The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That doesn't really answer the question that I had presented, though. What incentive is there today to get people in suburbs to agree to amalgamate into a so-called failing city? People aren't going to listen to you if you tell them their livelihoods will be in danger in 10, 15, 20 years. They need to be provided a direct, immediate reason for amalgamation. Anything else, according to them, would just be presumption.

I think it would be feeble for people in suburbs to amalgamate into the city and then restrict all development in their communities. There's no way citizens would agree to join a city that would thus neglect the areas that just amalgamated. Someone living in Westfield or Gondola Point isn't going to join a city so all their tax money can go into the Peninsula. I agree that inward urbanism is something that needs to be done to become sustainable but the city of Saint John is going to have to do that on its own without the help of the suburbs. If the city can show that it's on the right track (building an urban core) then it will bring people back into the city by moving and redistribution and not through the means of amalgamation. The city can begin working on its core now (which it has begun already with PlanSJ) and if that goes well then changes should arrive from that. I know I keep harping on it, but taxes and rates need to drop before the city even dreams of winning people back. There's no reason for the city to have some of the highest rates for water, police, and fire in the country other than the accumulation of years of mistakes and difficulties.

Nobody ever wants amalgamation if you are the one being absorbed. Technically speaking the province doesn't need to convince anyone - they can force amalgamation. Municipalities can protest all they want but their powers are derived from provincial legislation. One could argue its political suicide to do something unpopular, but I think tough choices are ahead.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That doesn't really answer the question that I had presented, though. What incentive is there today to get people in suburbs to agree to amalgamate into a so-called failing city? People aren't going to listen to you if you tell them their livelihoods will be in danger in 10, 15, 20 years. They need to be provided a direct, immediate reason for amalgamation. Anything else, according to them, would just be presumption.

There is no need to convince any suburbanite. Their communities can be merged, legally by the province, whenever the province so chooses. It is a politically easier process when the municipalities in question request amalgamation, when they realise the budgetary and business advantages.

The wellbeing of people in the suburbs is in danger, not in 10 or 20 years; it's in danger now. The unemployment rate isn't just for Saint Johners. Many suburbanite jobs are located in SJ; so yes, the suburbanites need to give a damn.

I've given you many reasons, and you reply with "You haven't given me any reasons..."

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think it would be feeble for people in suburbs to amalgamate into the city and then restrict all development in their communities. There's no way citizens would agree to join a city that would thus neglect the areas that just amalgamated. Someone living in Westfield or Gondola Point isn't going to join a city so all their tax money can go into the Peninsula. I agree that inward urbanism is something that needs to be done to become sustainable but the city of Saint John is going to have to do that on its own without the help of the suburbs. If the city can show that it's on the right track (building an urban core) then it will bring people back into the city by moving and redistribution and not through the means of amalgamation. The city can begin working on its core now (which it has begun already with PlanSJ) and if that goes well then changes should arrive from that. I know I keep harping on it, but taxes and rates need to drop before the city even dreams of winning people back. There's no reason for the city to have some of the highest rates for water, police, and fire in the country other than the accumulation of years of mistakes and difficulties.

Inward urbanism is something on which every community must work -- not just Saint John. All communities can grow their tax base by increasing density, and resisting the wasteful spending of more roads...more utilities...more water and sewer...expanding police...expanding hospital coverage...expanding fire protection...forever outward...forever never paying for it...forever needing more federal welfare...

Your hypothesis about taxes would mean that Toronto and Vancouver should be dying. Saint John isn't doing poorly because its taxes are too high; Saint John is doing poorly because the suburbs are not paying their fair share in taxes; Saint John is doing poorly because it lacks the appeal of a city; Saint John is doing poorly because it cannot invest in job creation because it has stretched its budget far beyond rational means.

Without federal equalisation transfers -- without free money from 'have' provinces -- no area in New Brunswick would stay afloat. I do not at all enjoy this reality because I love my home province and dearly want it to grow and succeed -- but we are choosing to be an stubbornly entitled culture of defeat. We are choosing to not live within our means.

We are spending far too much money on the wrong priorities, and we are allowing municipal pride to hold us back from making common sense decisions that other provinces have long gotten over because they want to be economically competitive.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Nobody ever wants amalgamation if you are the one being absorbed. Technically speaking the province doesn't need to convince anyone - they can force amalgamation. Municipalities can protest all they want but their powers are derived from provincial legislation. One could argue its political suicide to do something unpopular, but I think tough choices are ahead.

God forbid... But if NB ever needed a bail out, one of the first things upon which Ottawa would insist is amalgamation wherever possible.

I hope the province's economy never gets this bad, but realistically, there is a very strong probability that it could get this bad or worse.

Even with an approved fracking industry: New Brunswick's cities are wide, far too low-density, and do not collect enough in tax revenues to support their own weight. This harms economic growth.

New Brunswick is a beautiful province and deserves better than the old, ineffective ideas to which its clinging. We need to build this province for the future.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The wellbeing of people in the suburbs is in danger, not in 10 or 20 years; it's in danger now.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

What I was suggesting was to try telling a suburbanite that their wellbeing is in danger today. Let me know what kind of response you get, because I know what kind of response i've gotten upon asking people why they choose to live in Hampton instead of Saint John.

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Inward urbanism is something on which every community must work -- not just Saint John. All communities can grow their tax base by increasing density, and resisting the wasteful spending of more roads...more utilities...more water and sewer...expanding police...expanding hospital coverage...expanding fire protection...forever outward...forever never paying for it...forever needing more federal welfare...

Ok. I'm going to assume that you are implying that the municipality would be cutting services such as fire and water and putting that money towards increasing density...which would be restricting development outside of a certain urban zone.

City council did this a year back with a proposed subdivision in Loch Lomond. You know what the public's reaction was? Why would the City of Saint John restrict developments within city limits?

Fact of the matter is i'm not disagreeing with everything you say, but what I am saying is that city council has to play at public opinion, as well. It's easy to preach to a group of people who post on a forum about urbanism and density but try going to a Wal-Mart, or City Hall, or anywhere else, and what kind of reaction do you get? Most people like living in their bubbles and couldn't care less. As long as they have a yard and a garage they're completely content. There is still a very prevalent rural mindset in many people in the region and it's not easy to convince them that a city's urban core is important. I spent a solid hour with some older people trying to tell them that the relocation of MHS outside of Moncton was bad and they just gave me blank expressions throughout. Point is, all of us on here can be on board, but if the rest of the public isn't it becomes rather difficult.

As time goes on and demographics change it should be easier to move towards an urban mindset. Current City Council is completely in favour of improving the urban core and they're doing all things to aid that, along with diversifying the local economy. As of right now i'd say City Council is doing just about everything they can to work towards your goal inward urbanism.

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Your hypothesis about taxes would mean that Toronto and Vancouver should be dying. Saint John isn't doing poorly because its taxes are too high; Saint John is doing poorly because the suburbs are not paying their fair share in taxes; Saint John is doing poorly because it lacks the appeal of a city; Saint John is doing poorly because it cannot invest in job creation because it has stretched its budget far beyond rational means.

And for the provincial government that forces the suburbs to merge into the larger cities it would be political suicide. If the suburbs aren't willing to amalgamate with Saint John then the party in power risks their own jobs by forcing amalgamation on those who do not want it. Unfortunately, four years is not long enough of a mandate to fully implement everything else that would go along with amalgamation of municipalities. Even if that were the case, the municipality governments would have to be on board 100% in such a scenario.

I'd like to hear some solutions rather than you continuing to point out the problems. By now, everyone here is familiar with what our problems are. Solutions are welcome, and not broad-based solutions like inward-urbanism. How do we get there?

As well, why don't you post in the St. John's threads? They're having a hell of a time with sprawl and municipalities not playing nice.

[Peter_johnns]

About 80% of the pop. of SJ suburbs are fomer SJ citizens who simply moved into the 'burbs... and the percentage of how many work in the city is equally as high. The suburbs are not self sustaining like Dieppe or Riverview. They only exist because of Saint Johners who do not want to live within city limits. The Saint John Metro is a whole different scenario than that of moncton

[CdnEh]

Has there been any actual discussion of amalgamation of the SJ area outside of SSP?

Yes, it is most definitely in residents of the suburbs best interests to amalgamate - aside from a retail jobs, there are near literally NO jobs in the KV, and if Saint John were to crumble, it'd take the KV right down with it.

However, it'd be a tough sell. We can't even get Rothesay and Quispamsis to amalgamate with eachother (something that needs to be done desperately), let alone with the rest of the city.

If Rothesay and Quispamsis were to merge, it'd eclipse Dieppe in population to become the province's 4th largest city.

[RR Drummer]

Wow !! You can really do miss alot sometimes when you skip a few days I'll weigh in with my thoughts

That said I am enjoying the amalgamation discussion immensely. There are pros and cons for sure. I belive in tough decisions, decisions that we can make so that our children and their children will be able to have quality communities in and continued quality of life in our fair province.
I could care less what political party is in power, whose government, which municipaly leader is in office, etc. Those who are on a self agenda platform need to step aside. If it saves money, saves communities and promotes growth, both in people and economics then that is what needs to be done. Period. No more spending years trying to fix situations and band aid communities, waiting for some cycle to pass or magic solution to happen out of the blue.
Just look at the cities, towns of the North Shore as an example. Great people, great beauty, but in many ways dying communities and have been for years. As a former resident of Chatham, I was there in the days when the prov of NB formed the City of Miramichi. The towns and villages were dying, but today it is still there. Some may argue regarding its survival, however they still maintain their previous identities among locals and former residents. It has had many rough years due to economic times but overall it has appeal and has much to offer if given the right oppurtunity.
That all said the municipalities of Greater Saint John must be amalgamated. Wether by agreement or by mandate. There is no other choice. It will not solve all our problems, but will provide a more solid tax base, a more fair and shared use of services, and be more attractive to current and future investment. That in itself will go a long way in creating solutions to our current fiscal problems. I'm not a politician, I'm not an investor, I hold no status or right to say anything really, other than as a citizen of Saint John I am of the opinion we must act now.
History accounts in a very famous book, a world best seller, pens the words, "where the people had a mind to work". In this situation a city, world renowned for its power and prestige lay crumbled and in ruins. But some people decided that it was time to rebuild, it was time to restore, and it was time to go to work. It took much effort, much labour, many hands but they were able to raise that city from the ruins it was in and reclaim it as the city it could be but first the people had to have a mind to work.
I believe we are in that same situation, we just need some visionaries, some men and women who will forgo agendas and make decisions, as tough and challenging as they may be and roll up their sleeves and get to work, to ensure our city and all areas within it and around it survives, grows, and thrives.

[Peter_johnns]

Mel Norton declined for comment

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Your hypothesis about taxes would mean that Toronto and Vancouver should be dying. Saint John isn't doing poorly because its taxes are too high; Saint John is doing poorly because the suburbs are not paying their fair share in taxes; Saint John is doing poorly because it lacks the appeal of a city; Saint John is doing poorly because it cannot invest in job creation because it has stretched its budget far beyond rational means.

Not sure what you mean "lacks appeal of a city"? Thats kind of subjective.
No, we don't have many roadside attractions - but IMO the city has a lot to offer. The uptown and Trinity Royal area offers a signature cityscape unlike anywhere else in Canada and the system of bays and rivers with the marinas and sailboats is spectacular. Also, having the highest unemployment of the three major cities doesn't make it the poorest economy. The GDP of the oil refinery alone is massive. Saint John has a lot of high-paying jobs. A tradesperson at refinery year round including shutdown can make in excess of $150,000 to $200,000 - the equivalent of 4 good paying jobs. And the are a lot of them.

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Not sure what you mean "lacks appeal of a city"? Thats kind of subjective.
No, we don't have many roadside attractions - but IMO the city has a lot to offer. The uptown and Trinity Royal area offers a signature cityscape unlike anywhere else in Canada and the system of bays and rivers with the marinas and sailboats is spectacular. Also, having the highest unemployment of the three major cities doesn't make it the poorest economy. The GDP of the oil refinery alone is massive. Saint John has a lot of high-paying jobs. A tradesperson at refinery year round including shutdown can make in excess of $150,000 to $200,000 - the equivalent of 4 good paying jobs. And the are a lot of them.

I am echoing cdnguys statements and replying to RyeJay:

No, we do not have any Crystal Palaces haha...

In terms of "appeal of a city" lol... have you seen Fredericton or Moncton? Sorry but Saint John not only has the appeal of a city, but is the only city that does in NB. The sheer volume of infrastructure alone in Saint John alone speaks to this. Saint John is the only city with a 'city-esque' downtown. Saint John has what business's want to invest in—naturally.

[Joe]

We also have low employment in public sector jobs. We have the least of the four cities.
Add 2000 jobs and our unemployment level wouldn't be as high.



Federal government employment, wages and salaries, by census metropolitan area
(Employment)
2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
employment (persons)
Total census metropolitan areas 289,555 297,229 316,826 315,274 315,455

St. John's (N.L.) 4,941 4,899 5,198 5,094 5,046
Halifax (N.S.) 16,998 16,964 17,376 17,381 17,359
Moncton (N.S.) 2,990 2,950 3,224 3,179 3,163
Saint John (N.B.) 996 1,111 1,084 1,031 1,024

[kwajo]

I'm glad someone else pointed out that we do not have the worst economy of the cities in the Maritimes, given that we supply far more revenue to the provincial coffers than any other part of the province.

[cdnguys]

Many people that are not from Saint John are not aware of the beauty of the city - they may only know of center and industrial areas. They should take a drive along Kennebecasis Dr up to Westmount Drive and Pelton Rd looking down at the bay and all the sailboats. Or the beautiful neighborhoods like Drury Cove, Ragged Point, Mount Pleasant north.
Also not many cities our size has an Olympic sized pool right in center. Rockwood park with the lakes and trails is beautiful. This city has a lot to offer.

[Peter_johnns]

Saint John has the greatest potential. Imagine the kind of things we would see if there was such a thing as fair equity in this province.

[JHikka]

Somerset & Technology (Dec 11th). That's four storeys.


As well, there is a zoning amendment being requested for Cambridge Estates in Millidgeville (off Boars Head Road). The amendment requests that the propety be changed from single family, double family, and townhouses to three-storey residential. This will be infill for the largest undeveloped area of land in Millidgeville. At the southern portion of this undeveloped area is Forbes Drive, where the Main Street Baptist Church is currently building a new facility.

And, because it's always good for a laugh, Rothesay development news:

Public Hearing Angers Rothesay Residents

A large group of Rothesay residents walking home furious from Town Hall after losing their fight to stop a by-law that will see a new apartment building at 11-13 Sierra Avenue.

Their objections were heard at a public meeting for a proposed 15 unit, high quality apartment building with 24 parking spaces. The Public Advisory Committee was not in favour of the project but after council heard from both the public and developer it voted to put it through for a final decision with one Councillor against.

Resident Diane Riley says she feels sold out for taxes and council's decision has put "a nail in her coffin." She fears the apartment complex will be too close to their homes, bring too much noise and car headlights will shine in her windows.

Gary Corscadden says the apartments will decrease their property values and create too much traffic on their street that's 1/2 a kilometer long.

Developer Stephen Perry, from Brunswick Enginering and Consulting, explained to council they would build a barrier fence to block any headlights that would bug residents.

When it comes to worrying about flooding, Perry says they have a storm water management plan and will put in a stormceptor to remove pollutants.

Perry tells CHSJ news it's unfortunate residents are upset but with other apartments nearby it's not a detriment to the area. He says the building will also create 70 new jobs.

Mayor Bill Bishop tells CHSJ news when the P-A-C voted the proposal down it was because it didn't have answers to noise and flooding issues, which was addressed in the meeting. Bishop admits there was deviation to the municipal plan, but says as things develop the town must have the ability to make changes. He says it's not too much of a deviation, since the area is not zoned as a single family location but as a residential, duplex, multi-housing area.

The final decision will be made at the next Rothesay council meeting on January 14th.

http://country94news.blogspot.ca/2012/12/public-hearing-angers-rothesay-residents.html

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Not sure what you mean "lacks appeal of a city"? Thats kind of subjective.
No, we don't have many roadside attractions - but IMO the city has a lot to offer. The uptown and Trinity Royal area offers a signature cityscape unlike anywhere else in Canada and the system of bays and rivers with the marinas and sailboats is spectacular. Also, having the highest unemployment of the three major cities doesn't make it the poorest economy. The GDP of the oil refinery alone is massive. Saint John has a lot of high-paying jobs. A tradesperson at refinery year round including shutdown can make in excess of $150,000 to $200,000 - the equivalent of 4 good paying jobs. And the are a lot of them.

Allow me to objectify this for you:
- Numerous forms of public transit
- Walkable distances between residential clusters and sources of jobs (often established via mixed-use residential/commercial urban developments)
- Downtown malls
- Parks
- Versatile market of townhouses, condos, apartments, and single-family dwellings inside the city core
- Museums, theatres, and other forms of downtown entertainment
- Schools, hospitals, and other forms of downtown public services
- Diversity of industries and available jobs
- etc...

If you live in Saint John, you most likely require a vehicle in order to function within the municipality. In 'major' urban centres car ownership is not required because of the established density and public transit.

A '"signature cityscape" is more deserving of your 'subjective' claim, because skylines do not effectively draw people to a city: Jobs do; convenient and stable quality of life does; excitement does.

I'm not trying to convey that Saint John is the poorest of the three cities. That's beside the point. None of NB's cities are working their way toward being revenue neutral.

Yes, there are some high-paying jobs in the Saint John area, but the quantity is obviously not enough to bring down your unemployment rate, nor is it enough to pay for the area's sprawled framework.

New Brunswick's population is quickly aging because its youth is moving elsewhere.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

I am echoing cdnguys statements and replying to RyeJay:

No, we do not have any Crystal Palaces haha...

In terms of "appeal of a city" lol... have you seen Fredericton or Moncton? Sorry but Saint John not only has the appeal of a city, but is the only city that does in NB. The sheer volume of infrastructure alone in Saint John alone speaks to this. Saint John is the only city with a 'city-esque' downtown. Saint John has what business's want to invest in—naturally.

Please broaden your comparisons.

New Brunswickers are certainly not limited to municipalities within this province in which to live; therefore, it stands to reason that the impressions we hold of our 'cities' should be, at least, equally as broad.

From a national perspective, NB's cities are akin to what you'd find in the suburbs of cities in Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia.

Internationally, NB would not be considered as having any actual cities, regardless of the labels we apply. A population of 150,000 isn't a metropolis. So please, allow us to evaluate our strengths and weaknesses on more than just mere regional comparisons, because we don't want to limit our thinking for what's possible.

Otherwise, change will never occur, unless the economy becomes so poor that the federal government needs to step in (which is seeming more likely).

If Saint John was such a 'natural' place for investment, we would not be having this conversation.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Many people that are not from Saint John are not aware of the beauty of the city - they may only know of center and industrial areas. They should take a drive along Kennebecasis Dr up to Westmount Drive and Pelton Rd looking down at the bay and all the sailboats. Or the beautiful neighborhoods like Drury Cove, Ragged Point, Mount Pleasant north.
Also not many cities our size has an Olympic sized pool right in center. Rockwood park with the lakes and trails is beautiful. This city has a lot to offer.

I agree. Saint John is a very beautiful city.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Allow me to objectify this for you:
- Numerous forms of public transit
- Walkable distances between residential clusters and sources of jobs (often established via mixed-use residential/commercial urban developments)
- Downtown malls
- Parks
- Versatile market of townhouses, condos, apartments, and single-family dwellings inside the city core
- Museums, theatres, and other forms of downtown entertainment
- Schools, hospitals, and other forms of downtown public services
- Diversity of industries and available jobs
- etc...

If you live in Saint John, you most likely require a vehicle in order to function within the municipality. In 'major' urban centres car ownership is not required because of the established density and public transit.

A '"signature cityscape" is more deserving of your 'subjective' claim, because skylines do not effectively draw people to a city: Jobs do; convenient and stable quality of life does; excitement does.

I'm not trying to convey that Saint John is the poorest of the three cities. That's beside the point. None of NB's cities are working their way toward being revenue neutral.

Yes, there are some high-paying jobs in the Saint John area, but the quantity is obviously not enough to bring down your unemployment rate, nor is it enough to pay for the area's sprawled framework.

New Brunswick's population is quickly aging because its youth is moving elsewhere.

Of the things you listed, which ones are you suggesting Saint John lacks? How well do you actually know the city???

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Allow me to objectify this for you:
- Numerous forms of public transit
- Walkable distances between residential clusters and sources of jobs (often established via mixed-use residential/commercial urban developments)
- Downtown malls
- Parks
- Versatile market of townhouses, condos, apartments, and single-family dwellings inside the city core
- Museums, theatres, and other forms of downtown entertainment
- Schools, hospitals, and other forms of downtown public services
- Diversity of industries and available jobs
- etc...

If you live in Saint John, you most likely require a vehicle in order to function within the municipality. In 'major' urban centres car ownership is not required because of the established density and public transit..

This is just not the case - you do not require a car to function here.
- there are numerous forms of transportation, including bike lanes, community carpool program "share your ride", "Parcobus" lot to share your ride, Harbour Passage connecting uptown, north end and west side and an excellent bus system IMO. Even the furthest reaches of the city have a 40' bus running to them, including Red Head, Martinon and Loch Lomand. We even have ComEx bus service to Grand Bay-Westfield, Kennececasis Valley and Hampton. The last two are so popular they run large accordion buses. Some runs go to east side shopping district serving retail workers from KV and there is seamless transfer to regional hospital and university. Saint John is the leader in NB when it comes to public transportation. Just look at the park and ride lots. Plus commuting workers have WiFi
- as for walkable distances to work - every single employment cluster has a residential neighborhood nearby should people choose to work and live nearby. In fact ALL of the dense areas of Saint John are mixed use residential and employers. Drury Cove is the first in NB I believe that is a high end residential / office park.
- Saint John has 3 downtown malls - Brunswick, Market and Prince Edward Squares.
- as for versatile housing in core you can check all the boxes on your list
- as for Parks and green spaces the city has a lot. Within the core itself is Rockwood Park, Public Gardens, Kings and Queens Sq, Loyalist burial ground, Rainbow park for kids, Fort Howe, Saint Andrew's Green, York Point, Garden Street Park, Chowen Field, Three Sisters Green, Barrack Green Field, Tin Can Beach, Fort Latour
- NB Museum is located right uptown on waterfront and across Harbour passage on Douglas ave. imperial theatre on Kings Sq is billed as the most beautiful in Canada by the arts community. Half a block away is the Saint John theatre company in a newly renovated historic property. Saint John uptown has great nightlife, culture and art galleries plus top notch restaurants in renovated historic buildings.
- city core has St Joseph's hospital, medical clinics, teen sexual health / resource centre, 2 of the major high schools and UNBSJ buildings. Provincial, federal and local services all available in core. The library is located uptown also, with branches east and west.
- as for diversity of jobs, we are actually very diverse. We are actually a white-collar city by number of jobs considered blue/white. Saint John became diverse with the IT sector and health sciences sector to name just a couple. Saint John is well positioned for growth due to the availability of cheap industrial energy, rail connections, ice free port and available tradespeople and engineers.

As for signature city scape, I did not say "skyline". And yes city scape does bring people to city. Just ask owner of Urban deli - she moved from Fredericton to open it when she saw cityscape. Same with new owner of Gothic Arches from Toronto and the owner of the wedding cake building who moved from Montreal to SJ when he discovered it. A CEO on a cruise was taken by the cityscape he opened a business here. I can think of three couples that visited city and fell in love with it and moved here. ( I live in historical area )

I went 7 years without a car and never gave it a second thought. Having said all that, I politely say you do not know Saint John. Would love to take you on a tour!! This is a good starting point:
http://youtu.be/UC7irNxxs5I