Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[JM1]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

If nothing else, a smoother ride. Anyone else besides me notice how BAD OC Transpo drivers are getting at operating the velocitators and the deceleratrices?

I have to agree. I hate taking OC Transpo buses because they make me sick. They are full of fumes and they stop, start and jerk to the sides as they make their way through town.

Part of it is Ottawa roads, part of it is bad drivers, and part of it is stupid bus routes and too many stops. They need to lengthen the distance between stops to increase the efficiency of the system. Walk further people.

They also need to avoid buses going off of major roads and making little loops and detours through neighbourhoods.

I think people would take the bus more if it were smoother rides and more frequent service. I don't think people would mind walking an extra two blocks to a bus stop if it meant better main route service.

I know, I know. What about the old and handicapped... Well use some of the efficiencies to improve Paratranspo.

[Harley613]

Rapid transit is a magnet for development. On the East-West line being constructed there are a few stations that are currently low to no density. Bayview and Lebreton are in the middle of fields for now, Cyrville is not very developed, and Blair and Hurdman are nexuses for other lines in the system without much other purpose. This will all change in the next ten years because of the new line.

A bank st. line in thirty years could create high density pockets at Billings, Walkley, Heron, Greenborough and Hunt Club. I think Bank is a logical place to put rapid transit because it's a logical place to put density. It's the Yonge st. of Ottawa. I don't foresee forty story towers in the glebe, but I can imagine them to the north and south.

[JM1]

Originally Posted by agl

I think this is the most important point when discussing a potential Bank street line; there is just not enough density to justify such a monumental cost of tunneling under Bank Street when current and future planning for the area seems to indicate the required density in the Glebe would never be realized (ie. it is not, nor will it ever be, Yonge Street). Also, there are two rapid transit lines on either side of Bank Street, one of which, the O-Train line, is getting some of the required intensification along its corridor to justify further upgrades to the line in the future.

Certainly some type of link to Lansdowne would be desirable, but as Kitchissippi points out, Lansdowne is really the only destination point on Bank Street, other than downtown. What is needed is to ensure is a smooth transfer from O-Train to Confederation Line west of downtown, and BRT along the Southeast Transitway to Confederation Line at Hurdman east of downtown.

LRT conversion of the Southeast Transitway would be ideal, with northbound trains from Riverside South/airport splitting after South keys via Hurdman or O-Train line at a ratio that meets each line's demand and balances the entry into the downtown tunnel from either end.

Yonge Street in Toronto wasn't dense in the 1950's when they built a subway under it (at least not North of Bloor). But now it has major pockets of density at Eglinton, Lawrence, and Sheppard.

What is more, density is increasing along bank. Look at the developments near Catherine and those at Landsdowne.

[Aylmer]

For Landsdowne, how about that plan someone proposed in the 'What to do with Bronson' thread: A Carling tram which would run beside the Canal from Bronson towards Downtown?

For argument's sake, let's say that the NCC doesn't exist. The capital cost would be much lower, it would provide good access to the Glebe, excellent access to Landsdowne and, of course, Carling.

It could leave go from Sparks (surface) or tunnel down to join up with the Downtown tunnel, follow Queen Elizabeth dr. to Carling, then run in the median.

[J.OT13]

Platforms

If anyone remembers the reports in May 2011, it stated that the two CBD stations would have 5.5 m side platforms and Rideau would get a 10 m centre platform. So in the end, it would come to about the same price (narrower right of way with centre platform, but trains have to deviate to go in and out of the station). I would like to know the exact width of the platforms in this final design, but I still haven't found anything indicating it. It looks tight, but still similar (in width of side platforms in older stations) to Vancouver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Granville-stn-withpeople.jpg) and Toronto (http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2011/10/ttc-reaches-out-riders-service-cuts-loom).

Still seems to narrow.


S/E Transitway

I haven't traveled the S/E very often, but I don't think it will ever need conversion; we are talking about a fully grade separated BRT line were we can run articulated buses back and forth (for a capacity of up to 10,000 phpd) between rapid transit transfer stations (Greenboro and Hurdman, one day Walkley/South Keys and possibly Billings to the Bank Subway).


Bank Street Subway

Yes, the Glebe will likely reach its peak only after Lansdowne opens, which is why I only recommend a Lansdowne station in the Glebe. It also partly solve a NIMBY problem (we could possibly put one in the plans and use it as a negotiation tool). But all along the line on Bank street, we find many places with huge development potential; Billings Bridge, Catherine Street, Centertown.

I would not cross the trains to Gatineau; let them have their buses for a few decades, then they can convert and have the trains go to the Laurier federal complexes, across the Interprovincial, thru the market and transfer people at Rideau. This route might work as an above ground LRT or mostly underground. But for now, forget Gatineau and keep in mind that I am not saying that because I don't have any attachments to Gatineau; I grew up there and I have a lot of friends and family on that side of the river.

As for the stations (large scale development potential indicated with "(D)) of the Bank Subway;

-Billings (D)
-Old Ottawa South
-Lansdowne (D)
-Catherine (D)
-Somerset
-Queen (forming an "L" shaped concourse with the SunLife station (D)
-Rideau (D)
-King Eds (D)
-Charlotte
-Eastview Plaza (D)
-Marier
-St-Laurent (D)
-Montfort

split to

-CFB Rockliffe (D)

and

-La Cité Collegiale
-Ogilvie

[J.OT13]

Trams won't work anymore for Lansdowne then bus lanes. We are talking about a place that will see at least one thousand people heading in and out of on a daily basis and at least 150 events during the year attracting 10,000 (67's) to 24,000 (CFL, Soccer) people. We could even see bigger events of 40,000 +, such as FIFA soccer, the Grey Cup, NHL classic, concerts...

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Trams won't work anymore for Lansdowne then bus lanes. We are talking about a place that will see at least one thousand people heading in and out of on a daily basis and at least 150 events during the year attracting 10,000 (67's) to 24,000 (CFL, Soccer) people. We could even see bigger events of 40,000 +, such as FIFA soccer, the Grey Cup, NHL classic, concerts...

Agreed. Bank is too narrow for RoW (and even then, the great number of intersecting streets would slow it down greatly). I also understand it when people say that a subway wouldn't be worth it - There's very little development potential outside of Landsdowne and Catherine and Glebites would just flip.
I like my idea of a RoW tram (or lrt or whatever you want to call it) along the west side of the Canal (either beside or replacing Queen Elizabeth Drive) since it could accommodate the Landsdowne crowds at a much smaller cost and it would be expandable along Carling, potentially providing a relief line to the eventual E-W LRT.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Trams won't work anymore for Lansdowne then bus lanes. We are talking about a place that will see at least one thousand people heading in and out of on a daily basis and at least 150 events during the year attracting 10,000 (67's) to 24,000 (CFL, Soccer) people. We could even see bigger events of 40,000 +, such as FIFA soccer, the Grey Cup, NHL classic, concerts...

?????
67s play 34 regular home games a year
CFL teams play 9 regular season home games.
NASL play 15 home games
Obviously there are playoffs and one-off things, but 15% usage hardly seems to justify the cost of mass transit.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by acottawa

?????
67s play 34 regular home games a year
CFL teams play 9 regular season home games.
NASL play 15 home games
Obviously there are playoffs and one-off things, but 15% usage hardly seems to justify the cost of mass transit.

Throw in conventions, concerts, special events... 150 event days is a realistic number. That's over 40% of the calendar year.

[eternallyme]

As for what to do with buses with the LRT, here is what I recommend:

Local routes in inner city, as well as terminating at a new LRT station already: No change.

Orleans express routes and local routes: Combine into a single set of routes. All routes would end at Blair Station for a one-transfer trip downtown. Most routes should go through Place d'Orleans to ensure that the service is similar to the current 95 service. The 95 would only operate at selected time periods to either replace trains to downtown (from about 12:30 am to start of regular service) or operate the Park and Ride service to Trim (weekdays only).

Southeast local routes (those ending at between Hurdman and Greenboro): Most routes would continue to Hurdman at all time periods in one way or another unless they meet other downtown connections elsewhere. Transitway service would start at Hurdman except during the overnight (from about 12:30 am to start of regular service).

Transitway and express routes to the west and southwest: It gets a bit complicated here. Due to the long distance and forced additional transfer, at this stage I recommend that trips on those routes be split as follows:

* During peak periods:
**About 50% of trips should continue to Mackenzie King serving downtown in the morning and start there in the afternoon.
**About 40% of trips should end at Tunney's Pasture, with a transfer to the LRT. On less busy express routes, all would end here.
**About 10% of trips should continue to LeBreton then on to Gatineau. Those should be heavily concentrated on routes that serve Park and Rides and Transitway routes with a few other trips on the busiest express routes.

*During off-peak periods on Transitway routes:
**Most trips would continue downtown, ensuring a trip to Kanata and Barrhaven every 15 to 20 minutes. Additional supplemental trips would end at Tunney's Pasture.

*Once the LRT is extended farther west, the same pattern as with Orleans would apply with Kanata and Barrhaven routes.

West local routes (those ending at between Westboro and Baseline or Bayshore): No change.

Kanata and Barrhaven local routes: No changes at this stage. In Phase 2, they would be combined with the expresses like with Orleans routes.

The following routes currently both join and leave the Transitway where it will be lost, and would have to be split or restructured to fill the gap (not just shortened): 8, 86, 87, 94, 95, 97, 101, 102 and 199.

[eemy]

Very strongly disagree that express and transitway routes should continue to Mackenzie King. How is a transfer at Tunney's Pasture any different then a transfer at Blair?

It's probably way too late for this, but what is the justification for keeping a station at Cyrville Road? I wonder if it wouldn't be more effective to reroute the eastern leg of the 94 down Cyrville Road and have it terminate at St. Laurent instead. I would wager this would actually be better than the current situation for most businesses along Cyrville Rd. Without significantly altering the service for existing users of the 94.

[Aylmer]

Agreed. One of the main point of this whole exercise is to reduce (eliminate) the express buses downtown. I'll admit that transferring at Tunneys must feel like changing shoes 100m before the end of a 100km trip, but alas.

It'll seem much better once the Transitway is converted up to Queensway or Bayshore.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I agree that there would be a lot of ruffling of feathers, but there's no reason why it couldn't be nice. It could be slim, modern, tasteful... we're not talking about the MacDonald Cartier bridge, here!

If we're gonna build more bridges, put them over the canal and Rideau River.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by JM1

I have to agree. I hate taking OC Transpo buses because they make me sick. They are full of fumes and they stop, start and jerk to the sides as they make their way through town.

Part of it is Ottawa roads, part of it is bad drivers, and part of it is stupid bus routes and too many stops. They need to lengthen the distance between stops to increase the efficiency of the system. Walk further people.

The frequency of the stops is not a problem. It's the jerk (literally) drivers who have crap training. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEEEZE. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEEEEZE. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEZE PUMP PUMP PUMP STOMP.

They also need to avoid buses going off of major roads and making little loops and detours through neighbourhoods.

That, too, though it's not as bad as it once was.

I know, I know. What about the old and handicapped... Well use some of the efficiencies to improve Paratranspo.

The old and handicapped are one of the main reasons to improve the quality of the driving. Some of the jerks behind the wheel make it dangerous to be standing, and often even sitting, on an OC Transpo bus.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Rapid transit is a magnet for development. On the East-West line being constructed there are a few stations that are currently low to no density. Bayview and Lebreton are in the middle of fields for now, Cyrville is not very developed, and Blair and Hurdman are nexuses for other lines in the system without much other purpose. This will all change in the next ten years because of the new line.

Only if the city (A) allows it, and (B) demands better when developers propose crappy, non-transit-oriented, low-density, ample-parking, ass-to-the-transit-system projects, which, inevitibly, this being Ottawa, they will.

The city has to stop giving byes to crappy development for development's sake, and stop throwing obstacles in the way of good urban - not suburban - urban planning.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I like my idea of a RoW tram (or lrt or whatever you want to call it) along the west side of the Canal (either beside or replacing Queen Elizabeth Drive) since it could accommodate the Landsdowne crowds at a much smaller cost and it would be expandable along Carling, potentially providing a relief line to the eventual E-W LRT.

Crush loads at Landsdowne could be accomodated by improving service on Bank, and using the Driveway.

The first part means OC Transpo needs to consult the damn schedule of damn events at damn Landsdowne and adjust its damn schedule accordingly - more buses, articulated ones, on event days/nights; and buses, articulated ones, on standby after major evening events. OC Transpo has a crap record of doing this at the old Landsdowne; I attended many concerts and other events there that afterwards were served by the same old evening schedule of 1s and 7s, running on 40 foot machines.

The second part means that the NCC have to stop being anti-urban, anti-everything, pretty-ism, think-of-the-national-interest douchebags. The simplest way of achieving this is to abolish the NCC.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The frequency of the stops is not a problem. It's the jerk (literally) drivers who have crap training. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEEEZE. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEEEEZE. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. STOMP. SQUEEEZE PUMP PUMP PUMP STOMP.



That, too, though it's not as bad as it once was.



The old and handicapped are one of the main reasons to improve the quality of the driving. Some of the jerks behind the wheel make it dangerous to be standing, and often even sitting, on an OC Transpo bus.

I find it happens by far the most on the 5000s (hybrid buses) as they seem to shake the most when riding.

[eemy]

My proposed route changes:

2: eliminate diversion off Richmond to Westboro Stn in favour of one to Tunney's Pasture, turning up Holland and then return down Parkdale. Direct connection to LRT.

5: continue up Elgin to Wellington, then return to Laurier via Nicholas/Waller. Better connection to LRT at Rideau.

8: from Hurdman, head up the Vanier Pkwy to Rideau St. Take Elgin to Albert/Slater. Eliminate Transitway travel. Improved service to Vanier/Rideau.

16: left on Elgin to Wellington, then return to Laurier via Nicholas/Waller. Better connection to LRT at Rideau

20-38: terminate at Blair.

40-43: terminate at Hurdman.

60-77: terminate at Tunney's Pasture.

85: connect to Wellington via Booth, end at Rideau. Connect to LRT on either end of downtown, new local service along Wellington.

86-87: split into two routes, terminating at Hurdman and Tunney's Pasture.

93: terminate all service at Tunney's Pasture.

94: split into two routes, first terminating at Tunney's Pasture, second continuing down Innis Rd. to Cyrville, terminating at St. Laurent. Improved service to Cyrville Rd. businesses.

95: split into two routes, terminating at Tunney's Pasture and Blair.

96: terminate at Tunney's Pasture.

97: split into two routes, terminating at Tunney's Pasture and Hurdman.

98: terminate at Hurdman.

99: terminate all service at Hurdman.

101-102: terminate at Hurdman via Riverside Dr. Maintain connections to E and SE.

105: move Transitway service to Albert/Scott St.

114: terminate at St. Laurent.

124-126: terminate at Blair.

127: connect to St. Laurent via St. Laurent. No longer possible to connect via Michael due to LRT.

128-129: terminate at Blair.

176: terminate at Tunney's Pasture.

192: terminate at St. Laurent.

199: terminate at Hurdman.

New route: link from Rideau Stn, to Gatineau using Portage Bridge replacing eliminated service on 27 and 40.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I find it happens by far the most on the 5000s (hybrid buses) as they seem to shake the most when riding.

I must be the right contrarian anus, but I find the hybrids are smoother, at least in so far as driver behaviour is concerned.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

My proposed route changes:

2: eliminate diversion off Richmond to Westboro Stn in favour of one to Tunney's Pasture, turning up Holland and then return down Parkdale. Direct connection to LRT.

No. As annoying as the Westboro diversion is, it's very useful for getting to the Richmond/Wellington strip from the west via eastbound transitway routes (and vice-versa). Unless and until they can come up with a better interface between the 2 and Lincoln Fields station, keep Westboro. Maybe even keep Westboro then.

5: continue up Elgin to Wellington, then return to Laurier via Nicholas/Waller. Better connection to LRT at Rideau.

You mean... return it to its former routing, just like most of its regular passengers want, anyway?

16: left on Elgin to Wellington, then return to Laurier via Nicholas/Waller. Better connection to LRT at Rideau

Vide 5, supra.