Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Dado]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Anyway, for 6 years, I have been trying to convince myself (and other people) that this was a metro system using Light Rail technology. Now I see that it's nothing more than a light rail system.

Siome of us here (myself included) had figured that what was being designed was a "light metro" (roughly like Vancouver) in all but name since the entire line and all future extensions of the main east-west line are slated (at this time) to be grade-separated.

In many respects, with the enormous outlay for complete grade separation, the fact it won't use light metro vehicles is rather curious.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Dado

Siome of us here (myself included) had figured that what was being designed was a "light metro" (roughly like Vancouver) in all but name since the entire line and all future extensions of the main east-west line are slated (at this time) to be grade-separated.

In many respects, with the enormous outlay for complete grade separation, the fact it won't use light metro vehicles is rather curious.

I dunno. I think that the fact that it's a tram in a metro's clothing makes it more easily expandable. You could do corridors such as Carling without having to go grade-separated, Byron or the Ottawa River Parkway without freaking out the neighbours and even have a surface relief line if and when necessary. Those would all be very prohibitive if it was a light metro or even if it was a high-floor tram.

And since it's less prohibitive cost-wise, you can expand it more easily to lower-ridership or density areas and still have the option to increase capacity if it's a success.

I'll admit it's not quite as big-city as a full (or light-) metro, but I think it makes a lot of sense in order to have a full and extensive network as soon as possible.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Anyway, for 6 years, I have been trying to convince myself (and other people) that this was a metro system using Light Rail technology. Now I see that it's nothing more than a light rail system.

We will never reach the likes of Montreal.

So we'll never have the likes of Montreal's Metro. I imagine Ottawa's system evolving more like Stuttgart's, which is quite a nice system of light rail lines with underground sections downtown. I think trains running on surface outside the core suits Ottawa's character and style better.

[eemy]

These vehicles actually don't compare too badly to the Canada Line in terms of capacity.

Vancouver: 334 pax per 41m train (8.1 pax/m)
Ottawa: 300 pax per 49m train (6.1 pax/m)

The use of the Citadis would be appropriate for pretty much every conceived line including potential surface operations.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Dado

I was trying to think innovative. My mistake. Lord knows what four slightly wider lanes are going to look like when converted back for regular use. Perhaps the three-laning plus bike lanes will be extended eastwards.

that's my hope, please don't laugh! ;-)

The suggestion that when it's time to lengthen the platforms we'd shift these trains to another line and order a news set isn't unprecedented. It's not exactly the same situation, but Paris ordered nice new trains for the Line 1 and then fairly soon after, they converted Line 1 to a fully automatic, driverless system with new-new trains and then started moving the old-new trains over to Line 4. But yes, it requires that more lines be built... a stretch for some's credibility.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I dunno. I think that the fact that it's a tram in a metro's clothing makes it more easily expandable. You could do corridors such as Carling without having to go grade-separated, Byron or the Ottawa River Parkway without freaking out the neighbours and even have a surface relief line if and when necessary.

The neighbours around Byron seem pretty freaked out by the prospect of light rail at grade... but the powers-that-be appear to have already determined it will be grade separated anyway.

Those would all be very prohibitive if it was a light metro or even if it was a high-floor tram.

At this point, a high-floor vehicle ought to be cheaper. They're easier to design since you're not as constrained for equipment space. On a line like this that is all grade-separated rebuild or new build, the cost differential between low and high floor stations should not be much.

And since it's less prohibitive cost-wise, you can expand it more easily to lower-ridership or density areas and still have the option to increase capacity if it's a success.

We'll have to see what comes of the Western LRT, especially south of Lincoln Fields. If the crossing of Iris is grade-separated, then the argument for light rail rather than light metro is pretty much hogwash.

As it stands on the books today, the system will ultimately be fully grade separated in the west as far as ScotiaBank Place, as far southwest as at least Hunt Club and as far east as Millennium P&R.

I'll admit it's not quite as big-city as a full (or light-) metro, but I think it makes a lot of sense in order to have a full and extensive network as soon as possible.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by McC

from this report with details on the stations (which a page earlier calls the Podium Building the "Crehoy Building"??? never heard that before!)

Funny that there's no mention of the Downtown East station integrating directly with WEX now or in the future. There will only be a standalone entrance on Queen beside the TD.

Crehoy is apparantly a tenant in the Podium. I have also never heard the Podium beign refered as the Crehoy building (or even the company itself).

As for the WEP connection, I also find the lack of connection strange considering that the WEP and SunLife Centre are owned by the same company; Bentall.

[Aylmer]

The current plans have it grade-separated, but the argument still stands that it's much easier to expand a tram than it is to expand a metro since it's made for surface operation.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Anyway, for 6 years, I have been trying to convince myself (and other people) that this was a metro system using Light Rail technology. Now I see that it's nothing more than a light rail system.

We will never reach the likes of Montreal.

It's fully grade-separated though which is critical.

[McC]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Crehoy is apparantly a tenant in the Podium. I have also never heard the Podium beign refered as the Crehoy building (or even the company itself).

Who knew?! Thanks!

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Dado

The neighbours around Byron seem pretty freaked out by the prospect of light rail at grade... but the powers-that-be appear to have already determined it will be grade separated anyway.



At this point, a high-floor vehicle ought to be cheaper. They're easier to design since you're not as constrained for equipment space. On a line like this that is all grade-separated rebuild or new build, the cost differential between low and high floor stations should not be much.



We'll have to see what comes of the Western LRT, especially south of Lincoln Fields. If the crossing of Iris is grade-separated, then the argument for light rail rather than light metro is pretty much hogwash.

As it stands on the books today, the system will ultimately be fully grade separated in the west as far as ScotiaBank Place, as far southwest as at least Hunt Club and as far east as Millennium P&R.

Iris might need to be closed since clearing the LRT might be difficult.

It would be impossible to elevate it any higher due to the disruption created between nearby local streets to build the elevated structure. In addition, raising the LRT over Iris would make the grade too high between there and the 417 underpass (while still having to fit a station). The only solution is to depress the LRT beneath Iris (basically at the current 417 underpass grade), and that may or may not be feasible due to flooding issues with Pinecrest Creek.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The current plans have it grade-separated, but the argument still stands that it's much easier to expand a tram than it is to expand a metro since it's made for surface operation.

I agree, but what we keep doing is designing it like a light metro.

So we're getting the capital cost of light metro without the benefits.

And that's why I mention Iris because if we're going to expand the outer areas as light rail, Iris is one of the first places where we should see a light rail rather than light metro design decision. Iris is beyond the 'split' in the west end rapid transit network (i.e. Lincoln Fields) so over the long term the Iris crossing/screenline would only be seeing half the number of trains as would be going past Tunney's Pasture.

Moreover, given the difficulty of grade separating Iris due to the presence of Pinecrest Creek, Iris is the very sort of place where the capital cost advantage of light rail over light metro should be realized.

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Iris might need to be closed since clearing the LRT might be difficult.

It would be impossible to elevate it any higher due to the disruption created between nearby local streets to build the elevated structure. In addition, raising the LRT over Iris would make the grade too high between there and the 417 underpass (while still having to fit a station). The only solution is to depress the LRT beneath Iris (basically at the current 417 underpass grade), and that may or may not be feasible due to flooding issues with Pinecrest Creek.

As above, we shouldn't need to grade separate at Iris at all.

That's why it will be interesting to see what they come up with. If they come up with a grade separation or 'close Iris' plan, then they are not actually serious about extending light rail on the surface further out and the justification for light rail rather than light metro would go out the window.


Btw, there is one more solution at Iris: move Pinecrest Creek to the west so it runs entirely on the west side of the line rather than crossing it thrice. That allows for the line to go under Iris without any other complications.

[Mille Sabords]

Well, all hair-splitting aside... I never thought I could be so proud of being an Ottawan as I do today.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It's fully grade-separated though which is critical.

That is my best reason to continue to support the project. It's regrettable that the reduced capacity will likely prevent any chance of a direct Airport-Downtown connection.

But hey, it could have been worst. Regardless of a few down falls, this is still a big day for the city and a huge step forward.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Well, all hair-splitting aside... I never thought I could be so proud of being an Ottawan as I do today.

But cautiously so. It feels like it's really happening, but we've never gotten past this feeling, so I can't help but not totally believe it yet (despite myself). I'll believe it when I see shovels in the ground.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

with the bus system they do not require 300 spare buses for a fleet of 900 or so.

Most days, anyway.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

So are they still going to have buses moving through the downtown on the streets?

One should hope, (a) because there are still plenty of desire-line trips that buses can accomplish that the LRT can't, and (b) buses can't fly.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Maybe they could put 30 m engine-less cars in the middle? Or maybe by the time we need 120 trains it will be time for new ones, and the old ones can be sold or run on the Carling Ave/Montreal Rd line

Said line to be build in the mid-23rd century.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

That is unless other lines are built later.

The inner-city bus routes will continue to run downtown (or at least they should) as they serve areas mostly away from the Transitway.

Yes, they should. But don't bank on it. OC Transpo has a city-centre route-splitting fetish that shows no signs of diminishing, no matter how inconvenient, messy, annoying, or inefficient it makes transit travel within the downtown core.

But at least it frees up resources to keep the suburbanites, and their heavily subsidized routes, somewhat happier.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That is my best reason to continue to support the project. It's regrettable that the reduced capacity will likely prevent any chance of a direct Airport-Downtown connection.

Maybe not in that tunnel.

But there's lots of downtown left.