sure there's something between Cleveland and Pittsburgh but state vs. state, no. We co-exist next to each other. Ohio has far too many internal bickerings between cities/regions to focus on an outside rivalry.

[East Edge]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Mt. Oliver's still pretty damned bad, no doubt about it. Allentown is seemingly holding its own with a decent retail/commercial strip along Warrington Ave.. Beltzhoover is basically a shell at this point, and given its close proximity to major road access points, I'd think that some reinvestment there is almost a given, though it will probably be several years. Arlington, I would think, will be the first place to start potentially gentrifying as the South Side gentrification heads on up the Slopes (where I happen to live), and perhaps reaches the crest of the slope in a couple of years' time. It's still pretty rough, but I think it potentially has a pretty bright future ahead of it.

Essentially, we're really talking about a mixed bag in these neighborhoods. All in all they're pretty rough with some brighter spots, but it's really going to depend on what happens with the gentrification in the Flats heading up the Slopes. Improvement is going to be from the north, not from the south generally.


Aaron (Glowrock)

I remember reading about this study on POP city a couple years back. Apparently the City was exploring how smart growth development around transportation infrastructure could impact surrounding neighborhoods. This pdf link takes a few a minutes to download from the city's website but shows how investment around South Hills Junction and Beechview could capitalize on existing rail lines within the city heading to the south neighborhoods. I have been through this junction a handful of times as well as drive along Broadway ave in Beechview and it makes a ton of sense. http://www.pittsburghpa.gov/dcp/files/transportation/SMARTTRID_ExecutiveSummary_Final_090111.pdf

This image is a summary of what is shown in the summary for those who dont have time to wait for the download.

[Nexis4Jersey]

I think Pittsburgh is going to need more Hotels , Rumor has it that 5-7,000 rooms have already been booked for this years Anthrocon which is the same week as the 4th of July.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Not sure about this. It's hard to say these days that Pittsburgh's primary markets for population and economic interchange are on the East Coast (certainly not from a passenger rail perspective). I can't see how that is possible, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it.

This is a great summary of Pittsburgh's migration patterns (2011 report with data through 2009-10):

http://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/files/frp/MigrationReport2011.pdf

Total migration churn was highest with NY, Philly, and DC. Cleveland was actually pretty far down the list at #8, with about half as much churn as those top 3, although Youngstown was #4.

I think there are a few things going on there. One is just that those East Coast cities are simply much bigger than Cleveland. Another is that I believe a good amount of that churn is likely attributable to students coming and going (an interesting question would be whether students would be likely train riders, and I don't know off hand). But I also think it is true that we have more interchanges with the Northeast Coast than many people seem to realize, and I think those interchanges are likely growing.

All we have to do is look at commercial connections... Cleveland is still one of PNC's largest markets . . . These types of connections don't exist between Pittsburgh and the East Coast like they do with it's closer neighbor.

I'm not going to try to go through the whole list, but this is an illustrative example, because PNC now has quite the presence in the NJ to DC corridor. This is a recent footprint map:



I think it is worth noting in this context the previously reported fact that professional, technical, and financial services are making outsized contributions to employment growth in the Pittsburgh region these days:

http://triblive.com/business/headlines/3265810-74/region-financial-job#axzz2K5vwuLik

I strongly suspect that trend is associated with increasing relative interchange with the Northeast Coast.

Of course none of this is to suggest the existing connections with Cleveland are not important, or that Pittsburgh should be uninterested in further developing connections in that direction including through upgraded rail service. But I do think it is often underestimated how much connection Pittsburgh already has with points east, and again the sheer scale of those cities (particularly taken together), combined with the likelihood of increased intercity mobility and interchange going forward, does make them in my view a fundamentally bigger future opportunity for improved rail.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

This is a great summary of Pittsburgh's migration patterns (2011 report with data through 2009-10):

http://www.ucsur.pitt.edu/files/frp/MigrationReport2011.pdf

Total migration churn was highest with NY, Philly, and DC. Cleveland was actually pretty far down the list at #8, with about half as much churn as those top 3, although Youngstown was #4.

I think there are a few things going on there. One is just that those East Coast cities are simply much bigger than Cleveland. Another is that I believe a good amount of that churn is likely attributable to students coming and going (an interesting question would be whether students would be likely train riders, and I don't know off hand). But I also think it is true that we have more interchanges with the Northeast Coast than many people seem to realize, and I think those interchanges are likely growing.

Yeah, interesting info... I have looked at that report before. The author is actually the same guy who has been pushing the "Cleveburgh" region -- specifically referring to the very strong regional business ties between the two cities.

Migration numbers/trends aren't really what we're looking at here though, considering the East Coast cities of NY, DC, and Philadelphia are natural out-migration destinations for many places besides Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is an eastern city, so there is definitely a strong pull from the East Coast, but Pittsburgh's case is nothing really abnormal from any other eastern city... and that migration trend is not really reflective of some major orientation with the East Coast. Now, I'm not saying that none exists, because we can certainly see that relationships do exist... and we can see where the Pittsburgh region gained some transplants from the NYC region in the years of this study... likely related to financial and energy industry development and maybe students. And I agree that these interchanges are likely growing. The relationship all this has to potential passenger rail travel over a roughly 400 mile course is anyone's guess... but I don't see it as strong.

And I think it is interesting to see that the largest net in-migration to Pittsburgh is from Cleveland.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'm not going to try to go through the whole list, but this is an illustrative example, because PNC now has quite the presence in the NJ to DC corridor.

This is true, but I also think that Cleveland may still be PNC's largest market by revenue, and it is Ohio's largest bank.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think it is worth noting in this context the previously reported fact that professional, technical, and financial services are making outsized contributions to employment growth in the Pittsburgh region these days:

http://triblive.com/business/headlines/3265810-74/region-financial-job#axzz2K5vwuLik

I strongly suspect that trend is associated with increasing relative interchange with the Northeast Coast.

I would agree due to the increases in financial, but the majority of it is likely due to the natural gas industry. The number of engineers, scientists, "consultants", IT professionals, and lawyers the boom has brought to the Pittsburgh region in the last few years is amazing.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course none of this is to suggest the existing connections with Cleveland are not important, or that Pittsburgh should be uninterested in further developing connections in that direction including through upgraded rail service. But I do think it is often underestimated how much connection Pittsburgh already has with points east, and again the sheer scale of those cities (particularly taken together), combined with the likelihood of increased intercity mobility and interchange going forward, does make them in my view a fundamentally bigger future opportunity for improved rail.

I agree in general, but I don't think it is realistic to get a high speed rail line from Pittsburgh to NYC at this time. But the idea of focusing on making an already strong regional connection with Cleveland even stronger via a rail system serves to strengthen the regional economy as a power in itself, and therefore making a connection from the East Coast power centers that much more attractive.

[Private Dick]

Here's an interesting take on the "Cleveburgh" notion by Pitt economist Chris Briem (the same guy who authored that migration study):


Welcome to Cleveburgh! Pittsburghers need to rethink their place in the world

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opin...place-in-the-world-280082/#ixzz2K6Glyt6z

Regional economist CHRISTOPHER BRIEM tells us why
March 29, 2012

- It may be time to realize that what separates Pittsburgh and Cleveland is more artificial than real. It may be time to talk about the once-unthinkable: a combined Cleveland-Pittsburgh metro region.

- A two-hour drive up the turnpike is all that separates downtown Cleveland from downtown Pittsburgh. Suburban counties of both regions are much closer.

- Pittsburgh and Cleveland, along with Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Weirton and Steubenville, could all fit within the area that currently makes up the Chicago Metropolitan Statistical Area. Cleveburgh is not a vast "megalopolis," and in many ways it already functions as a single region.

- Northeast Ohio and southwestern Pennsylvania are far more interconnected with each other than either region is with other parts of Ohio or Pennsylvania. The day-to-day interaction of local businesses are geared toward regional partners, not Harrisburg or Columbus. Pittsburgh industries are far more linked to markets and suppliers in Youngstown, Akron and Cleveland than with those in Allentown, Scranton or even Philadelphia.

- Both regions share an economic history that has defined them. Both regions have worked to streamline fragmented local governments. Both regions have sought to re-educate their workforces and redefine themselves in a new economy.

- The metropolitan statistical areas of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Steubenville, Weirton and Youngtown, along with adjacent counties, add up to a population of more than 6 million and a labor force of more than 4 million. They make up a combined market that many local businesses already treat as a single region when looking to the future.

- Nowhere is the connection between the two regions stronger than in the labor market. The interconnected Cleve-burgh workforces have long had a symbiotic relationship, and it's been growing over time. Both regions have long obsessed over migration and job growth while both have depended on each other for workers.

- Annual migration among Cleveburgh communities dwarfs the movement of people to other places across the nation. Daily commuting over state borders is a growing phenomenon. It is not uncommon to see workers from Ohio and West Virginia looking for jobs in Pittsburgh, and Pittsburgh residents considering jobs in Weirton or Youngstown or farther reaches of the region.

- In many ways Cleveburgh already exists. The Regional Learning Network was formed in 2009 and brings together local leaders of Cleveland, Youngstown and Pittsburgh to address shared problems. The TechBelt Initiative brings together emerging technology industries of the greater Pittsburgh and Cleveland regions. These are seeds of what could become broader regional cooperation -- if we make it so.

- If Pittsburgh and Cleveland can greatly expand the cooperation that has only just begun, then maybe we can lose the inward-looking parochialism that also is part of our common legacy.

- The challenge of competing as a region can only be met if we combine both metro areas' networks of resources, if we share ideas, capital and talent. Cleve-burgh could take advantage of a much broader set of strengths than either Pittsburgh or Cleveland can tap on its own.

- No one definition of our greater region is right for all circumstances. But we can't be limited by municipal or state boundaries that mean less and less as time goes by.