Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[WASDEN]

I moved out of state a few months ago. People know I'm originally from Salt Lake and always tell me about the latest news they see on TV about the aweful air there. People along the Wasatch Front need to get honest with themselves. What is the primary source of all this toxic air? Cars. Their own cars. Do they realistically see more or less cars in Utah's future? More or less sprawl in Utah's future? The answer is A LOT more. It will get far worse before it gets better. I love Salt Lake but with all the news reports and Facebook posts from friends about the horrid inversion I'm even more glad I moved to a place where its warm and I can ride my bike to work every day. My lungs are even more happy about this decision.

[delts145]

So what about the other 10 to 11 months? I'm a Vegas fan, and have visited often, but more often than not during those summer/fall months, when I've been in both Metro Vegas and Metro Salt Lake, the Wasatch Front wins by a long shot on those visible bluebird days. The Wasatch Front Metroscape is infinitely more beautiful than Clark County almost the entire year.

However, yes Utahns need to get serious about the Kennecott dilemma, and force more aggressive improvements with both Kennecott and other singular, major particulate polluters, such as the oil refineries, coal burning stoves for heating, and of course the automobile.

Govenor Huntsman made excellent inroads into CNG conversion for autos and more convenience for their refueling. Huntsman's emphasis must be rekindled. An accelerated CNG conversion along the Wasatch is something that can make dramatic improvements in an amazingly short period of time.

Coal and wood burning stoves, and the Utahn independant psyche that causes their proliferation is understandable. However, Wasatch Fronters, and also in particular Loganites, need to embrace the newer generation of stoves. These stoves are equipped to dramatically lower the particulate pollutants that they emit. If Obama wants to throw cash around, major credits on new stoves for those struggleing to afford conventional natural gas heat, would be a major help vs. the constant federal waste on green business busts.

Of course, there are very worthy and long term planning issues, which must be tackled. It's just surprising to me the short list of resolutions out there that could make a very dramatic improvement very quickly, if only the popular and political clout gets behind it.

Kennecott is a huge polluter and definitely at the top of the short list. Below is a very interesting and timely article by the Trib. from a year ago.


Kennecott causes one-third of air pollution

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/53600999-82/rtk-pollution-utah-mining.html.csp

...According to data from the Utah Division of Air Quality, RTK is by far the largest single source of air pollution along the Wasatch Front, emitting 10 times more pollution overall than the next largest industrial source, the Chevron refinery. Inversions or no inversions, the raw data simply show that RTK is responsible for nearly one-third of the overall pollution released into the air over Salt Lake County.

The company is now permitted to expand the mine an additional 32 percent, an expansion of 73 percent since 1994, which equates to an increase in annual mining from 150 million to 260 million tons...

RTK's enormous environmental and public health footprint must be viewed in its totality, not piecemeal, as the company would prefer. The same must be said about its economic impact. Although RTK pays substantial taxes and wages, its contribution to disease, health care costs and the suppression of "cleaner" economic development all take money out of your wallet.

Studies of mining operations in other parts of the country, looking at both sides of the equation, suggest that RTK, overall, is actually an economic liability...

[Comrade]

I think each year, the spring and summer months become worse and worse. We might not be at the levels of Las Vegas and L.A., but it's by no means clean for good portions of those months and it can be choking. Granted, winter is when it hits the most - but it doesn't matter when it hits ... it's a problem between November and March and that's nearly the length of typical summer pollution months you'd see in other larger, more expansive cities.

[WASDEN]

Deltas thanks for the reminder to update my location. I couldn't agree with u more that Clark County NV doesn't even hold a candle to Salt Lake- so thanks for defending our city. Sure heavy industry is a contributer to the inversion problem too- and me being the extremist that I am would love to see heavy industry go. I realize these do represent some peoples jobs so that's why I would prefer a phase out rather than an expansion of this portion of our economy. Personally I think Utah county is a far better place without the steel mill even though that initially meant loss of jobs. People will grumble at first of course- but when its unsafe for pregnant women- the core of Utah society to go outside- that is just rediculous. My uncle has a pulmonary disease that requires him to leave his doctors in Salt Lake every winter to live with our aunt in Phoenix just so he can breath. Winter with its skiing and Sundance film festival should be Salt Lake's chance to showcase itself rather than draw all this negative attention of the worst air in America. I lived in Logan for years too and I know just how thick the air and peoples skulls can get. But things can get better. I remember when I was a kid just how shocked I was to learn we Salt Lakers lived by some really sick mountains! That's how bad it used to be I never even saw them growing up. Phase out the heavy industry. Make busses and trains pretty much free on red air days. Hell make em free a few days before! Set toll booths at commuting bottle necks like Point of the Mountain and the refinery district to charge those commuters who would rather live in a ranch house in Eagle Mountain rather than something more modest near their job because its "more affordable". People have got to take personal responsibility as well rather than always pointing the finger at heavy industry. And the biggest change of all has got to be zoning. The cancer of endless freeways and Eagle Mountain ranch houses has got to be killed before it kills us. Walkable sustainable healthy communities in harmony with Utah's picturesque environment.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

I'm so sick of the cold and this air that seems to never go away. I've lived here a long time but I don't think I ever remember a Jan. being this cold for this long. Hope it clears out sunday with the snow storm that's coming.

You would be correct. This January is on track to be the coldest in 64 years, and the 3rd-coldest on record. Mother Nature seems to be correcting herself after 2012 was by far the warmest year on record.

I would be perfectly ok with it except for this nasty inversion. It got about as bad as I've ever seen it (although I'm probably younger than just about anyone else here).

[Just A Thought]

I just wondered what peoples opinion of Downtown Rising was? Its 7 years old this year, and according to the timeline on their website its pretty much over. So I was just curious if people felt it had been a success? It's moved an economic hub from one side of downtown to the other. But is that really a true success? I live in downtown, right between these two competing economic hubs and other than one half finished building and an office building, nothing has been developed anywhere near me. I'm surrounded by lowest use of land i.e parking lots and old blight ridden buildings. There is not a single actual 'shop' within an 8 minute walk. In the last year, even 9th and 9th has been more successful at attracting real "walk to" retail development than anything near the centre of downtown. Maybe its like a Jedi mind trick, and I think I live in booming downtown but I don't really.. Just wondered if I was the only one that felt this?

[Future Mayor]

I guess it depends on where you live. I look at both Main St and the Depot District as booming areas, as you said. I think Downtown rising has been a fairly successful campaign. I think SLC has really made some huge advances in those years. Those two economic hubs will eventually connect, but the fact that more than half of those 7 years of Downtown Rising were during the greatest economic downturn since the Depression, I'd say the advances SLC have made have been substantial.

[delts145]

I couldn't agree more Future Mayor. Also, we are now finally starting to see an acceleration of development between 600 W. and W. Temple. New commercial and residential proposals and projects are springing up continually now. Plots that have been unsightly parking lots for many decades are now preparing for hotel, office, mixed-use commercial, and apartment development. I think the new Convention Hotel will only add to this development acceleration on the west side of downtown.

[Just A Thought]

I agree that that main street and City Creek has been hugely successful considering the economic climate. But I worry that there are not enough people living and working in downtown that are able to enjoy these facilities. The other worry I have is that people have to decide 'which' downtown to go to. As the walk from east to west is lifeless. There are almost no walking destination points between the two. The walk time is actually quite short, at around 10 minutes, but its like walking through a different derelict city for that short amount of time. So no one wants to walk it. It would be a huge advantage to join the two and do it in a New York kind of way, by adding great condo buildings intermixed with separate office buildings and creating quieter (back street) avenues with lots of boutique, small business retail to join the two downtowns.

I guess I'm just a little confused as to why there is no development there as it seems like such perfectly located land. It has everything, trax, rail, and Utah's best retail on its doorstep. My feeling is that this is exactly what Downtown rising is supposed to achieve, but it just doesn't seem to have created that demand.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Just A Thought

I just wondered what peoples opinion of Downtown Rising was? Its 7 years old this year, and according to the timeline on their website its pretty much over. So I was just curious if people felt it had been a success? It's moved an economic hub from one side of downtown to the other. But is that really a true success? I live in downtown, right between these two competing economic hubs and other than one half finished building and an office building, nothing has been developed anywhere near me. I'm surrounded by lowest use of land i.e parking lots and old blight ridden buildings. There is not a single actual 'shop' within an 8 minute walk. In the last year, even 9th and 9th has been more successful at attracting real "walk to" retail development than anything near the centre of downtown. Maybe its like a Jedi mind trick, and I think I live in booming downtown but I don't really.. Just wondered if I was the only one that felt this?

I said it back when they unveiled the entire project that it was too ambitious and most of it wouldn't happen. I stand by that. I never bought into the ideas of the hubs and I think I even said that on this forum years ago. It just didn't seen like something that could be done non-organically. I had compared their plans to what the city established in the 70s (or around that time), which was very similar.

Still, I think on a smaller level, it has been successful. Of course, who knows how much of that development is a direct result of Downtown Rising? City Creek was planned long before the project, and if you take that away, downtown construction is fairly limited overall. So...

[delts145]

Why Utah is Forbes' best state for business

By Alan Hall, For the Deseret News

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86557...-help-you-gain-these-advantages-too.html

Utah has just been named Forbes' Best State for Business for the third consecutive year. What’s happening in the Beehive State to receive this singular honor? ...

[Just A Thought]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

I said it back when they unveiled the entire project that it was too ambitious and most of it wouldn't happen. I stand by that. I never bought into the ideas of the hubs and I think I even said that on this forum years ago. It just didn't seen like something that could be done non-organically. I had compared their plans to what the city established in the 70s (or around that time), which was very similar.

You mention the potential difficulty of the hubs succeeding at non-organic re-generation, but I wonder, can it be done organically? I'm not so sure because that would imply that the highest and best use of land is the natural aim, but clearly huge areas of true downtown SLC are left in many cases with weeds growing out of it, and these area's are typically right across the street from 100,000s of visiting trade show attendees every year. So it would appear that in DT SLC the highest and best use of land is precisely the opposite to what modern economics would state. This is what I find so confusing..

[Future Mayor]

I see your point, and the highest and best use for the moment is obviously a parking lot with weeds, for many areas of downtown SLC. That doesn't however mean that the highest and best use of that property in 5 years or even 1 year is the same thing.

Development and neighborhoods/hubs can't be forced, and while the process may seem slow to many of us, the fact is, is that it is moving along, in all areas of downtown. With the building of the two proposed hotels, south of ESA, that eliminates one vacant building and weed infested parcel, resulting in the next demand having fewer options of places to build creating a different highest and best use for a parcel that is currently a parking lot, or under utilized building.

It takes MEGA projects like Gateway, and now City Creek to force transformation of a neighborhood. The rest of items have to fill in organically, the Cowboy Partners project behind The Gateway requires the catalyst to be there before it could ever be built.

Yes a few of the blocks surrounding the Salt Palace are very underutilized, but that is in part because of the placement of the entrances to the convention center. The post office block, and the block south aren't anywhere close to an entrance so the natural flow of people coming and going isn't going to have as much affect on those blocks. As for the blocks north of the Salt Palace, that is a different story, that is simply a land owner that has a master plan for the area and is not in a rush to develop the land until it meets their timeline.

I do see the Convention Hotel being a minor catalyst for 200 S (assuming it is built on the Post Office block) because it will provide an entrance to the hotel and convention center further west, and will provide a visual connection to 300 W from 200 W.


As for the overall goal of downtown rising being to lofty, I would rather the goal be lofty and only some of it is achieved, providing goals for the next decade, rather than a small goal and accomplish all of it, then looking back and thinking, "I wish they would have aimed for more"

[Just A Thought]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I see your point, and the highest and best use for the moment is obviously a parking lot with weeds, for many areas of downtown SLC. That doesn't however mean that the highest and best use of that property in 5 years or even 1 year is the same thing.

Development and neighborhoods/hubs can't be forced, and while the process may seem slow to many of us, the fact is, is that it is moving along, in all areas of downtown. With the building of the two proposed hotels, south of ESA, that eliminates one vacant building and weed infested parcel, resulting in the next demand having fewer options of places to build creating a different highest and best use for a parcel that is currently a parking lot, or under utilized building.

It takes MEGA projects like Gateway, and now City Creek to force transformation of a neighborhood. The rest of items have to fill in organically, the Cowboy Partners project behind The Gateway requires the catalyst to be there before it could ever be built.

Yes a few of the blocks surrounding the Salt Palace are very underutilized, but that is in part because of the placement of the entrances to the convention center. The post office block, and the block south aren't anywhere close to an entrance so the natural flow of people coming and going isn't going to have as much affect on those blocks. As for the blocks north of the Salt Palace, that is a different story, that is simply a land owner that has a master plan for the area and is not in a rush to develop the land until it meets their timeline.

I do see the Convention Hotel being a minor catalyst for 200 S (assuming it is built on the Post Office block) because it will provide an entrance to the hotel and convention center further west, and will provide a visual connection to 300 W from 200 W.


As for the overall goal of downtown rising being to lofty, I would rather the goal be lofty and only some of it is achieved, providing goals for the next decade, rather than a small goal and accomplish all of it, then looking back and thinking, "I wish they would have aimed for more"

I just hope when the city/private entities develop 200 S they remember how important it is to create walking destination points. For downtown to be amazing, it can't have huge pedestrian unfriendly blocks right in the middle of it. I just hope they remember to include at least a few 'small business friendly' affordable quality retail outlets/cafes (like Niche) to give the walking public a true sense of purpose to walk from CC to Gateway, and vica versa.

200 S and 300 S are in desperate need of quality affordable retail developments. I believe on both those streets combined from Main - 400 W (3/4 mile each so a total of about 1.5 miles) there are only about 23 scattered outlets of varying quality.

[Comrade]

The area west of West Temple has always been fairly uneven - even before the convention center opened up in the 1990s. The reality is that the city has neglected that area for years and it's starting to show. Unfortunately, we still have two downtowns - the Gateway on the western edge and the real downtown. They're competing with each other because people don't seem to do both. They either shop at the Gateway and stay in that area or shop at City Creek and stay in that area.

Downtown is still extremely underdeveloped in terms of retail and other entertainment options and it's why, for most of the area, downtown is absolutely dead on the weekends and at night. Salt Lake continues to struggle at being a morning to night, seven days a week city - even with the infusion of people because of Gateway and City Creek.

The problem is, they don't spill over into other areas of downtown. Those retail options continue to be isolated from the remainder of the city center and fixing that is critical not only to the viability of downtown, but the future of all these developments because when the newness factor wears off City Creek, there has to be other reasons to head downtown. That's why it's maybe best the Gateway reinvent itself - so that it can offer something truly unique to the state of Utah.

[jedikermit]

I apologize if this has already been posted here, but there's an intriguing "Competition for Young Architects" in SLC for blocks 69 and 70: http://sixtynineseventy.com/ ...I like what they're trying to do, can't wait to see the entries.

[Future Mayor]

I differ with your opinion on there being no activity at night in SLC. I frequent downtown in the evenings and even more so on weekend evenings. Sure many places aren't full during the week, but many places have a decent crowd many nights of the week and every bar, club, restaurant and entertainment destination are packed to the gills on most weekend nights.

There is always dozens of people walking around the sidewalks throughout the evenings, particularly on the weekends. SLC doesn't have a concentrated night life district, but I think that actually is better for downtown because it spreads business out and provides many areas of vibrancy. As housing options continue to grow, more and more places of entertainment, dancing, eating and drinking will continue to open, all around the city. For a city of our size, SLC has a fair amount of activity going on, all nights of the week, add in the PAC coming in a few years, hopefully a remodeled Utah Theater soon after that and this will bring even more people to downtown.

I do agree though, that the area between 200 W and 400 W particularly on 200 S needs some improvements, but I feel that those things are coming, and coming soon.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by jedikermit

I apologize if this has already been posted here, but there's an intriguing "Competition for Young Architects" in SLC for blocks 69 and 70: http://sixtynineseventy.com/ ...I like what they're trying to do, can't wait to see the entries.

Thank you for posting this. I will probably enter the competition.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I differ with your opinion on there being no activity at night in SLC. I frequent downtown in the evenings and even more so on weekend evenings. Sure many places aren't full during the week, but many places have a decent crowd many nights of the week and every bar, club, restaurant and entertainment destination are packed to the gills on most weekend nights.

There is always dozens of people walking around the sidewalks throughout the evenings, particularly on the weekends. SLC doesn't have a concentrated night life district, but I think that actually is better for downtown because it spreads business out and provides many areas of vibrancy. As housing options continue to grow, more and more places of entertainment, dancing, eating and drinking will continue to open, all around the city. For a city of our size, SLC has a fair amount of activity going on, all nights of the week, add in the PAC coming in a few years, hopefully a remodeled Utah Theater soon after that and this will bring even more people to downtown.

I do agree though, that the area between 200 W and 400 W particularly on 200 S needs some improvements, but I feel that those things are coming, and coming soon.

That's the problem. It's only always in the 'dozens' and not 'hundreds'. Maybe my expectations are too high, but I've often been the lone person downtown at 9:00 ... which is weird. You know it's dead when the chirping of the crosswalks is the only sound you hear.

I'll grant you that there are times when downtown is busy - but those are events and not just average days. Overall, I'd wager even a city like Boise has a more exciting downtown at night than Salt Lake. That's inexcusable.

[chad.farnes]

A while back I commented on the new parking garage at the VA hospital on Foothill. They added a really cool metal exterior to it. Sure it is still a parking garage, but it looks a whole ton cooler than your normal cement parking garage. I would love to see more stuff like this throughout town.