PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[chiaroscuro]

RIDC has high interest in Hazelwood

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by photoLith

And the amount of restorations on old buildings downtown is also pretty incredible too.

Agreed.

...

Nice find, chiaroscuro. I hope to see some more sophisticated renderings in the near future.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by photoLith

And the amount of restorations on old buildings downtown is also pretty incredible too.

Agreed, photoLith. Agreed!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by photoLith

And the amount of restorations on old buildings downtown is also pretty incredible too.

I think in general these days we are often (not always) doing a good job of creatively reusing existing historic structures when possible. I think developers have gotten the message that such elements are very valuable in today's market and tie in well to what is making Pittsburgh a "hot" city these days. Of course it doesn't hurt to have well-known and successful outsiders like PMC validating this approach.

[kennypip]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

There is certainly a disproportionate amount of URA projects in the Hill's favor but I think the fact that visually, it's still very bombed out and "missing teeth gaps" everywhere which makes the overall nieghborhood still not too impressive. Hopefully it will continue to build up and crime filled areas will be cracked down upon.

I like the fact that all of the developments are concentrated around crawford square. Centre Ave has changed dramatically in my lifetime. I walked down Centre a few months ago and was amazed at the progress made over the years. There are quite a few historic structures under renovation. This coupled with all of the current and future new construction projects should improve the greater Hill.

[BrianTH]

I've been trying to moderate my hopes for the Hazelwood LTV site, because I wasn't sure yet if they could get a developer really willing and able to move quickly. But that article does sound encouraging.

[markson33]

I wouldn't get my hopes up about Hazelwood. Afterall, RIDC was the original developer of PTC on 2nd avenue.

I could imagine good interest in the housing portion of it, but the office and mixed use portions will probably take decades. There would be a lot of competition for office users and Hazelwood is not as main-stream as...say... SS works or the portal project.

[BrianTH]

They are claiming there is already strong tenant interest, and viewed as an extension of Oakland, that makes sense. But we shall see.

[photoLith]

I dont mean to spam this thread, but I just made a photo thread from my adventures in the Burgh, thought you guys might want to check it out.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203723

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by markson33

I wouldn't get my hopes up about Hazelwood. Afterall, RIDC was the original developer of PTC on 2nd avenue.

I could imagine good interest in the housing portion of it, but the office and mixed use portions will probably take decades. There would be a lot of competition for office users and Hazelwood is not as main-stream as...say... SS works or the portal project.

Damn dude, just remember the Hazelwood site is damn near just across the river from Southside Works and literally adjacent to the PTC! And frankly, just remember that the PTC was built early-on in the overall brownfield redevelopment process in the Pittsburgh region. I'd venture a guess in saying the overall Hazlewood LTV site will probably wind up being somewhere in between the PTC and Southside Works, probably closer to the latter than the former.

Regardless of Hazelwood's so-called stigma, this project has enormous potential for the entire area, and should really help to alleviate much of that stigma, anyhow...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

I just can't get over the vacancy and rent trends Downtown and Oakland, which are happening during an economy that is still in recovery from a recession. That all looks to me like a market that needs a lot of projects in the pipeline, and I see plenty of room for the Hazelwood LTV in that pipeline, unless perhaps they start announcing 20+ story highrises in the North Shore and Lower Hill.

[Private D]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Damn dude, just remember the Hazelwood site is damn near just across the river from Southside Works and literally adjacent to the PTC! ...

Regardless of Hazelwood's so-called stigma, this project has enormous potential for the entire area, and should really help to alleviate much of that stigma, anyhow...

Aaron (Glowrock)

Originally Posted by BrianTH

They are claiming there is already strong tenant interest, and viewed as an extension of Oakland, that makes sense. But we shall see.

I'm glad to hear there is strong tenant interest... however, the veracity of that claim by the RIDC should indeed be questioned, since they are the ones marketing the site. We have to take the claim at face value for now, and not pretend that there is more going on than there actually is. This is what real estate developers (in all their incarnations) do.

And Markson33 makes a very good point.

I think it's useful to remember where the vast majority of this site actually is. We cross the Hot Metal Bridge, turn right, and think, "hey, the site's right there". It's really not.

Meaning, it's really not "damn near just across the river from the Southside Works and literally adjacent to the PTC!", nor can it realistically be viewed as an "extension of Oakland".

The meat of the site is across from the steep, heavily-contaminated slopes of Hays Woods. While the narrowest, riverfront strip is adjacent to the PTC, with access to SSW via the Hot Metal Bridge, and in relative proximity to Oakland proper via the highly-secondary Bates St, we should all know that relative proximity in Pittsburgh does not mean what it means in other cities. Hazelwood is the most isolated neighborhood in Pittsburgh -- always has been throughout its history.

However, the potential to change that with this development, due to this site being such a large, riverfront swath of land, in the core of the region, is enormous. The potential is with the site itself, and therefore access to it is tantamout to its development success. Second Avenue for its entire length from the 10th St Bridge on through Hazelwood and this site to the Glenwood Bridge MUST be drastically improved if this development is to reach its full potential.

The focus has to be on the site itself (which includes Hazelwood) and access to it. Office buildings are not going to go where there is no reason for them to go... just because the area is kinda close to important zones (Oakland, SSW).

[markson33]

I'm just saying that if there is so much interest, then why can't Oxford find a tenant for its approved and ready to go project on the south side, why are there still 5-6 sites available at PTC, why isn't the portal project built, why is Continental worried about the risk of a 3 story building on the North Side? Etc. Etc.

The reality is that if a company wants to build a 100,000 SF building on the fringe of downtown there are a plethora of options and Hazelwood is going to be pretty low on that totem pole.

I'm stoked about the project and can't wait till it comes to fruition, but I'm not going to get my hopes up that we are going to see anything substantial in the near future.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Private —

I'm glad to hear there is strong tenant interest... however, the veracity of that claim by the RIDC should indeed be questioned, since they are the ones marketing the site. We have to take the claim at face value for now, and not pretend that there is more going on than there actually is. This is what real estate developers (in all their incarnations) do.

And Markson33 makes a very good point.

I think it's useful to remember where the vast majority of this site actually is. We cross the Hot Metal Bridge, turn right, and think, "hey, the site's right there". It's really not.

Meaning, it's really not "damn near just across the river from the Southside Works and literally adjacent to the PTC!", nor can it realistically be viewed as an "extension of Oakland".

The meat of the site is across from the steep, heavily-contaminated slopes of Hays Woods. While the narrowest, riverfront strip is adjacent to the PTC, with access to SSW via the Hot Metal Bridge, and in relative proximity to Oakland proper via the highly-secondary Bates St, we should all know that relative proximity in Pittsburgh does not mean what it means in other cities. Hazelwood is the most isolated neighborhood in Pittsburgh -- always has been throughout its history.

However, the potential to change that with this development, due to this site being such a large, riverfront swath of land, in the core of the region, is enormous. The potential is with the site itself, and therefore access to it is tantamout to its development success. Second Avenue for its entire length from the 10th St Bridge on through Hazelwood and this site to the Glenwood Bridge MUST be drastically improved if this development is to reach its full potential.

The focus has to be on the site itself (which includes Hazelwood) and access to it. Office buildings are not going to go where there is no reason for them to go... just because the area is kinda close to important zones (Oakland, SSW).

I agree with you on most of what you wrote here, Private —. Especially the bolded sentence concerning the improvement of Second Avenue . There is absolutely no doubt that Second MUST be improved from the Hot Metal Bridge through to the Glenwood Bridge, and preferably from 10th to Hot Metal as well. If Second is improved appropriately, it can become a real focus of development along that entire stretch of riverfront, which would be an incredible thing indeed!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by markson33

I'm just saying that if there is so much interest, then why can't Oxford find a tenant for its approved and ready to go project on the south side, why are there still 5-6 sites available at PTC, why isn't the portal project built, why is Continental worried about the risk of a 3 story building on the North Side? Etc. Etc.

The reality is that if a company wants to build a 100,000 SF building on the fringe of downtown there are a plethora of options and Hazelwood is going to be pretty low on that totem pole.

I'm stoked about the project and can't wait till it comes to fruition, but I'm not going to get my hopes up that we are going to see anything substantial in the near future.

I think there are very, very few locations where a company can build a large amount of office space anywhere in the region at this point, though. Companies that want to be downtown will NEVER choose sites like this (or the North Shore, or anywhere else besides downtown), but many companies do want a corporate-campus style development, more akin to American Eagle in SSW. I can easily see plenty of interest in Hazelwood from numerous companies, because those would never be the same companies that would locate in a downtown tower, at least generally. Why not the PTC? Is it actually being actively marketed at this time, or is it more or less considered to be built out until some future date?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bruchaus]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

You always seem to think every new project is overpriced or a waste of money. Take a class on business or economics for gods sake.

Gonna have to call — on that one, bud. That is the first time I've ever said something cost too much or was a waste of money.

You are most likely conflating that single complaint with the many complaints I've have about design of all the garbage buildings being built in Pittsburgh as well as my disdain for many projects such as South Side works which turn areas into amusement parks.

But you are free to keep on assuming I don't know anything about economics or business. And I will just assume you are some kind of gentrification loving maniac hell bent on turning Pittsburgh into some kind of miniature Disney World and neither of us will be correct. How's that sound?

I don't mind being a negative voice around here about certain developments, I think there are many more who share my opinions. I'm certainly not a NIMBY, just an appreciator of aesthetically pleasing buildings and I don't mind calling — —.

That being said, I'm not even against this project. I saw $45 million and thought it was an awful lot for a college theater renovation and construction project. God forbid anyone ever question anything around here.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I dont mean to spam this thread, but I just made a photo thread from my adventures in the Burgh, thought you guys might want to check it out.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203723

That's not spam! Your photos are amazing. Great work!

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by bruchaus

Gonna have to call — on that one, bud. That is the first time I've ever said something cost too much or was a waste of money.

You are most likely conflating that single complaint with the many complaints I've have about design of all the garbage buildings being built in Pittsburgh as well as my disdain for many projects such as South Side works which turn areas into amusement parks.

But you are free to keep on assuming I don't know anything about economics or business. And I will just assume you are some kind of gentrification loving maniac hell bent on turning Pittsburgh into some kind of miniature Disney World and neither of us will be correct. How's that sound?

I don't mind being a negative voice around here about certain developments, I think there are many more who share my opinions. I'm certainly not a NIMBY, just an appreciator of aesthetically pleasing buildings and I don't mind calling — —.

That being said, I'm not even against this project. I saw $45 million and thought it was an awful lot for a college theater renovation and construction project. God forbid anyone ever question anything around here.

Yes I probably am referring to your generally negative comments on many projects that are announced. I honestly don't know what you even like since you always seem to be disapproving of so many buildings. I mean, here's your chance: What DO you like?

I have no idea if I am a gentrification nerd; I enjoy any GOOD project whether it's a solid rehab project or a fresh new design. (for example I love the DL Convention center, the river front trails projects and the Gates center on CMU campus just to name a few. SS Works? I don't personally have a strong opinion. I think it keeps the urban grid decently enough but it's no urban heaven that's for sure. I wouldn't blame anyone for having an opinion in either direction on that development. (Although Soffer did say that while he was in Europe he tried to model the walkable shoppes style experience).

I WILL agree with you that I hate the disneyfication of anything. That is just shite. I do usually voice a strong opinion when people start talking about construction and development costs primarily because I don't see how the average person could have a realistic idea of what large and/or unique developments cost.
I have been a residential Realtor for 8 yrs now and I HAVE learned a lot about the drastic difference between what people think things cost and how much construction/infrastructure upgrades REALLY add up. But I still won't claim to be an expert on that either because i rarely am involved in commercial real estate sales and development.

[bruchaus]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Yes I probably am referring to your generally negative comments on many projects that are announced. I honestly don't know what you even like since you always seem to be disapproving of so many buildings. I mean, here's your chance: What DO you like?

My taste in architecture varies greatly. I love Art Deco, Bauhaus style, Victorian, Gothic, Gothic-revival, Georgian, Beaux Arts, Modern. I suppose it just depends on the type of building being erected.

I generally dislike most new buildings, especially the kind (I don't think it even dignifies being called a "style") being built on the North Shore and those in South Side Works. It's like suburban office park trash. I am also not a huge fan of the brutalist style typified by the guy in your avatar.

The new skyscrapers I typically like are usually glass edifices. I really like the design for the new PNC building. I'm excited about that one. I also like the Gardens project.

I have to look at these pieces of concrete — everyday when I go to work in Manhattan, sadly there are two identical towers like this right next to each other by IM Pei (I don't hate all his stuff btw):

[evz922]

I noticed today that Oxford Development hung up large office space leasing banners on 350 Fifth. The picture on the banners is of the smaller redevelopment of the existing structure and not the office tower. I'm not sure if this means that the tower is out of the question or not.