Halifax Stadium Discussion

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

Everyone against a top notch stadium in HRM that I hear rant and rave seems to say to the effect of " why build a lavish stadium , we don't need that ..... it'll just be another white elephant " blah blah blah !

You now what will be a bigger "white elephant" a 40M$ stadium with no anchor tenant, under used and not or rarely bringing any extra busines to the suroundind restaurants, bars , and stores .... and brings a little civic pride which is unmesureable in $ value !

I would rather see a 120-150M$ spent on something that does all of the above !!!!

Absolutely!

The stadium has to be "good enough" to potentially attract a CFL team. And it should be big enough for concerts etc. A small, cheap stadium will be a waste IMHO. Better to just hold on to the money (ya right ) till there is enough to do it right.

I suppose a lower cost option would be to build it in phases. As long as the infrastructure was installed for a premium, larger stadium, the seats and other amenities could be added as budget allowed.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think two arguments are being combined into one. Opposition to a small 10 - 14K stadium that is not suitable for much of anything is one argument, that most people seem to agree with.

The other argument is whether people should hope for a $120 - $150 million dollar stadium that will probably not be built anytime in the near future or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium that might be possible. If funding for a $40 million dollar stadium wasn't obtainable then how do people jump to the conclusion that a much more expensive stadium is doable?

In reality this stadium discussion is just a discussion so whether people argue for a 25,000 seat expensive stadium or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium is somewhat of a moot point.

I think the relevant point is that more people would support a 25,000 seat stadium than a 10,000 seat stadium, regardless of the cost. If a 25,000 seater could be built for ~$50M, then I think that would be the easiest sell, but if it comes down to a decision between a $40M stadium that seats 10,000 and wouldn't get much use or a 25,000+ seater that costs ~$100M but could host things that we currently can't host and as a result, recoup a large portion of its construction/operating costs, it would be a lot easier to get support for the more expensive but more useful option. I think most people agree that a $40M stadium that can't really be used for anything new is a waste of $40M.

[resetcbu1]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think two arguments are being combined into one. Opposition to a small 10 - 14K stadium that is not suitable for much of anything is one argument, that most people seem to agree with.

The other argument is whether people should hope for a $120 - $150 million dollar stadium that will probably not be built anytime in the near future or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium that might be possible. If funding for a $40 million dollar stadium wasn't obtainable then how do people jump to the conclusion that a much more expensive stadium is doable?

In reality this stadium discussion is just a discussion so whether people argue for a 25,000 seat expensive stadium or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium is somewhat of a moot point.

I agree that if a suitable stadium can be built at a reasonable cost that is the best way to go , I would just hate to see a stadium built fo X amount of $'s never get proper use.... I feel that no matter the cost it will have to be up to snuff with the standards required to attract a major tenant..... If that means spending more money I'm Ok with that , just my opinion.

but as you mentioned all this is is discussion and holds no real merit other than opinion.

[wespidel]

At the previous stadium HRM public meetings the majority of the public were totally against the steering committee's stadium model and for these important reasons: Too small, no amenities, poorly designed, etc. I actually talked to the architect and he gave me the real facts which were, it was only 10 to 14 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines and not expandable, only in the endzones but only to a total of 25 to 27 thousand seats. And only with one concourse with permanent concession stands and washrooms on one side of the stadium. And with absolutely no important amenities like skyboxes, VIP lounges, etc.This is the exact stadium model that the new Mayor and the new council still wants to build. This will be a total disaster and an embarrassment to our capital city, and all we can hope is that it is not built. Mr. Cohon the commissioner of CFL, made it clear at the 100th Grey Cup that if Halifax or Quebec city wants to become the 10th CFL franchise, they need to build a ready made CFL model 150 to 200 million dollar stadium with all the latest and most modern amenities, and expandable to minimum of 45 thousand to host a Grey Cup. Every stadium in the CFL will have to be able to host a Grey Cup and this is the only way you will ever attract a potential CFL owner. Opinions can be fact and in this case, opinion is fact.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by wespidel

At the previous stadium HRM public meetings the majority of the public were totally against the steering committee's stadium model and for these important reasons: Too small, no amenities, poorly designed, etc. I actually talked to the architect and he gave me the real facts which were, it was only 10 to 14 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines and not expandable, only in the endzones but only to a total of 25 to 27 thousand seats. And only with one concourse with permanent concession stands and washrooms on one side of the stadium. And with absolutely no important amenities like skyboxes, VIP lounges, etc.This is the exact stadium model that the new Mayor and the new council still wants to build. This will be a total disaster and an embarrassment to our capital city, and all we can hope is that it is not built. Mr. Cohon the commissioner of CFL, made it clear at the 100th Grey Cup that if Halifax or Quebec city wants to become the 10th CFL franchise, they need to build a ready made CFL model 150 to 200 million dollar stadium with all the latest and most modern amenities, and expandable to minimum of 45 thousand to host a Grey Cup. Every stadium in the CFL will have to be able to host a Grey Cup and this is the only way you will ever attract a potential CFL owner. Opinions can be fact and in this case, opinion is fact.

Well said.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by wespidel

At the previous stadium HRM public meetings the majority of the public were totally against the steering committee's stadium model and for these important reasons: Too small, no amenities, poorly designed, etc. I actually talked to the architect and he gave me the real facts which were, it was only 10 to 14 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines and not expandable, only in the endzones but only to a total of 25 to 27 thousand seats. And only with one concourse with permanent concession stands and washrooms on one side of the stadium. And with absolutely no important amenities like skyboxes, VIP lounges, etc.This is the exact stadium model that the new Mayor and the new council still wants to build. This will be a total disaster and an embarrassment to our capital city, and all we can hope is that it is not built. Mr. Cohon the commissioner of CFL, made it clear at the 100th Grey Cup that if Halifax or Quebec city wants to become the 10th CFL franchise, they need to build a ready made CFL model 150 to 200 million dollar stadium with all the latest and most modern amenities, and expandable to minimum of 45 thousand to host a Grey Cup. Every stadium in the CFL will have to be able to host a Grey Cup and this is the only way you will ever attract a potential CFL owner. Opinions can be fact and in this case, opinion is fact.

Agreed - if we're going to build something, lets build it right. The public seem to want a CFL franchise and if we're going to sink money into a stadium lets make sure it can be used for more than just CFL. A decent sized one around 40,000 which can expand to meet the Grey Cup requirements would be great venue to attract more concerts to the area. If there was an interest, soccer games could happen there and in the winter time it could be an giant outdoor rink for the public? There is so much potential here that people just have to think about it and see it for what it could be...

[someone123]

I'm not even sure why they'd be interested in building the 14,000 seat stadium if it can't be expanded to CFL size. What's the point? The Metro Centre has roughly the same capacity and a Metro Centre replacement might one day have a greater capacity.

This all sounds like a case of confusion and poor planning to me. It all mostly started with CFL aspirations and now it's gotten twisted.

I don't think it's prudent right now to spend $200M on a CFL-calibre stadium when the city has no team. A good happy medium seems to be a ~20,000-25,000 bare bones stadium designed with expandability in mind. Such a stadium would be immediately useful (more seats than Metro Centre) and if a CFL team were to come around today it wouldn't require a massive investment or rebuild to get it up to league standards, so the city would be well ahead of where it is now.

[halifaxboyns]

Wasn't the commonwealth stadium proposal in the 20-25k range? With expansion plans for bigger?

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not even sure why they'd be interested in building the 14,000 seat stadium if it can't be expanded to CFL size. What's the point? The Metro Centre has roughly the same capacity and a Metro Centre replacement might one day have a greater capacity.

This all sounds like a case of confusion and poor planning to me. It all mostly started with CFL aspirations and now it's gotten twisted.

I don't think it's prudent right now to spend $200M on a CFL-calibre stadium when the city has no team. A good happy medium seems to be a ~20,000-25,000 bare bones stadium designed with expandability in mind. Such a stadium would be immediately useful (more seats than Metro Centre) and if a CFL team were to come around today it wouldn't require a massive investment or rebuild to get it up to league standards, so the city would be well ahead of where it is now.

IF you don't build it right from the start and build it the right size, it will never attract a potential CFL owner. I can guarantee you if Quebec builds a new stadium it will be a ready made CFL model stadium, and it will be expandable to 45 or 50 thousand to hold a Grey Cup, which each CFL owner has to have in order to be viable. A bare boned inadequate facility like HRM are supposing and you are suggesting, for a city the size of Halifax will be a total embarrassment and a complete eyesore and will sit empty, and be a huge waste of 60 or 70 million dollars. Case and point even with Winnipeg's rich owner, Winnipeg would have never landed a NHL team again, if they would have not had the proper facility in place. No potential CFL owner would ever be interested in a CFL team in Halifax unless there is a modern CFL model stadium in place and capable of staging a Grey Cup game. Ottawa and Hamilton's new CFL model stadium can do both and will cost 150 million, and they are at the bottom of the spectrum, but are both approved CFL models. Winnipeg's new CFL model stadium is bigger and nicer, and cost 198 million. Regina which is half the size of Halifax, is building a 278 million dollar state of the art, new CFL model stadium. Don't forget that HRM and Dexter's govt., didn't have a problem putting in 115 million plus for a new convention centre which is not near as popular as a stadium project, which in reality should be a much bigger project than a convention centre. So in that case a 150 million dollar CFL model should not be a problem, and if they really want to do it right Halifax should seriously be looking to build the Winnipeg's CFL model, which is pretty impressive! Now were talking! I believe the new Mayor and council should start to educate themselves on these new CFL model stadiums being built and really do their homework and maybe then they will realize that if can't build it right, they should not build a stadium, period, until they can build it right!

[wespidel]

Should have read,...... Sorry, but this would never happen in today's sports world!

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Wasn't the commonwealth stadium proposal in the 20-25k range? With expansion plans for bigger?

I believe the plan at one point was for 50,000 seats.

[Hali87]

Don't forget that HRM and Dexter's govt., didn't have a problem putting in 115 million plus for a new convention centre which is not near as popular as a stadium project, which in reality should be a much bigger project than a convention centre. So in that case a 150 million dollar CFL model should not be a problem, and if they really want to do it right Halifax should seriously be looking to build the Winnipeg's CFL model, which is pretty impressive!

You've stated this a few times now, but I'm not convinced that it's true. The Nova Centre is being embraced by what appears to be a majority of the population (or at least there aren't many naysayers anymore). There is lukewarm support for a stadium but I'd hesitate to even call it a "popular" idea. Many people may support it in principle but I don't think that many people are very enthusiastic. This could obviously change if there is a better proposal but as it stands I don't think it's accurate to continue to state that Nova Scotians want a CFL stadium much more than a new convention centre (which is more of a need than a want anyway).

A bare boned inadequate facility like HRM are supposing and you are suggesting, for a city the size of Halifax will be a total embarrassment and a complete eyesore and will sit empty, and be a huge waste of 60 or 70 million dollars. Case and point even with Winnipeg's rich owner, Winnipeg would have never landed a NHL team again, if they would have not had the proper facility in place. No potential CFL owner would ever be interested in a CFL team in Halifax unless there is a modern CFL model stadium in place and capable of staging a Grey Cup game.

Again, I'm not too sure... The CFL has expressed their desire to expand to Halifax for decades now, and I'm sure that if they were going to make an exception to their standards (or should I say another exception) then Halifax would be it. I don't think we should necessarily aim lower than what they'd want, but I also don't think that if our stadium is missing 1 or 2 things on their list that they'd tell us to build a new one or forget about a team. Can every team in the league now host a Grey Cup? Is every team playing their regular season games in a 25,000+ seat stadium?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

I believe the plan at one point was for 50,000 seats.

I don't remember the exact plan but the budget was $150M or so, back around 2005, so it's exactly in the range being mentioned for the CFL today.

A $150M stadium isn't really that far-fetched, but I'm not sure I agree with wespidel that everything has to be built in one stage as soon as possible. I think it's fine to build an expandable stadium, particularly when there isn't enough funding available at one given point in time.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Don't forget that HRM and Dexter's govt., didn't have a problem putting in 115 million plus for a new convention centre which is not near as popular as a stadium project, which in reality should be a much bigger project than a convention centre.

They didn't have a problem since they haven't thrown in 115 million dollars. It is a yearly lease which starts once the convention centre is complete and runs for 25 years. Only the federal government is paying their portion as a lump sum once the convention centre is complete.

Most people are in favour of the convention centre. My biggest concern is that it might not be big enough.

[teddifax]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

They didn't have a problem since they haven't thrown in 115 million dollars. It is a yearly lease which starts once the convention centre is complete and runs for 25 years. Only the federal government is paying their portion as a lump sum once the convention centre is complete.

Most people are in favour of the convention centre. My biggest concern is that it might not be big enough.

That brings up something I have been meaning to ask. Is there a possibility with the design of the Nova Ctr to be able to expand within the confines of the building, taking other space within the complex if needed for future expansion?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by teddifax

That brings up something I have been meaning to ask. Is there a possibility with the design of the Nova Ctr to be able to expand within the confines of the building, taking other space within the complex if needed for future expansion?

This was one intention of the original design. I am not sure if they still have incorporated future expansion into the design. It is an interesting question, which maybe someone can submit at this link - http://buildyourcentre.ca/faq/. EDITED: I just noticed that you had already thought of this in the Nova Centre thread.

[teddifax]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This was one intention of the original design. I am not sure if they still have incorporated future expansion into the design. It is an interesting question, which maybe someone can submit at this link - http://buildyourcentre.ca/faq/. EDITED: I just noticed that you had already thought of this in the Nova Centre thread.

I also sent an email to the Nova Centre webpage as well. I hope they make contingency plans for future expansion.

[halifaxboyns]

I wonder if support for the stadium is lacking simply because it's had so many stops and starts? Think about it: We had the possibility years ago, then it fizzled. Then we had commonwealth games, that died. Then there was talk last year, fizzled. It came up a bit in the election but it's fizzled off again.

Where as with Nova Centre, the $ controversy was the key media issue because mainly the STV crowd kept it out there (as did the media). But then when the money decisions were made, Ramia took the bull by the horns and did his engagement and essentially controlled the media story through his engagement staff (while there was some negative comments in the media, the positive and pro-comments far outweighed it).

[wespidel]

Mr. Cohon, said that Moncton would have to spend over 100 million to bring their current university football size stadium up to CFL standards. But if that was to happen Moncton has a huge problem with their current facility. One it cannot be expanded on the smaller side which is the only side that has permanent concession stands and washrooms, which is very tight in size, as well are the grand stands that only go up 16 rows and may hold 4,000 people. And these small amount of seats are all between the goal goals. The other side holds more people but does not have a concourse or permanent concession stands and washrooms. It is constructed almost like a make shift stadium with steel tubing, that has metal risers but no concrete. It is not well constructed! Moncton were able to get over a million dollars from the NB govt., and the Feds to stage a regulär season game back to back, but this time around it would be a tougher sell. Mr. Cohon said it is very costly because of the lack of permanent seats and the huge cost of setting up and tearing down over 10 thousand temporary bench seats, because the real true capacity of Moncton stadium is only 8,500 seats and not 10,000. Mr. Cohon also said there is a lot less sponsor money. Mr. Cohon also said that the Moncton games were not money makers. Although he did say they may be a chance they would go back to Moncton for one game in 2013 because the Tiger-Cats are out of their stadium in 2013 while their new CFL model stadium is being built. But the reality is that it will be probably the last time because CFL owners are not going to give up their home games because they and their fans, and the CFL have too much to lose financially and a lot more to gain by playing their home games in their own CFL home cities, which only makes economic sense. Moncton's expansion design also would not appeal to a potential CFL owner because it can only be expanded to a total of only 27,000, with more than half of the seats in the endzones, which are not desirable seats to sell. More than half of the seats for Touchdown Atlantic were also in the endzones on temporary benches, which were not good seats and received a lot of complaints. So if Halifax continues to plan to build the same type of bare boned under sized, poorly designed university type football stadium, it will also face all the same problems that the Moncton stadium is facing. Moncton and Halifax should know that these types of stadiums are ok for university sports but that is it. They will never, ever attract a CFL potential owner nor a major naming right partner who needs a pro sports team as a major anchor tenant. It obvious the stadium has to be a ready made CFL model, expandable to 45 or 50 thousand to host a Grey Cup and with all the latest amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable. And those are the real facts. Lets not kid ourselves or be dreamers here! Moncton's stadium is a pretty nice university stadium, but that is it, no more or less. The question Halifax has to ask themselves, being 4 times larger than Moncton, does Halifax want to do the same or build a slightly larger facility with only 14 thousand permanent seats, but bare boned, and also very poorly designed with the same type of problems. Only having 14 thousand permanent seats between the goals lines, and only expandable as well in the endzones to only 25 or 27,000 total seats, and with no amenities. Sounds like a carbon copy and is very similar to Moncton's stadium. And that is all it will ever be!

[wespidel]

This is why it is so important to build a CFL ready made stadium. I don't want to keep repeating myself here, or be accused of running Moncton's stadium down which I believe people in Moncton are proud of. But letzten out things in perspective here. You cannot compare Moncton's stadium model to Hamilton's, Ottawa's, Winnipeg's, and Regina's new CFL model stadiums, which all qualify to host a Grey Cup game. Why, because all the owners need to be able to stage a Grey Cup game to help their bottom line. The CFL also wants this as well, which makes all CFL more profitable. Last year in BC at the 99th Grey Cup the owner made 5.6 million in profit. This year at the 100th Grey Cup the same owner who owns the BC Lions and the Argos, made 12.2 million dollars in profit. Even in the smaller CFL markets the owners will make over 3 million dollars in profit. That is why CFL model stadiums need to be able to stage a Grey Cup. And every CFL city wants a Grey Cup as well because they take in 100 million in economic spin-offs. The 100th Grey Cup took in 150 million for the city of Toronto. The CFL also makes their share of profit during a Grey Cup. This is why if any major city like Halifax or Quebec wants to attract a new CFL potential owner it needs to be a ready made CFL model that also is able to stage a Grey Cup, and that is why it has to be at least 25 to 30 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines, expandable to 45 or 50 thousand and with all the most modern amenities, which the new CFL stadiums must have. That is also why 150 million is at the bottom end and 300 million is at the top end which meets the CFL current standards, because it also needs to be a state of the art facility to host a Grey Cup.