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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #5181  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 9:37 PM
CBeats CBeats is offline
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Originally Posted by Spork View Post
Speaking of which, CBeats, does anybody know what the expected useful life of the SkyTrain structures are? It scares me to think of replacing any section of the guideway and what a disruption that would create.
Yeah, for sure newer Skytrain lines can last longer than the original Expo infrastructure. It's also important to note that new infrastructure like the Canada Line has been built to mitigate the risks associated with climate change, whereas older structures did not take that into account. The Broadway corridor won't be an exception to this. Whatever is built will be designed with even more stringent regulations to match the ever-increasingly dire climate change forecast.
     
     
  #5182  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2012, 12:47 AM
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jlousa jlousa is offline
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Unbeliveable how every topic is getting taken off-topic. If the current topics bore everyone so much then create a new one.
     
     
  #5183  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2012, 2:12 AM
Robert in Calgary Robert in Calgary is offline
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Originally Posted by CBeats View Post
You would think the Calgary LRT (especially because a huge portion of the extension is at grade) would be far cheaper per 100km than the Canada line.
From 11th St. downtown to 69th Street, I would say just under half of the route is at grade.

Here's the city video from 16th St. to 69th Street.

http://youtu.be/jGhOd6SMp4M


As for surface LRT on Broadway, the delusional Malcolm/Condon view of building ultra-cheap LRT and then running it ultra-hard (with the side blunders of less capacity and frequency than Skytrain, finding a garage site, scrapping the trolley route and most, if not all on street parking) continues to be a delusion and it needs to be pointed out to anyone who might be suckered in by the lies.
     
     
  #5184  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2012, 7:40 AM
JoeBugliati JoeBugliati is offline
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Unbeliveable how every topic is getting taken off-topic. If the current topics bore everyone so much then create a new one.
... or maybe try cut and cover?

     
     
  #5185  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2012, 4:01 AM
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xd_1771 xd_1771 is offline
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THIS ARTICLE provides an explanation of the Calgary LRT situation
The original $700 million estimate, while it did not take into account the additional levels of grade separation and other project scope changes, also did not take into account work done to surrounding roads, the high school, etc.

It's kind of like how the primary contractor's Evergreen Line work amounts to some $900 million to $1 billion, and the $1.4 billion budget accounts for other works such as that on North Road, power lines, the CP rail relocation, etc., as n-name posted on the other page. I went to Connect2Edmonton and requested that this email be forwarded to me actually (I was once called by a project manager at Evergreen Line who made it seem as if this wasn't the case, but this email would contradict that if from someone his senior), but no response yet.

-----------------

Now, let's get that out of the way and move back to some Broadway corridor discussion.

Huge analysis was outed this morning by SkyTrain for Surrey Initiative, examining the feasibility of a SkyTrain extension to Arbutus only (first) in favour of a more balanced regional rapid transit investment plan that includes Surrey in case of limited funding (and without excluding a full UBC SkyTrain solution later).

An interesting key point is the recommendation of a reintroduction of the non-stop 99 Special/Express (i.e. the 2003-2006 UBC to Broadway peak-hour nonstop service) but between Arbutus and UBC instead, on top of the 99 & 9.

Some key points:
Quote:
Evening the Scales: Exploring the feasibility of Broadway SkyTrain to Arbutus only (first) [LINK]
  • ...........the debate has moved to the point where many have considered the high expenses of a bored SkyTrain tunnel all the way to UBC (the only option currently supported by the City of Vancouver) or the potential that a SkyTrain extension would only be funded to Arbutus (halfway) as a justification to start advocating for LRT as an option that would create a full east-west non-stop option to UBC with somewhat improved capacity, despite the tradeoffs that would make such a system inferior and infeasible.
  • By extending higher-capacity SkyTrain service to Arbutus, travellers to UBC and students will still enjoy major benefits, as they will be ensured a reliable public transit service to the lower-demand areas of Arbutus where they can then more easily get onto a bus to UBC, without facing the hassle of Central Broadway riders – who would have already gotten off, and would have been easily accommodated by the superior capacity of SkyTrain service.
  • While a major rapid transit expansion to SFU had been proposed [CLICK HERE], it is not expected to be delivered in the same time frame and is not a priority [CLICK HERE]. To this, we would like to raise an important point regarding regional prioritization of rapid transit investments. Some regional transit advocates are arguing that UBC should receive priority over the transit-shorthanded City of Surrey for rapid transit investments; but if UBC needs be prioritized for rapid transit investment before the City of Surrey, then so does SFU’s Burnaby Mountain Campus.
  • Limited-stop express services are more efficient – they can complete more trips with less service hours and annual operating costs, because the removal of stops shortens travel time, increases overall speed, and increases service hour efficiency. A non-stop peak hour express from a future Arbutus SkyTrain station to UBC will maximize capacity for travellers from Arbutus and from all new and existing SkyTrain stops east heading into UBC. Such a combination would make sense, as 50% of UBC commuters come from outside the City of Vancouver – but the service would not restrict the non-stop express benefit to travellers from Commercial-Broadway only, as did the previous implementation of the 99 Express.
A non-stop peak-hour only (or all day?) nonstop from Arbutus to UBC would create a balance between the somewhat superior time of a single LRT ride (26 minutes, assuming no disruptions) and the need for reliability/capacity of SkyTrain to service Central Broadway, without the megamassive initial capital cost bill and without excluding the future potential of a SkyTrain into UBC (by way of putting an LRT there instead).

Broadway is less busy west of here (i.e. less traffic disruptions, less volume in general, and less leapfrogging busses) and a non-stop bus would remove dwell times at 4 stops. By my calculations, the average SkyTrain dwell time is some 52 seconds from (decleration start to acceleration finish)... so the travel time would be similar to taking the UBC Rapid Transit Study Combo 2 alternative but with Combo 1-like travel times? (And operating cost benefit). In any case this'd be way more reliable in a way - considering that SkyTrain is out of the way completely, and that buses unlike a fixed-rail service can reroute around closed sections of the corridor - than LRT.

Just taking the assumption of a 4 minute savings per trip from Arbutus (at some stops it might not even be close to this, but I'd think that that's balanced with more difficult boarding onto buses vs. trains, i.e. what if the wheelchair ramp needs to go down), that releases an additional service hour for every 15 one-way trips - and each service hour can fit some 3-extra one-way trips. So, one extra trip for every five. Assuming the existing 2-minute peak frequency, if every second trip were revised into a non-stop express... that could be some 5-6 extra bus loads - between 600 to 720 people - a ~20% increase to some 4320 pphpd from 3600, during the peak hour. Let's say 99 frequency west of Arbutus is improved to every 90 seconds after 99 service stops east of there. 40 trips an hour or 4800 up from 3600 pphpd with the existing 99. Change every second trip into an express = 8 extra trips. Instantly, could be above 5000 and up to 5760 pphpd - a 60% net improvement from existing B-Line service - and without the lag from Central Broadway ridership to delay buses and cause leapfrogging & delays.

Last edited by xd_1771; Dec 16, 2012 at 4:21 AM.
     
     
  #5186  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2012, 4:15 PM
Gordon Gordon is offline
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There is some discussion about LRt on west 16th to UBC. if this were built where would the connection to the current skytrain be? If there is no connection would this not defeat the purpose of the line or at least a big negative for such a line.
     
     
  #5187  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2012, 5:36 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
There is some discussion about LRt on west 16th to UBC. if this were built where would the connection to the current skytrain be? If there is no connection would this not defeat the purpose of the line or at least a big negative for such a line.
It makes zero sense to run along 16th Avenue. The value of running a line to UBC is not just to reach UBC, it is also to connect UBC with the Broadway corridor on which much of the UBC population depends. This proposal is a clear case of NIMBY nonsense and will not go anywhere.
     
     
  #5188  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 8:36 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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  #5189  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 9:08 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
The short answer is I don't know all the reasons.
The slightly longer answer is Patric Condons paper would get a failing grade as an undergrad paper, he just cherry picked the cheapest examples of LRT and said why doesn't Broadway cost the same...the lower cost prices would not even cover the costs of the LRVs required for Broadway. Some additional factors: we would need a large operations and maintainance yard (at near downtown realestate prices). Underground utilities and I assume a requirement to keep a significant amount of road available to vehicles during construction.
     
     
  #5190  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 9:18 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
Because they aren't cherry picked like Condon's numbers.
     
     
  #5191  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 9:42 PM
Northski Northski is offline
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Portland streetcar capital cost was 147million for 11000 riders per day or 13,363 capital cost per daily rider.

The Broadway subway will cost 2.8 billion for a per day ridership of 200,000 or 14,000 capital cost per daily rider.

For Comparison the new Port Mann costs 2.46 billion for 130000 current trips per day or a capital cost of 18000 per trip per day.

And a downtown parking stall costs about between 30000-40000$ to construct.
     
     
  #5192  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
I would imagine due to needing to acquire land for and build an OMC in a heavily populated area, combined with utilities relocation down Broadway, although there seems to be some debate on the second point.
     
     
  #5193  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 11:45 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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I wonder how many people who were stuck on buses on Broadway, or who were unable to get to / from UBC, or couldn't get get to their jobs or appointments at VGH & City Hall are now FOR an underground Broadway Skytrain?

Nothing like a Vancouver SNOWpocalypse to show how surface transit (today's buses or future LRT) doesn't work too well when Vancouver gets a true dose of wintery conditions.
     
     
  #5194  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2012, 11:48 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northski View Post
Portland streetcar capital cost was 147million for 11000 riders per day or 13,363 capital cost per daily rider.

The Broadway subway will cost 2.8 billion for a per day ridership of 200,000 or 14,000 capital cost per daily rider.

For Comparison the new Port Mann costs 2.46 billion for 130000 current trips per day or a capital cost of 18000 per trip per day.

And a downtown parking stall costs about between 30000-40000$ to construct.
This is a great simple comparison. The PMB and Broadway line clearly pay their own operating expenses, I wonder if the same can be said for the Portland streetcar. I doubt it, but it's also only $1/ride or something.
     
     
  #5195  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
I wonder how many people who were stuck on buses on Broadway, or who were unable to get to / from UBC, or couldn't get get to their jobs or appointments at VGH & City Hall are now FOR an underground Broadway Skytrain?

Nothing like a Vancouver SNOWpocalypse to show how surface transit (today's buses or future LRT) doesn't work too well when Vancouver gets a true dose of wintery conditions.
I was thinking the same thing as I tried to get to Broadway and Cambie by going Westbound Expo->Westbound 99 at around 5pm. After seeing the lines, I called it quits and went via Expo/Canada.
     
     
  #5196  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 12:29 AM
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The only real way to see how much it would cost to build LRT in Vancouver is to actually build it. It's something we have never done before in this area, so the impact of local variables is completely unknown.

LRT might be cheaper in some of the other examples because the ROW is a derelict or abandoned freight railway. I bet building LRT down the Arbutus Corridor WOULD be cheap and in line with what some other cities pay. Other cities, especially in Europe have historically wide boulevards, used to have parades or march troops to impress/oppress the city population. If we build surface LRT on the Cambie or King Edward median, I bet it would be in line with what other cities have paid.

But how many of the other examples have built their first LRT line down the busiest road in their city? How many have reduced lane capacity (especially cities without major freeways through or circling the location of transit)?

It's hard to know what any of these variables would have on building an LRT line without first getting some experience.

Before we built the Expo line, we built a test track to see if it could be done, and how much it would cost. And we didn't build it in the middle of nowhere to minimize cost either, we built it down a short stretch of one of the busiest roads into the downtown core (and if we fucked up, there were alternative routes people could use if Terminal was out of action, unlike Broadway).

If we hadn't had local experience building the Expo line, I think people would never have thought we could build the Millennium line for $1 billion. Or build a full blown automated subway under the downtown core (Canada Line) for under $3 billion. Cities around the world easily pay twice as much for what we got.

Now I'm not saying that we build things cheap compared to elsewhere, just that we don't know the cost until we have some practice.

So what I suggest is we build out the Downtown Streetcar as a primer for LRT in the region. Much of the ROW has already been reserved and set aside (keeping property acquisition costs out of the picture) and a lot of the planning done. Meaning that the cost at the end of the project would represent the actual construction cost of building Light Rail in street ROW. You can also judge the public reaction to Light Rail. You can see if more or fewer people than projected ride. The impact on traffic can be judged. It also has the benefit of not being down the middle of any major streets, so if for some reason, we don't like it that much, it hasn't irreparably harmed the transportation grid, or taken away from other planned projects.

And the cost is estimated to be substantially less and the scope is small. So if we are wrong, and light rail costs MORE than we think, we aren't blowing hundreds of millions to get it done. A 20% overage on a $120 million budget isn't as bad as a 10% overage on a billion dollar budget.

Nothing would be worse than actually going forward with LRT, having it end up costing MORE than we thought, then having people like it LESS than we thought, and saving less time than we thought, in the end wishing we spent a little bit more on a subway.

I'm even worried about putting LRT through the busiest Surrey streets before testing it out in a less critical application (like building the downtown Streetcar).
     
     
  #5197  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 2:12 AM
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How about we don't waste money building an LRT line where it doesn't belong (Broadway) and just build the damn thing as its supposed to be built: SkyTrain
     
     
  #5198  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 4:08 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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BC Transit is very committed to building LRT in Victoria, and I am sure the NDP will make it their pet project if elected, so why not use a small phase 1 of that project as a testbed for the technology. From that we can learn whether it is appropriate for Surrey (or, less likely, for Broadway).
     
     
  #5199  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Lets not confuse streetcar and LRT. The Vancouver street car project could be a good idea, but I don't think it's a true test.

I'm not sure what they are doing in Victoria, is that a street car or LRT? I thought there was some commuter train starting there too.
     
     
  #5200  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2012, 5:05 AM
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Landmate Landmate is offline
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Hello everyone. I've frequented SSP for probably 5 years and finally decided to get my own account and start commenting.

To clarify transit in Victoria. BC Transit refers to their rapid transit project as LRT, which seems fairly accurate since the line operates mostly within a transitway ROW, though this will be still road-based and not atop a median or an existing rail corridor. However, once you factor the 40 meter long (presumable 2-car) consists running on this line, I see it as being more of a streetcar in scope, especially when comparing it against something like the Calgary C-Train.

WarrenC12, not sure if this might be what you mean by commuter rail, but there are also plans (volunteer and federal) to refurbish the existing E&N freight ROW between Vic and Nanaimo, and resume twice-daily service between both cities using up to three Dayliner type DMUs, courtesy of Via Rail. More of a tourist thing I suppose.

Links here:
Victoria LRT
E&N Dayliner
     
     
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