Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I seriously don't see how running our LRT above ground downtown makes any sense at all even if we dedicate an entire road to it. Plus, in Calgary their trains are much shorter and they're running less frequently then we're even currently planning.

Calgary currently runs 75 m trains and has rebuilt the transit mall for 100 m trains. We're going to run 98 m trains initially and ours are going to have slightly more capacity than will their 100 m trains due to the smaller number of cabs in our trains. Someday we might get trains that are bit longer, but not much longer.

Calgary runs a train as frequently as every 75 seconds downtown. We're going to run them at 2 minutes at max frequency, with longer intervals initially.

Calgary already has more total transit riders than we do and their transit ridership is growing faster than ours because their population growth is higher and they still have a lower ridership per capita so they have more room to "catch up".

In other words, we have less need of transit capacity than they do, both now and in the future, so if a surface system is going to work for them it would work for us too.

I'd much prefer the city build a system than has room to grow over the next 50 years then build something that will be at capacity in a couple decades.

Well if that's what we were doing I would tend to agree, but we're not doing that, are we? We're building a system with only two downtown stations that will be limited to trains no more than about 130 m long.

If we're not going to build an underground system with capacity to grow, then why bother building an underground system at all? Just put it on the surface, use the savings to make a bigger network today (and make ongoing operating savings by shortening the BRT system) and when we get around to needing more capacity, build an underground system with the larger capacity we'll need. But instead, we're going to sink a lot of money into an inherently limited system that will be difficult to expand without serious disruption and without easy alternatives (i.e. having a surface system would still leave building a tunnel as an option).

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Dado

If we're not going to build an underground system with capacity to grow, then why bother building an underground system at all?

I see your point. Why bury the line if it could probably be run on the surface with its short/mid term targeted ridership.

My argument is more that the city should be building a system that can grow right off the bat.

And yes, there should be 3 stations west of the Rideau Canal. Smeg we're cheap in Ottawa.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I completely agree you on this. The lanes should stay and have all the remaining downtown routes rerouted to take Albert & Slater such as the 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 16, & 85. Many routes could also use the Mackenzie King station which would then leave Wellington and the Rideau Street station mostly for STO buses. During evenings and late nights the OCT buses could be temporarily routed to use Rideau Street station to serve the Byward market crowds.

With local routes transferring passengers to and from the LRT... where?

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

With local routes transferring passengers to and from the LRT... where?

I'm assuming that some "local" routes in downtown will still exist. I don't expect Bank, Bronson, Elgin, Somerset, Gladstone, Rideau, Dalhousie, & Sussex to be without any bus service after the LRT is operational. Other cities with mass transit in their downtowns still have bus service in their downtowns.

But the city & OC Transpo haven't shown us a hint of what kind of bus service we might expect after LRT is in full operation. I can always be surprised at the stupidity that might arise...

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I'm assuming that some "local" routes in downtown will still exist. I don't expect Bank, Bronson, Elgin, Somerset, Gladstone, Rideau, Dalhousie, & Sussex to be without any bus service after the LRT is operational. Other cities with mass transit in their downtowns still have bus service in their downtowns.

But the city & OC Transpo haven't shown us a hint of what kind of bus service we might expect after LRT is in full operation. I can always be surprised at the stupidity that might arise...

All the routes you mentioned are N-S or too far from the CBD, what we need is to maintain a DT E-W surface bus corridor. This is to support the many routes that will continue to run from the South and S-E and will still need to drop people off at multiple locations downtown when the buses get there. You can't expect the buses to run up Sussex then drop everybody off at RIdeau and expect them to walk km accross downtown. Also, this is a perfect opportunity to get the STO buses off of Wellington. It's kind of embarrassing that we have buses lined up in front of parliament, the Chateau Laurier, etc. at rush hour. Move them all to Albert/Slater once the majority of the OC routes have moved to the tunnel.

[Dado]

How would you deal with the routing of STO buses at the west end of downtown?

Would you send the STO buses over the Chaudière Bridge? Make use of Bay and Lyon? Or even connect Bronson/Commissioner with the Portage Bridge?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Dado

How would you deal with the routing of STO buses at the west end of downtown?

Would you send the STO buses over the Chaudière Bridge? Make use of Bay and Lyon? Or even connect Bronson/Commissioner with the Portage Bridge?

How about looping the STO buses over the Chaudière to Le Breton Station, left on Albert, down Slater, up Kent to Wellington heading west back onto Portage. We could then take out every single (or at least the vast majority) of STO buses off of Rideau and in front of Parliament hill.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

How about looping the STO buses over the Chaudière to Le Breton Station, left on Albert, down Slater, up Kent to Wellington heading west back onto Portage. We could then take out every single (or at least the vast majority) of STO buses off of Rideau and in front of Parliament hill.

A few weeks ago, I was uptown on business around 3:30 PM and there were probably at least 100 people waiting for their STO buses on rhe north side of Wellington, just west of the Supreme Court building. Why is Wellington St, which is a ceremonial, touristic and scenic route, used as a bus route anyway?

STO should be rerouted to Albert and Slater and made to go over the Prince of Wales Bridge at Bayswater. If the City of Ottawa, who owns the bridge, cannot have the foresight and vision to make use of that bridge to extend LRT to Gatineau, then maybe STO could use it and alleviate bus traffic uptown. The tunnel won't make the STO buses go away. Where are the NCC and private business when you need them?

It's a great shame that no one is willing to step forward and try to combine these two mass transit services into a seamless service to transport passengers both ways across the Ottawa River.

In my mind, that should have had precedence a long time ago to an underground tunnel scheme that is utterly costly and solves practically nothing as far as transportation by whatever means throughout the National Capital area.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

All the routes you mentioned are N-S or too far from the CBD, what we need is to maintain a DT E-W surface bus corridor. This is to support the many routes that will continue to run from the South and S-E and will still need to drop people off at multiple locations downtown when the buses get there. You can't expect the buses to run up Sussex then drop everybody off at RIdeau and expect them to walk km accross downtown. Also, this is a perfect opportunity to get the STO buses off of Wellington. It's kind of embarrassing that we have buses lined up in front of parliament, the Chateau Laurier, etc. at rush hour. Move them all to Albert/Slater once the majority of the OC routes have moved to the tunnel.

We're not really disagreeing here. What I was thinking of moving to Albert/Slater are the portions of downtown 'local' routes currently travelling on Queen and Wellington.

Moving STO buses to Albert/Slater is probably also an option that should be looked at.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

We're not really disagreeing here. What I was thinking of moving to Albert/Slater are the portions of downtown 'local' routes currently travelling on Queen and Wellington.

Moving STO buses to Albert/Slater is probably also an option that should be looked at.

So loop thru downtown Ottawa from King Eds, Waller, Mackenzie King, Albert/Slater, Booth and across the Chaudière?

It might be wise to keep the Albert/Slater bus lanes until we one day figure out a N/S transit solution (Bank Street Subway and an interprovincial transit solution that doesn’t involve buses).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I'm assuming that some "local" routes in downtown will still exist. I don't expect Bank, Bronson, Elgin, Somerset, Gladstone, Rideau, Dalhousie, & Sussex to be without any bus service after the LRT is operational. Other cities with mass transit in their downtowns still have bus service in their downtowns.

But the city & OC Transpo haven't shown us a hint of what kind of bus service we might expect after LRT is in full operation. I can always be surprised at the stupidity that might arise...

I can't. I always know there is room for moar stoopids from the people who keep splitting downtown routes, who think having a hub at Rideau is a problem in need of solving, who planned a half-hour gap into the schedule for Bank Street southbound service in the early evening, who reassigned artics off heavy-use inner-city routes, etc., etc.

They can always outstupid themselves. But hey, as long as the suburbanites are happier, that's the main thing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

It's kind of embarrassing that we have buses lined up in front of parliament, the Chateau Laurier, etc. at rush hour. Move them all to Albert/Slater once the majority of the OC routes have moved to the tunnel.

What's embarrassing about that?

The only sane place to have local bus routes connect with the LRT - AND WITH EACH OTHER - is Rideau. It's already bad enough that OC Transpo has segregated the 5 and 16 to the upper level on the bridge, and split a number of formerly cross-town routes to not productive effect.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Why is Wellington St, which is a ceremonial, touristic and scenic route, used as a bus route anyway?

If it's that sacred and holy, get rid of the cars, too.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So loop thru downtown Ottawa from King Eds, Waller, Mackenzie King, Albert/Slater, Booth and across the Chaudière?

I haven't really thought about the routing as the idea was brought up by others. It's likely that STO can probably make fuller use of the Albert/Slater bus lanes than the few remaining OCT buses.

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

It's a great shame that no one is willing to step forward and try to combine these two mass transit services into a seamless service to transport passengers both ways across the Ottawa River.

In an ideal world they would've already combined into a single transit system but with all the layers of bureaucracy & politicking in the way it's very unlikely to happen anytime soon. (It'll certainly never happen while the PQ is in charge either.)

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

We're not really disagreeing here. What I was thinking of moving to Albert/Slater are the portions of downtown 'local' routes currently travelling on Queen and Wellington.

No. No no no no no no no no no.

NO.

Albert and Slater are not where the transport desire lines are.

Rideau is. And Rideau is also the best location for transfers to/from the train for all these local routes, as well as transfers between local routes.

Your plan is a damn good way to destroy transit service in the inner neighbourhoods and make it as impractical and annoying as possible for the largest number of inner-area transit users.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I can't. I always know there is room for moar stoopids from the people who keep splitting downtown routes, who think having a hub at Rideau is a problem in need of solving, who planned a half-hour gap into the schedule for Bank Street southbound service in the early evening, who reassigned artics off heavy-use inner-city routes, etc., etc.

They can always outstupid themselves. But hey, as long as the suburbanites are happier, that's the main thing.

LOL, you know it wouldn't surprise me if OCT tries to force transfers to the LRT line which aren't really necessary. I can image them trying to have all the buses from the East (Vanier, New Edinburgh...) ending at Rideau forcing a transfer to the LRT just to get to Downtown-West.

We know most of the suburban routes will terminal at Tunney's, Hurdman & Blair. Maybe OCT should give us an idea of how inner-city routes might look like after the LRT is operational.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No. No no no no no no no no no.

NO.

Albert and Slater are not where the transport desire lines are.

Rideau is. And Rideau is also the best location for transfers to/from the train for all these local routes, as well as transfers between local routes.

Your plan is a damn good way to destroy transit service in the inner neighbourhoods and make it as impractical and annoying as possible for the largest number of inner-area transit users.

I see your point. We keep the inner city routes on Rideau/Wellington but that corridor is also full of STO buses. Can STO buses be easily routed to Albert/Slater? Many Gatineau commuters probably already walk a few blocks to/from their stop so moving it south a couple blocks probably won't annoy many and might actually be welcomed by some.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I completely agree you on this. The lanes should stay and have all the remaining downtown routes rerouted to take Albert & Slater such as the 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 16, & 85. Many routes could also use the Mackenzie King station which would then leave Wellington and the Rideau Street station mostly for STO buses. During evenings and late nights the OCT buses could be temporarily routed to use Rideau Street station to serve the Byward market crowds.

If everything else stays as is, only the 16 and 85 would be left on Albert and Slater. Having two routes can easily accommodate a redesign of those two streets.

One thought perhaps with Queen Street - a MEDIAN segregated bike path with separate signals? Is it wide enough to allow for 2 traffic lanes, 2 parking lanes and a median divided bike path? That way the complaints about loading on Laurier are not repeated.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

LOL, you know it wouldn't surprise me if OCT tries to force transfers to the LRT line which aren't really necessary. I can image them trying to have all the buses from the East (Vanier, New Edinburgh...) ending at Rideau forcing a transfer to the LRT just to get to Downtown-West.

We know most of the suburban routes will terminal at Tunney's, Hurdman & Blair. Maybe OCT should give us an idea of how inner-city routes might look like after the LRT is operational.

If that's the case, then why not have eastend LRT end at Rideau and westend LRT end at LeBreton and rely on a circuitous centretown bus service dedicated to the inner core only, that both OC Transpo and STO could use? This way, by saving on the tunnel cost, the lines could be extended to Orléans and to Kanata and there would not be any transfers at Blair and at Tunneys'.

If the weather's nice, most people would walk to work from Rideau or from LeBreton anyway, just like the STO riders walk to work from Rideau or from the far end of Wellington.

In Montreal and Toronto, you can walk for blocks and blocks underground as well as go shopping, go to the bank, your doctor and favourite thirst-quenching oasis. We won't be able to do that in Ottawa.

We'll be crowded on a narrow platform at a one to two hour-long rush hour and then feel vulnerable because there won't be many people around to protect you from getting mugged.

Reset the button please, Jim! Larry did.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

If everything else stays as is, only the 16 and 85 would be left on Albert and Slater. Having two routes can easily accommodate a redesign of those two streets.

One thought perhaps with Queen Street - a MEDIAN segregated bike path with separate signals? Is it wide enough to allow for 2 traffic lanes, 2 parking lanes and a median divided bike path? That way the complaints about loading on Laurier are not repeated.

Queen looks to be about as wide as Laurier. I doubt there's room to add bike lanes there without sacrificing parking. I'm not opposed to the idea but I can see it as a hard sell at the moment. It might be easier to justify if the Laurier lanes keep getting more popular to the point it getting traffic jams.