The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

My understanding of historical south end is different from yours - Dukes and Sydney Wards made up South End, and Kings, Queens, Wellington and Prince made up Central - the later including the "East End" which is pretty much torn down during urban redevelopment of 1960's. Notice how Britain Street was once harbourfront with slips for ships. It is now all infill and renamed Ross Street on that far western end.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Wow! This is one of the most uneducated posts I have seen in a long time.

Uptown Saint John features all of these things in spades. As others have metioned Saint John is the only downtown core in the entire province and we should be very proud of what we have.

I entirely agree with that statement, Saint John has the bones of a real downtown however, I would not downplay Fredericton that fast. Their downtown is vibrant, clean, convenient, well-kept and busy. I have always found that they have the best mix of retail, dining/pubs and business in the province. I was there yesterday and I can say that I saw few empty spots downtown. We all agree that Fredericton does not have the same level of architecture as Saint John but in terms of vibrancy I would put their dowtown ahead of Saint John for the Tannery alone...

[RyeJay]

Thank you for responding
Though I've been taken out of context somewhat, I will continue to attempt a civil conversation, regardless of the defensiveness I am seeing from disappointing forumers.

(But it isn't a worry, because I've seen worse comments from smarter people . I understand many people don't enjoy criticism.)

I'm a New Brunswicker, and have frequently visited Saint John, and would like to learn more about it, which is why I appreciate your reply.

My list was not a list of 'things not in Saint John'; rather, it was a list of things that pertain to city quality.

Let's look at Saint John's city qualities, shall well... (unless, of course, your post wasn't intended to give great detail about the city -- and was rather just to boast your municipal hurbis.)

Originally Posted by cdnguys

This is just not the case - you do not require a car to function here.
- there are numerous forms of transportation, including bike lanes, community carpool program "share your ride", "Parcobus" lot to share your ride, Harbour Passage connecting uptown, north end and west side and an excellent bus system IMO. Even the furthest reaches of the city have a 40' bus running to them, including Red Head, Martinon and Loch Lomand. We even have ComEx bus service to Grand Bay-Westfield, Kennececasis Valley and Hampton. The last two are so popular they run large accordion buses. Some runs go to east side shopping district serving retail workers from KV and there is seamless transfer to regional hospital and university.

I'm interested in discovering the volume of people these systems are capable of handling, versus the Saint John area's population.

Does your transit system still face threats of downsizing, since its operations are not supported by ridership, rather by government subsidies?

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Saint John is the leader in NB when it comes to public transportation. Just look at the park and ride lots. Plus commuting workers have WiFi

I'm unconcerned about New Brunswick comparisons.

WiFi is available on buses in most modern countries.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

as for walkable distances to work - every single employment cluster has a residential neighborhood nearby should people choose to work and live nearby. In fact ALL of the dense areas of Saint John are mixed use residential and employers. Drury Cove is the first in NB I believe that is a high end residential / office park.

Your business parks have residential?

Are you claiming that a significant number of people in the Saint John area live so close to work, they may simply walk? The proximal communities would negate this potential, I would think.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- Saint John has 3 downtown malls - Brunswick, Market and Prince Edward Squares.

And Downtown Halifax has Park Lane, Scotia Square, Granville... but the number of people shopping there is disproportionately far, far less than the amount of people travelling to suburban shopping districts, because the downtown locations offer virtually nothing in comparison.

This same instance applies for Saint John.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- as for versatile housing in core you can check all the boxes on your list

...ok?

I've looked at some Saint John real estate websites, and the market of the Uptown seems to be less than 5% of the Saint John area. I see new condo developments -- in particular on Water St; however, there also appears to be a number of unmaintained, decrepit Uptown properties that should be torn down.

What are you conveying in terms of "versatile"?

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- as for Parks and green spaces the city has a lot. Within the core itself is Rockwood Park, Public Gardens, Kings and Queens Sq, Loyalist burial ground, Rainbow park for kids, Fort Howe, Saint Andrew's Green, York Point, Garden Street Park, Chowen Field, Three Sisters Green, Barrack Green Field, Tin Can Beach, Fort Latour

Saint John suburbs do have lavish amounts of green space. Upon inward development, the core should hope to retain more on what has already been established.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- NB Museum is located right uptown on waterfront and across Harbour passage on Douglas ave. imperial theatre on Kings Sq is billed as the most beautiful in Canada by the arts community. Half a block away is the Saint John theatre company in a newly renovated historic property. Saint John uptown has great nightlife, culture and art galleries plus top notch restaurants in renovated historic buildings.

Wonderful! I'll take your word for this, I suppose. The bars seemed rather small and uneventful that last time I was in the city; although, that was a couple years ago.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- city core has St Joseph's hospital, medical clinics, teen sexual health / resource centre, 2 of the major high schools and UNBSJ buildings. Provincial, federal and local services all available in core. The library is located uptown also, with branches east and west.

St Joseph's hospital: bed number: 103. Hmmm...
Saint John needs better than this, I think, especially as your core further developers.

I'm also curious about the capacity of your library branches.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

- as for diversity of jobs, we are actually very diverse. We are actually a white-collar city by number of jobs considered blue/white. Saint John became diverse with the IT sector and health sciences sector to name just a couple. Saint John is well positioned for growth due to the availability of cheap industrial energy, rail connections, ice free port and available tradespeople and engineers.

Although the cheap industrial energy is not a long-term prospect because it isn't renewable energy, I agree with you that Saint John does have potential for growth. I've agreed with this point throughout the entire discussion. I simply just want a much, much larger portion of that growth to be inward: so that Uptown Saint John becomes even more vibrant.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

As for signature city scape, I did not say "skyline". And yes city scape does bring people to city. Just ask owner of Urban deli - she moved from Fredericton to open it when she saw cityscape. Same with new owner of Gothic Arches from Toronto and the owner of the wedding cake building who moved from Montreal to SJ when he discovered it. A CEO on a cruise was taken by the cityscape he opened a business here. I can think of three couples that visited city and fell in love with it and moved here. ( I live in historical area )

We were speaking in terms of new residents, which is why I claimed new jobs bring people to cities. We weren't talking about tourism, which is an entirely different aspect; although, I find a city's list of attractions on paper is a better way to garnish this form of business.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

But this is a short list. cdnguys provided a better insight.

I agree. Your list was redundant.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

My understanding of historical south end is different from yours - Dukes and Sydney Wards made up South End, and Kings, Queens, Wellington and Prince made up Central - the later including the "East End" which is pretty much torn down during urban redevelopment of 1960's. Notice how Britain Street was once harbourfront with slips for ships. It is now all infill and renamed Ross Street on that far western end.

What streets bound what was/is the "East End"?

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

St Joseph's hospital: bed number: 103. Hmmm...
Saint John needs better than this, I think, especially as your core further developers.

Can you think of a place remotely in the vicinity of Saint Joseph's hospital in which a hospital comparable to the SJRH could have be built, rather than in Millidgeville where it ended up being built? Because that's what would be required.

103 beds at St Joseph's works just fine for the current uptown core.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

What streets bound what was/is the "East End"?

The East End, not to be confused with East Side - was a neighborhood bordered by Waterloo Street from Union St to Haymarket Square to the north and Courtney Bay marshland to the south. Most of the streets disappeared with urban redevelopment and neighborhoods are now a shopping centre and 4 lane road. Prince Edward Street, Richmond and Exmouth streets are just a few of the remaining streets. It was considered a slum, however I would have preferred the kept the street grid.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Thank you for responding
Though I've been taken out of context somewhat, I will continue to attempt a civil conversation, regardless of the defensiveness I am seeing from disappointing forumers.

(But it isn't a worry, because I've seen worse comments from smarter people . I understand many people don't enjoy criticism.)

I'm a New Brunswicker, and have frequently visited Saint John, and would like to learn more about it, which is why I appreciate your reply.

My list was not a list of 'things not in Saint John'; rather, it was a list of things that pertain to city quality.

Let's look at Saint John's city qualities, shall well... (unless, of course, your post wasn't intended to give great detail about the city -- and was rather just to boast your municipal hurbis.)



I'm interested in discovering the volume of people these systems are capable of handling, versus the Saint John area's population.

Does your transit system still face threats of downsizing, since its operations are not supported by ridership, rather by government subsidies?



I'm unconcerned about New Brunswick comparisons.

WiFi is available on buses in most modern countries.



Your business parks have residential?

Are you claiming that a significant number of people in the Saint John area live so close to work, they may simply walk? The proximal communities would negate this potential, I would think.



And Downtown Halifax has Park Lane, Scotia Square, Granville... but the number of people shopping there is disproportionately far, far less than the amount of people travelling to suburban shopping districts, because the downtown locations offer virtually nothing in comparison.

This same instance applies for Saint John.



...ok?

I've looked at some Saint John real estate websites, and the market of the Uptown seems to be less than 5% of the Saint John area. I see new condo developments -- in particular on Water St; however, there also appears to be a number of unmaintained, decrepit Uptown properties that should be torn down.

What are you conveying in terms of "versatile"?



Saint John suburbs do have lavish amounts of green space. Upon inward development, the core should hope to retain more on what has already been established.



Wonderful! I'll take your word for this, I suppose. The bars seemed rather small and uneventful that last time I was in the city; although, that was a couple years ago.



St Joseph's hospital: bed number: 103. Hmmm...
Saint John needs better than this, I think, especially as your core further developers.

I'm also curious about the capacity of your library branches.



Although the cheap industrial energy is not a long-term prospect because it isn't renewable energy, I agree with you that Saint John does have potential for growth. I've agreed with this point throughout the entire discussion. I simply just want a much, much larger portion of that growth to be inward: so that Uptown Saint John becomes even more vibrant.



We were speaking in terms of new residents, which is why I claimed new jobs bring people to cities. We weren't talking about tourism, which is an entirely different aspect; although, I find a city's list of attractions on paper is a better way to garnish this form of business.

The ridership is 2,500,000 pax annually. Service was cut a small amount, but funding for the service was recently restored and then some with $1.5M additional dollars in new budget. Not sure what you mean not supported by ridership? It is of course subsidized but not 100% - the fare box contributes a portion.
Yes I am claiming people simply walk to work.
My list was meant to detail. Arrogance is not a character trait I'm known for.
Yes industrial parks have residential. The eastern industrial parks have Black River rd and Helena Drive new development subdivision. Lorneville has residential. Drury cove is a high end residential / office neighborhood.
As for library capacity - are you talking volume number of number of seats or square footage? Either, I'm confident they meet the needs of the community. As for malls, distressed properties, number of hospital beds - I guess I lost the point of your post, my apologies.
You sound really civic minded and I think that's awesome - however I think you need to do more reconnaissance of the city - email me at [email protected] and I can give you a tour if I'm available. I'm a civic geek - love watching youtube videos of European transportation systems or anything to do with city development. LOL I collected maps as a kid and buried myself in atlases. Hopefully I sound civil because I am - tone is easily lost in written texts.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

I entirely agree with that statement, Saint John has the bones of a real downtown however, I would not downplay Fredericton that fast. Their downtown is vibrant, clean, convenient, well-kept and busy. I have always found that they have the best mix of retail, dining/pubs and business in the province. I was there yesterday and I can say that I saw few empty spots downtown. We all agree that Fredericton does not have the same level of architecture as Saint John but in terms of vibrancy I would put their dowtown ahead of Saint John for the Tannery alone...

Yes, I agree with that Fredericton does have a nice little downtown. I lived in Fredericton for about five years and enjoyed the "vibrancy" of the Tannery on more than a few nights.

That being said, I would not consider Fredericton to have a downtown "core" on par or near what Saint John has to offer. There is definitely some good shopping and it is certainly clean but there is a real lack of restaurants in my opinion and no real character. Of course character is subjective and others may disagree.

[Peter_johnns]

Ryejay is, as they say; a "troll".

But I would also like to say Fredericton's downtown is not any more vibrant. Look at the population of both downtowns, look at the infrastructure, institutions etc. the numbers do not lie. Saint John has all of NB beat

[JHikka]

Today's Telegraph Journal has mention of a possible 'major' curling event coming to Saint John. There is a press conference in fifteen minutes to announce. Honestly i'd be letdown if it wasn't the Brier or Tournament of Hearts. It would be impressive if we got to host one of those shortly after hosting Skate Canada, as well.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

Ryejay is, as they say; a "troll".

Having strong opinions doesn't make him a troll.

[cdnguys]

2014 Ford World Curling Championship at Harbour Station in March

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

2014 Ford World Curling Championship at Harbour Station in March

Nice! Is this the second or third time that we have hosted?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

2014 Ford World Curling Championship at Harbour Station in March

Damnnnnnnnnnnnn

I believe second time after 1999. Better than Scotties tournament!

So..

Skate Canada International October 25-27, 2013
World Women's Curling March 15-23, 2014.

[cdnguys]

Be nice if the hotel on Fundy Quay is completed by then. Hopefully an announcement soon

[SaintJohner]

I have lived in Saint John for over 30 years, born and raised and love this city with all my heart, but I am confused at why we constantly compare our uptown to others Downtown's, we forget that our city has been Around A lot longer than ones like Moncton and Fredericton.

For example in 1901 we had a population of 40,711, Fredericton's population was 7,117 and Moncton's was 9,026. Moncton's population never reached over 40,000 till 60 years after ours and Fredericton 70 years after.

Our Saint Johns population was 89 thousand in 1971 and decreased 68 thousand in 2006, this last census was the first time since 1971 that our city has grown, yes the cma has grown but Saint John itself this is the first time in 40 years that we gained population.

My point is, we need to remember that we have been a city and have been a large city much longer than they have been, which in turn is why we have a more developed core, we were the first incorporated city in Canada and at one point we were the third largest city in the British North America after Montreal and Quebec City.

Anyway, we had a 60 year head start on our Uptown, Imagine in 15 - 30 years fredericton and Moncton could surpass us in core size.

So my plea is to the people on here, lets worry about continuing the growth in our city and continue to develop our core to make it as beautiful and populous as possible!!

We also have to remember that again its the first time in 40 years that we have gained population, our biggest thing would be to try and maintain that growth by finding ways to create more jobs.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, I do love the city and want to see the best for it. Sometimes it would be nice to see some of you on city council so that things would get done!

[MonctonRad]

Very good first post. Welcome to the forums!

[JHikka]

Thanks for joining and posting!

To any of you other lurkers out there, please register and join in! We don't bite that much. Seriously though, the more traffic on these forums the better for everyone involved!

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by SaintJohner

I have lived in Saint John for over 30 years, born and raised and love this city with all my heart, but I am confused at why we constantly compare our uptown to others Downtown's, we forget that our city has been Around A lot longer than ones like Moncton and Fredericton.

For example in 1901 we had a population of 40,711, Fredericton's population was 7,117 and Moncton's was 9,026. Moncton's population never reached over 40,000 till 60 years after ours and Fredericton 70 years after.

Our Saint Johns population was 89 thousand in 1971 and decreased 68 thousand in 2006, this last census was the first time since 1971 that our city has grown, yes the cma has grown but Saint John itself this is the first time in 40 years that we gained population.

My point is, we need to remember that we have been a city and have been a large city much longer than they have been, which in turn is why we have a more developed core, we were the first incorporated city in Canada and at one point we were the third largest city in the British North America after Montreal and Quebec City.

Anyway, we had a 60 year head start on our Uptown, Imagine in 15 - 30 years fredericton and Moncton could surpass us in core size.

So my plea is to the people on here, lets worry about continuing the growth in our city and continue to develop our core to make it as beautiful and populous as possible!!

We also have to remember that again its the first time in 40 years that we have gained population, our biggest thing would be to try and maintain that growth by finding ways to create more jobs.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, I do love the city and want to see the best for it. Sometimes it would be nice to see some of you on city council so that things would get done!

Welcome as well. I'm also somewhat new. I do not post as often as I'd like but I read the forum faithfully and become more and more intrigued each time with the discussions on here. We are loyal to a fault sometimes but civic pride is a worthy cause
Remember all good ideas do not start off as good ideas, often they are bad ideas that generate discussion and more thought and after some tweaking/brainstorming start to show potential as good ideas. I encourage more ideas from everyone as you never know where it will lead or end up.