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  #121  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 2:58 AM
KHOOLE KHOOLE is offline
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Rough Riders

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Originally Posted by kilroy View Post
It seems the origin is a bit more... muddy.

Prior to the name change to Rough Riders they were simply the Ottawa Football Club and adopted the Rough Riders moniker on September 9th 1897, which lines up neatly with Roosevelt's exploits in the Spanish-American War. It should be noted that Roosevelt's regiment disbanded about 6 days later and that the unit was extremely popular and regularly featured in media sources of the time.

It seems no one knows for certain (the original documents for the name changes were lost for both teams) why BOTH Ottawa and Saskatchewan adopted Rough Riders as their name, but in Ottawa's case, there is simply no evidence of any connection with logging history or any local history prompting the name change. Heck, they even briefly adopted the name Ottawa Senators in the mid-twenties and won two Grey Cups with that name.

For Saskatchewan, it's seems plausible and quite likely that the name is connected with the Northwest Mounted Police, but there's no concrete evidence to support this.

CBC's A Not-So-Brief History of Ottawa Football
web page has this to say on the origin of the Ottawa Rough Riders name (although without any proof):

"The Ottawa Football Club is renamed the Ottawa Rough Riders and adopts red and black uniforms to honour the Canadian Regiment fighting in the Spanish-American War."

However, there's a major problem with this, namely that there was no Canadian Regiment in the Spanish-American War.

As far as I can tell, there's zero evidence (besides anecdotal) of any connection of the Ottawa Rough Riders with Ottawa's logging history. Heck, I can't even find any concrete evidence that term Rough Riders was ever used as a name for log drivers at all. I can only find mentions by modern sports fans on forums referring to the Ottawa CFL franchises, past and future.

The best anyone can say for certain is that the origin of the Ottawa Rough Riders name has been lost to history.
I concur.

First of all, the guys taking the logs down to market in the spring time were known as drivers, not riders. In the days before automobile drivers (and back-seat riders), logs were driven down water streams and rivers during the annual spring drive by drivers, hence the french names "la drave" (drive) and "les draveurs" (drivers).

It matters not whether the horseriders were rough-shaven, rough-looking or riding on rough terrain. The fact is that they were mostly French and Spanish half breeds along with former US Civil War soldiers and deserters, as well as free-spirited guys with maybe a criminal past or having deserted their wives and kids who roamed the wild unchartered west of the continent from Texas to western Canada, then known as Rupert's Land. .

They were free souls who travelled alone, or in small groups or larger groups, who could shoot from the hip while riding hard. They possibly lived in groups with squaws and could be hired for protection as well as for aggression, especially when ranch boundaries and cattle ownerships were involved. Their horses were very likely tamed wild horses that they captured and broke down. They may have been involved with supplying horses to the North West Mounted Police because these had originally brought horses along when they rode the newly-built CPR line to Manitoba during the 1885 Riel Rebellion. Maybe 5-10 years later, "rough riders" probably helped to round up and tame new horses for the Mounties.

Teddy Roosevelt hired some of them as mercenaries and they mostly came from Texas and other new states like Colorado and Arizona. New Mexico and most of California was still Spanish land, just like Cuba. These guys were not very useful because their horses were left behind in Florida. The US cavalry used sabres, not guns. The black US battalions did most of the shooting (and getting killed).

There may not be any documented evidence as how the Rough Riders Football Team got their name but I suspect that reading the local newspapers on the late 1890's may give evidence that the name "Rough Riders" was a popular and possibly of a "daring, rough and adventurous" kind.

The tell-tale early logo of a cowboy riding a bucking horse is possibly evidence that Hollywood's 1920's version of a "cow-boy" (e.i. looking after cows) was possibly then (1900) just plainly known and referred to as a "rough rider".

Anybody willing to read the Citizen's archives between 1895 to 1900?
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  #122  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 3:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilroy View Post
It seems the origin is a bit more... muddy.

Prior to the name change to Rough Riders they were simply the Ottawa Football Club and adopted the Rough Riders moniker on September 9th 1897, which lines up neatly with Roosevelt's exploits in the Spanish-American War. It should be noted that Roosevelt's regiment disbanded about 6 days later and that the unit was extremely popular and regularly featured in media sources of the time.

It seems no one knows for certain (the original documents for the name changes were lost for both teams) why BOTH Ottawa and Saskatchewan adopted Rough Riders as their name, but in Ottawa's case, there is simply no evidence of any connection with logging history or any local history prompting the name change. Heck, they even briefly adopted the name Ottawa Senators in the mid-twenties and won two Grey Cups with that name.

For Saskatchewan, it's seems plausible and quite likely that the name is connected with the Northwest Mounted Police, but there's no concrete evidence to support this.

CBC's A Not-So-Brief History of Ottawa Football
web page has this to say on the origin of the Ottawa Rough Riders name (although without any proof):

"The Ottawa Football Club is renamed the Ottawa Rough Riders and adopts red and black uniforms to honour the Canadian Regiment fighting in the Spanish-American War."

However, there's a major problem with this, namely that there was no Canadian Regiment in the Spanish-American War.

As far as I can tell, there's zero evidence (besides anecdotal) of any connection of the Ottawa Rough Riders with Ottawa's logging history. Heck, I can't even find any concrete evidence that term Rough Riders was ever used as a name for log drivers at all. I can only find mentions by modern sports fans on forums referring to the Ottawa CFL franchises, past and future.

The best anyone can say for certain is that the origin of the Ottawa Rough Riders name has been lost to history.
In Saskatchewan it is Roughriders (one word).

Spanish - American War 1898 - 1901
Battle of San Juan Hill July 1 1898
(Did you get the date wrong from the quote?)
(Nope the editor of the CBC Website screwed up and more than once. Teddy's Rough Riders wore a uniform of a Blue shirt and Brown pant, not Red and Black)

If the 1897 date is true, then maybe the name is in honour of the Canadians who fought in the 1885 North-West Rebellion in today's Saskatchewan. There were troops who wore red but another unit (The Royal Winnipeg Rifles ) wore rifle green (which looks black at a distance)

Boer War 1899 - 1902

Last edited by VANRIDERFAN; Dec 20, 2012 at 3:29 AM. Reason: New info
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  #123  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 3:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
I concur.

First of all, the guys taking the logs down to market in the spring time were known as drivers, not riders. In the days before automobile drivers (and back-seat riders), logs were driven down water streams and rivers during the annual spring drive by drivers, hence the french names "la drave" (drive) and "les draveurs" (drivers).

It matters not whether the horseriders were rough-shaven, rough-looking or riding on rough terrain. The fact is that they were mostly French and Spanish half breeds along with former US Civil War soldiers and deserters, as well as free-spirited guys with maybe a criminal past or having deserted their wives and kids who roamed the wild unchartered west of the continent from Texas to western Canada, then known as Rupert's Land. .

They were free souls who travelled alone, or in small groups or larger groups, who could shoot from the hip while riding hard. They possibly lived in groups with squaws and could be hired for protection as well as for aggression, especially when ranch boundaries and cattle ownerships were involved. Their horses were very likely tamed wild horses that they captured and broke down. They may have been involved with supplying horses to the North West Mounted Police because these had originally brought horses along when they rode the newly-built CPR line to Manitoba during the 1885 Riel Rebellion. Maybe 5-10 years later, "rough riders" probably helped to round up and tame new horses for the Mounties.

Teddy Roosevelt hired some of them as mercenaries and they mostly came from Texas and other new states like Colorado and Arizona. New Mexico and most of California was still Spanish land, just like Cuba. These guys were not very useful because their horses were left behind in Florida. The US cavalry used sabres, not guns. The black US battalions did most of the shooting (and getting killed).

There may not be any documented evidence as how the Rough Riders Football Team got their name but I suspect that reading the local newspapers on the late 1890's may give evidence that the name "Rough Riders" was a popular and possibly of a "daring, rough and adventurous" kind.

The tell-tale early logo of a cowboy riding a bucking horse is possibly evidence that Hollywood's 1920's version of a "cow-boy" (e.i. looking after cows) was possibly then (1900) just plainly known and referred to as a "rough rider".

Anybody willing to read the Citizen's archives between 1895 to 1900?
The NWMP came west long before the CPR - 1875
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/hist/march/index-eng.htm

CPR was built between 1881 - 1885
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Railway
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  #124  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 4:28 AM
KHOOLE KHOOLE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
The NWMP came west long before the CPR - 1875
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/hist/march/index-eng.htm

CPR was built between 1881 - 1885
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Railway
I guess you didn't read the wikipedia article:

" In March 1885, the North-West Rebellion broke out in the District of Saskatchewan. Van Horne, in Ottawa at the time, suggested to the government that the CPR could transport troops to Qu'Appelle, Saskatchewan (Assiniboia) in 10 days. Some sections of track were incomplete or had not been used before, but the trip to Winnipeg was made in nine days and the rebellion was quickly put down. Perhaps because the government was grateful for this service, they subsequently re-organized the CPR's debt and provided a further $5 million loan. This money was desperately needed by the CPR. "
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  #125  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 4:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
In Saskatchewan it is Roughriders (one word).

Spanish - American War 1898 - 1901
Battle of San Juan Hill July 1 1898
(Did you get the date wrong from the quote?)
(Nope the editor of the CBC Website screwed up and more than once. Teddy's Rough Riders wore a uniform of a Blue shirt and Brown pant, not Red and Black)

If the 1897 date is true, then maybe the name is in honour of the Canadians who fought in the 1885 North-West Rebellion in today's Saskatchewan. There were troops who wore red but another unit (The Royal Winnipeg Rifles ) wore rifle green (which looks black at a distance)

Boer War 1899 - 1902
and what are you saying....?
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  #126  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 4:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
I guess you didn't read the wikipedia article:

" In March 1885, the North-West Rebellion broke out in the District of Saskatchewan. Van Horne, in Ottawa at the time, suggested to the government that the CPR could transport troops to Qu'Appelle, Saskatchewan (Assiniboia) in 10 days. Some sections of track were incomplete or had not been used before, but the trip to Winnipeg was made in nine days and the rebellion was quickly put down. Perhaps because the government was grateful for this service, they subsequently re-organized the CPR's debt and provided a further $5 million loan. This money was desperately needed by the CPR. "
If you read your own post, you said the NWMP originally rode along the newly built CPR. I'm just pointing out that NWMP was in western Canada 10 years before the CPR.
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  #127  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 5:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
and what are you saying....?
I'm saying that the CBC reporter was talking out of his ass.
The Spanish American War was after the date the Ottawa Rough Riders were named;
Canadians did not fight in that war as a regiment;
Teddy's Rough Riders wore a uniform of Blue and Brown; and
Canadian troops who fought in the Rebellion wore uniforms of Red or Black.
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  #128  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 6:24 AM
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The Saskatchewan Roughriders also wore black and red uniforms in the early days. I read that they needed to replace their uniforms quickly (I don't remember the reason) shortly after World War II and by chance ended up with green and white uniforms. This is how they became the green and white. They originally wore black and red uniforms for the same reason as the Ottawa Rough Riders.

Some information on Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Riders
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  #129  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 6:04 PM
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No trains then

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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
If you read your own post, you said the NWMP originally rode along the newly built CPR. I'm just pointing out that NWMP was in western Canada 10 years before the CPR.
Agreed

John A. MacDonald created the NWMP and sent them west to quell the 1869 Red River Rebellion under Louis Riel, which was an aftermath of the 1867 Confederation and invasion of Metis land by white colonists and railroad companies making government-sanctioned land grabs from the natives who always lived there (no ownership papers in those days).

There were no trains in those days and the NWMP rode to the Red River, probably through Wisconsin and Minnesota. They probably needed more horses and probably purchased local wild horses that had been broken in by the local "rough riders" who were Metis descendants of the Voyageurs and early French settlers (e.g. Lagimondiere) and a mix of Hudson Bay and North-West fur trade guys.

The meaning of the word "rough" has probably evolved over time, just like the word "gay". I suspect (I have no proof at hand, but it could be found with much research) that "rough" in those days meant what we would call "tough" in our days, as in the expression "tough guys".

So my interpretation is that "rough riders" were tough guys who looked and talked rough and travelled far and wide riding horses over rough terrain.

I'll stand for correction though.
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  #130  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 6:15 PM
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USA vs Spain

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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
I'm saying that the CBC reporter was talking out of his ass.
The Spanish American War was after the date the Ottawa Rough Riders were named;
Canadians did not fight in that war as a regiment;
Teddy's Rough Riders wore a uniform of Blue and Brown; and
Canadian troops who fought in the Rebellion wore uniforms of Red or Black.
Agreed

The USA was at war with Spain and the British was not involved.

At the Louisiana Purchase, the French land west of the Mississippi was mostly along the Missouri and Spain owned most of the South-Western land like California, Colorado and Arizona (note the Spanish names). These were all part of Mexico (that's another story).
The USA declared war on Spain and invaded their territories as well as Cuba,
hence Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders.
I have no idea about the colours.
The Rough Riders would have been a pretty rag-tag bunch anyway.
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  #131  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHOOLE View Post
Agreed

The USA was at war with Spain and the British was not involved.

At the Louisiana Purchase, the French land west of the Mississippi was mostly along the Missouri and Spain owned most of the South-Western land like California, Colorado and Arizona (note the Spanish names). These were all part of Mexico (that's another story).
The USA declared war on Spain and invaded their territories as well as Cuba,
hence Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders.
I have no idea about the colours.
The Rough Riders would have been a pretty rag-tag bunch anyway.
The exploits of Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders took place in the spring of 1898.

The Ottawa football team was named the Rough Riders in September of 1898.

Somebody at the new football club in Ottawa was obviously reading the papers in the months prior to September.
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  #132  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 5:51 AM
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newspaper archives re Rough Riders

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The exploits of Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders took place in the spring of 1898.

The Ottawa football team was named the Rough Riders in September of 1898.

Somebody at the new football club in Ottawa was obviously reading the papers in the months prior to September.
Could not find any Citizen article online in that time frame but I found these:

Marshall's Rough Riders

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...h+riders&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...h+riders&hl=en

Bill Cody (his real name was French: Cote) had Rough Riders in his show (probably vets from Cuba)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...h+riders&hl=en

Boer War had their own Rough Riders (English outcasts)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...h+riders&hl=en

ENGLISH OUTCASTS IN SOUTH AFRICA‎
Pay-Per-View -
Atlanta Constitution - Jun 13, 1897
It is to be supposed that 3000 free lances like these, rough riders, sharpshooters, make up a force to be reckoned with. In their rank., side by side
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  #133  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 3:44 PM
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  #134  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 4:04 PM
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RnB? the O-Town Motown?
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  #135  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Red Blacks/Rouge Noirs is a terrible idea (although the French version sounds better). I heard someone say that Red Blacks sounds more like a name for a soccer team and I agree. I also don't like Ottawa Fury FC for the soccer team. "Fury" doesn't mean anything to me as an Ottawa resident; doesn't create a sense of local pride and identity. This would be the perfect time to change that name.
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  #136  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 4:08 PM
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I believe there is an Empire Football League team in Watertown in New York state called the Red and Black. A team called the Ottawa Bootleggers once played in this league.
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  #137  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 4:21 PM
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Better than Rush, still not transferable (same spelling) between French and English, don't like it.

Fury is even worst!
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  #138  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 5:15 PM
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Nope.

We're the nations capital and they come up with names like Fury & RedBlacks/RougeNoir.

It's like they're trying to force themselves to give the CFL team a name that starts by 'R'. It's nostalgic but also limits choices of possible names that work in both English & French.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 5:30 PM
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Reminds me of IKEA's black-brown furniture.
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  #140  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2013, 5:42 PM
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RAFTSMEN tabernac!!!
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