[Moncton] Downtown Developments

[David_99]

Moncton councillor pegs cost of proposed centre at $165M

A Moncton city councillor is questioning the city's estimates for the future downtown centre and is raising concerns the lofty price tag isn’t worth the investment.

Moncton is pushing forward with a plan to build a downtown sports and entertainment complex on the site of the old Highfield Square Mall.

The city has estimated the facility will cost $100 million, but Coun. Daniel Bourgeois said he’s concerned the final cost will be much higher.

Coun. Daniel Bourgeois said he believes the cost of the downtown centre will be $165 million. (CBC)
“The downtown multiplex will cost citizens of Moncton $165 million. I repeat $165 million,” he said on Monday night.

Bourgeois said the city hasn't factored in what he calls the inevitable cost overruns or the cost of financing the project over 30 years.

Each Moncton taxpayer will have to pay an extra $100 in property taxes for 30 years to pay for this facility, according to the councillor.

Read More @ CBC News NB

[BlackYear]

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by David_99

Moncton councillor pegs cost of proposed centre at $165M

A Moncton city councillor is questioning the city's estimates for the future downtown centre and is raising concerns the lofty price tag isn’t worth the investment.

Moncton is pushing forward with a plan to build a downtown sports and entertainment complex on the site of the old Highfield Square Mall.

The city has estimated the facility will cost $100 million, but Coun. Daniel Bourgeois said he’s concerned the final cost will be much higher.

Coun. Daniel Bourgeois said he believes the cost of the downtown centre will be $165 million. (CBC)
“The downtown multiplex will cost citizens of Moncton $165 million. I repeat $165 million,” he said on Monday night.

Bourgeois said the city hasn't factored in what he calls the inevitable cost overruns or the cost of financing the project over 30 years.

Each Moncton taxpayer will have to pay an extra $100 in property taxes for 30 years to pay for this facility, according to the councillor.

Read More @ CBC News NB

Councillor Bourgeois is fearmongering. Having watched a number of city council sessions, it has become evident that Bourgeois has an opinion on virtually everything. I wonder if he is not trying to maintain a high public profile so that he can contest for the position of mayor when the time for the next election comes around.

Bourgeois has no idea what the cost of the events centre will be for the city. He has not factored in the provincial contribution (which Alward seems keen on making) or any federal money. I know that the feds are currently on the sidelines with regards to this issue, but I am firmly convinced that another stimulus program is in the offing, especially before the next federal election. With the time horizon for construction of the events centre, the timing of a federal contribution seems about right.

In addition, this will be a public/private partnership. There will be a signifcant input of private monies into this project, especially for any retail/commercial component. I remain intrigued by the possibility of a downtown retail development as part of this project, anchored by The Bay. If there is a convention centre as part of the project, there could also be a new hotel.

The actual cost of this project (all in) might very well be over $200M, but if $20M of this comes from the province, another $20M from the feds and an additional $50-60M from the private sector, then the city would still only be on the hook for $100M.

Bourgeois seems concerned about the operating costs of the facility and the costs of servicing the debt. This is part of his equation. While these costs do have to be considered, he does not seem to have taken into account the addition property tax revenues generated by this project, or the expanded commercial tax base in the surrounding area. If a proposed hotel occupancy tax is also factored in, then the operating costs of the events centre would likely be covered.

Bourgeois is premature in his assessment. Let's see what happens with the RFQ. We will have a much better idea of the costs of this venture once city hall has heard back from the potential developers.

In any event, the events centre remains a vital pivot for development in the downtown west end. Downtown Moncton will be much impoverished in it's absence. This is a coming of age moment for the city. Will we seize the day or not?

I say carpe diem!

[MonctonRad]

I must admit, I like your solution better Budyser.

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I remain intrigued by the possibility of a downtown retail development as part of this project, anchored by The Bay.

I was with you until "The Bay".

HBC is selling off their assets left and right. I wouldn't put much confidence in The Bay anchoring a helium balloon, let alone the entirety of the downtown retail development.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

I was with you until "The Bay".

HBC is selling off their assets left and right. I wouldn't put much confidence in The Bay anchoring a helium balloon, let alone the entirety of the downtown retail development.

I know what you mean but:
- moving out of Moncton was not the Bay's idea, it was Crombie REIT.
- the Moncton store was profitable to the end.
- I have it on good authority that Bay managers told employees at one of their last staff meetings in town that they were planning a reentry into the Moncton market.

There is no room at Champlain. The Bay does not build standalone suburban stores. That pretty much leaves a new downtown store as the only option. This leaves building a store as part of the events centre......

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I know what you mean but:
- moving out of Moncton was not the Bay's idea, it was Crombie REIT.
- the Moncton store was profitable to the end.
- I have it on good authority that Bay managers told employees at one of their last staff meetings in town that they were planning a reentry into the Moncton market.

There is no room at Champlain. The Bay does not build standalone suburban stores. That pretty much leaves a new downtown store as the only option. This leaves building a store as part of the events centre......

The Moncton store may have been profitable, but that doesn't mean squat when the rest of the company is crumbling around it.

The rest of their stores are run down, poorly maintained ghost towns.

I highly doubt HBC is planning on opening any more stores any time soon.

[JasonL-Moncton]

We HAVE to build this events center, have to...it HAS to be 10K permanent seats...it WILL be a catalyst for downtown like no other building in the last 40 plus years.

JL

[MonctonRad]

Editorial from today's T&T
http://22864.vws.magma.ca/index.php?&article_id=10301

Real concerns, or fear mongering?
Wednesday, December 05, 2012
Times & Transcript

We Say: Big projects require vision, intestinal fortitude

Councillor Daniel Bourgeois made a rather startling statement at Monday's regular council meeting; that a downtown events centre would cost $165 million, rather than the $100 million projected by senior city staff. Certainly that seemed to take Mayor George LeBlanc by surprise and we expect other councillors as well.

However, we will take Mr. Bourgeois at his word and assume his statement is based on real concerns rather than cheap politicking. Yet with funding arrangements not completed, without a firm being hired for the job or even without specifications from prospective contractors about how they would go about the work, Mr. Bourgeois has managed to come up with a $10-million overrun on construction costs alone.

If Council as a whole is convinced that is meaningful, we suggest they appoint a mature, experienced member as a watchdog for the project once it is under way. We'll go so far as to suggest Coun.

Brian Hicks, who reportedly did excellent work overseeing a new contract for downtown parking for the Rogers call centre. Coun. Hicks studied that issue carefully for years, dealing with proven numbers.

We note also that Mr. Bourgeois includes operational costs as part of his $65-million overrun.

Judging by the histor y of the past five or six decades it's fairly common knowledge that publicly funded events centres, large convention spaces and the like don't typically turn a profit. We expect many civic leaders in Canada and around the world will agree they are in fact intended to get as close to the black as possible in the course of a more vital function: driving related commercial projects in the surrounding area, thus expanding the tax base, creating jobs and doing all the other things that help a growing city keep growing. Provincial governments support such projects also, because increased sales tax revenue from entertainment and sports events helps all New Brunswickers.

Having said that, we still believe Moncton can lower its tax rate, not by cutting big projects that will aid future prosperity for all, but by eliminating expensive, unnecessary projects such as traffic rotaries.

It's interesting that the T&T editorialist used the same term (fearmongering) for the assertions of Councillor Bourgeois as I did. It's equally interesting that the editor also suggested that Bourgeois might just simply be politicking....

In any event, Councillor Bourgeois should be careful with how he proceeds with his opposition to the events centre. the events centre (I believe) has broad community support and if the general view becomes that he is merely playing politics with this issue, then he might pay a political price for this.....

[CdnEh]

When built, I wonder what will happen to the Coliseum.

Will it become to Moncton what The Lord Beaverbrook became to Saint John after Harbour Station was built? A general purpose rink? Does Moncton need another arena?

Will it be demolished? Sold off? Redeveloped?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

When built, I wonder what will happen to the Coliseum.

Will it become to Moncton what The Lord Beaverbrook became to Saint John after Harbour Station was built? A general purpose rink? Does Moncton need another arena?

Will it be demolished? Sold off? Redeveloped?

Good question!

In the recently passed city budget, $200k was set aside for initial planning for the new north end community centre which will be built next to Evergreen Park School.

Some of this expenditure however is slated to be spent exploring options for "repurposing" the coliseum as a community centre.

I'm not entirely sure what this means. One of the major traditional functions of the coliseum/agrena is as a trade show space. It might be difficult to reconcile this with any new function as a community centre. I hope the city isn't planning on using the new events centre for trade shows as I don't think the facility (as currently envisaged) would be able to handle this function. In addition, one of the arguments in favour of the new events centre is that it would remove scheduling conflicts between playoff games and trade shows which often occur in the springtime at the current coliseum, much to the consternation of the QMJHL.

Perhaps they will leave the agrena portion of the complex alone, and look at repurposing the arena portion. Will they want to maintain the ice surface? Perhaps. I believe there are currently 12 ice surfaces in the metro area. Crandall University is contemplating building a rink. If the coliseum ice surface is maintained, that would make 14 ice surfaces. Riverview is thinking of a new community centre in the Gunningsville area which might include 1-2 ice surfaces. The Centennial Arena in Dieppe is to be torn down and repurposed in the next couple of years. The rumour is that this might also become a two surface rink complex. If all this transpires, there could be as many as 17 ice surfaces in the metro area.

My guess is that they will keep the agrena and also will maintain the ice surface at the coliseum. An ice surface is versatile enough that it can be covered and used for basketball or for additional display space during trade show events. They will likely reduce the amount of seating at the coliseum though. In particular, the entire second tier of seating on the east side of the arena could be sacrificed and this space (as well as the concession space underneath) could be repurposed for other functions such as meeting rooms, squash or raquetball courts etc. A walking track could be built around the existing arena.

Renovations such as this would be relatively low cost and would allow trade shows to keep on using the coliseum/agrena in close-to-it's-current configuration while at the same time providing a community centre function to residents of the west end of the city.

[MonctonRad]

The overflow parking lot at Oulton's College on Flanders Court has now been paved. In addition, the second of the two "residence" apartment buildings on Flanders has topped out at four floors and is being roofed.

I don't think Oulton's owns either of the two apartment buildings on Flanders, but they have some uniformity with the main educational building, at least in terms of cladding and I'm sure they were built with students in mind. With the YMCA immediately adjacent, and with the second Oulton's (dental) building just down the street on Vaughan Harvey, the whole area is beginning to develop a "campus" feel to it.

[MonctonRad]

I see that they have completed the demolition of Wesley Memorial United Church.

In particular, they have taken down the church hall. I was under the impression they were thinking of preserving this building and perhaps repurposing it.

I wonder if there have been any changes in the plans for this site?

[NBNYer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I see that they have completed the demolition of Wesley Memorial United Church.

In particular, they have taken down the church hall. I was under the impression they were thinking of preserving this building and perhaps repurposing it.

I wonder if there have been any changes in the plans for this site?

Are there any plans for this site?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by NBNYer

Are there any plans for this site?

They had been talking about apartments or condos with ground floor retail/commercial.

I don't know how firm the plans are.

[MonctonRad]

The provincial capital works budget for 2013 has been released and confirms $5M towards a new oncology clinic for The Moncton Hospital.

I can confirm for you that demolition will begin at the hospital in January, with the old lab & x-ray wings to be taken down for the new building. Construction will take 18-24 months, hopefully with the new oncology clinic opening in late 2014.

In the short term, I lose my regular parking spot.

Oh well, short term pain for long term gain.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

The cruddy old 4 floor building on Botsford (across the street from the Canada Bread bakery) has come into new hands and is being renovated...a sign has gone up on it for Passage which was booted from Highfield Square.

This building is being renovated and repurposed as a community retailing centre, almost a market sort of thing. It will be called Botsford Station. Passage will be a tenant.

The building has good bones and deserves some love. I wish them well, but they are a little off the beaten path. They should advertise some in order to attract customers.....

[Good2go]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This building is being renovated and repurposed as a community retailing centre, almost a market sort of thing. It will be called Botsford Station. Passage will be a tenant.

The building has good bones and deserves some love. I wish them well, but they are a little off the beaten path. They should advertise some in order to attract customers.....

This is slightly off topic, but I just did a Google street view to have a look at the building, and it seems the street view camera car drove by an ambulance, fire truck, and 2 police cars when they scanned Botsford... http://goo.gl/maps/WC7O7

[mylesmalley]

Nice ambulance at least.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Nice ambulance at least.

Yeah, I wonder who built it?