Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[McC]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Why is there a Downtown West entrance in the Podium building? Isn't that thing coming down? But I like the design of the subway stations; clean, modern, simple.
Although the platform ceilings seems a little low, platform itself a little tight. Riminds me of a modern version of TO's downtown subway stations.

from this report with details on the stations (which a page earlier calls the Podium Building the "Crehoy Building"??? never heard that before!)
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/3xv4cr3i2fid21spe0h5fevm/3470212052012044120696.PDF

Integration with Existing Structures
The east entrance is located north of Queen Street within the Place de Ville building complex. The owner of the complex is currently considering a new office tower, and the station entrance takes into account the proposed development. One level below at the upper concourse level, the new station concourse will be designed to easily accommodate a future direct connection into the existing lower level of Place de Ville leading to the underground pedestrian tunnel under Queen Street.

Funny that there's no mention of the Downtown East station integrating directly with WEX now or in the future. There will only be a standalone entrance on Queen beside the TD.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Beedok

So are they still going to have buses moving through the downtown on the streets?

They will still be taking off all Transitway routes and Express buses. So about 2000 of the current 2600 buses going thru downtown will be taken off the road.

The tunnel has enough capacity for about 30 years as opposed to forever. It also reduces the chances of a direct airport to downtown line.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by McC

from this report with details on the stations (which a page earlier calls the Podium Building the "Crehoy Building"??? never heard that before!)
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/3xv4cr3i2fid21spe0h5fevm/3470212052012044120696.PDF

Exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!!

Where are you getting all of these PDFs?

[Kitchissippi]

Looks like the Rideau Centre Shopper's Drug Mart will be displaced:

a double elevator bank will be constructed within the Rideau Centre in proximity to the current Freiman Mall entrance. This elevator bank will connect the ground floor level of the mall to the station concourse below and also extend up to the level of the existing overhead walkway, connecting The Bay on the north side of Rideau Street.

[McC]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Where are you getting all of these PDFs?

care of David Reevely ‏on the twitter:
"@davidreevely Here's a report with moderately detailed accounts of the stations, in addition to the pictures. Includes site maps. http://bit.ly/VELytK"

[Dado]

Originally Posted by McC

from the report

this again makes me think that the widening of Scott will be about the City's preferred width for bus lanes, not about an additional 5th lane on Scott.

I was trying to think innovative. My mistake. Lord knows what four slightly wider lanes are going to look like when converted back for regular use. Perhaps the three-laning plus bike lanes will be extended eastwards.


And it's stuff like this that continue to make me wonder about the collective wisdom at the City:

http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache/2/pcj1y40vxhp3d2ecoa4a2vnp/3470012052012042225903.PDF

The RTG proposal provides this capacity by providing a two-vehicle, 98-metre long train whose doors are accessible within the 90-metre long surface platforms. Once ridership rises above the 2031 level, the surface platforms can be easily lengthened at the surface stations to accommodate a variety of future operating scenarios and train lengths. The expandable platforms at surface stations can support a variety of possible approaches to adding long-term capacity including the possibility of future orders for longer vehicles combined into longer trains.

Ok, so far so good. And note that 90 m platforms can accommodate the doors of a 98 m train, i.e. about 4 m off either end.

So we get to the bit on the tunnel stations:

All vertical circulation elements within stations have been sized for the ultimate capacity of the system. The three downtown underground stations are designed from opening day with a 120 metre platform to avoid any potential for costly excavation in the future. Public and emergency circulation elements have also been sized for these ultimate ridership volumes.

Umm, 🞵🞵🞵? A three-car train would be 147 m long. We have already just established that we can knock off about 4 m from either end without loss of door capacity. That gets us to just below 140 m, some 20 m longer than we're going to be building.

The only ways we could make full use of the 120 m stations downtown is to run trains with cars of varying length (which I have my doubts about since the practicalities of that mean that each 49 m car would have to be mated with a pair of, say, 38 m cars), add a couple of extra segments into the vehicles we're about to buy, or buy whole new trains and cars.

[eemy]

That's one of those things that can be sorted out after the fact though. (re: building connections)

[eemy]

Originally Posted by Dado

Umm, 🞵🞵🞵? A three-car train would be 147 m long. We have already just established that we can knock off about 4 m from either end without loss of door capacity. That gets us to just below 140 m, some 20 m longer than we're going to be building.

The only ways we could make full use of the 120 m stations downtown is to run trains with cars of varying length (which I have my doubts about since the practicalities of that mean that each 49 m car would have to be mated with a pair of, say, 38 m cars), add a couple of extra segments into the vehicles we're about to buy, or buy whole new trains and cars.

There is actually roughly 7 metres from the door at either end, but the math still doesn't work out, and would you really want the door opening right on the end of the platform?

The modular nature of the Citadis train-sets suggest that it would be fairly straightforward to get new ones which allow a 120 m platform, and maybe the shorter ones could be lengthened (the fact that they are being assembled in Ottawa would maybe make this easier?). It seems silly not to plan for this from the get go though. Another scenario could see these train-sets used on a future line and then longer ones acquired for this one. This all seems like an unnecessary complication though.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Dado

The only ways we could make full use of the 120 m stations downtown is to run trains with cars of varying length (which I have my doubts about since the practicalities of that mean that each 49 m car would have to be mated with a pair of, say, 38 m cars), add a couple of extra segments into the vehicles we're about to buy, or buy whole new trains and cars.

Maybe they could put 30 m engine-less cars in the middle? Or maybe by the time we need 120 trains it will be time for new ones, and the old ones can be sold or run on the Carling Ave/Montreal Rd line

[J.OT13]

The entrance next to the Broccolini site has been elimanated. But yet RTG and the city still provide renderings of that station entrance.

Following negotiations with RTG, it is now proposed that the Downtown West Station
– West Entrance be located on the southeast corner of Queen Street/Lyon Street
eliminating the pedestrian tunnel under Lyon Street and the entrance at the Albert
Street/Lyon Street location.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

They will still be taking off all Transitway routes and Express buses. So about 2000 of the current 2600 buses going thru downtown will be taken off the road.

The tunnel has enough capacity for about 30 years as opposed to forever. It also reduces the chances of a direct airport to downtown line.

That is unless other lines are built later.

The inner-city bus routes will continue to run downtown (or at least they should) as they serve areas mostly away from the Transitway.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

There is actually roughly 7 metres from the door at either end, but the math still doesn't work out, and would you really want the door opening right on the end of the platform?

The modular nature of the Citadis train-sets suggest that it would be fairly straightforward to get new ones which allow a 120 m platform, and maybe the shorter ones could be lengthened (the fact that they are being assembled in Ottawa would maybe make this easier?). It seems silly not to plan for this from the get go though. Another scenario could see these train-sets used on a future line and then longer ones acquired for this one. This all seems like an unnecessary complication though.

Based on the reports, maybe they should just build 105 metre stations initially then increase to 160 later.

[J.OT13]

And who or what is "RIO" and "CTP"?

[J.OT13]

So I'm thinking we should sit on the corner of Albert and Lyon for a few years and then sell it to Broccolini for profit.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

And who or what is "RIO" and "CTP"?

Rail Implementation Office - city group in charge of the project
Capital Transit Partners - engineering firms who did the preliminary designs and helped evaluate the proposals

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Rail Implementation Office - city group in charge of the project
Capital Transit Partners - engineering firms who did the preliminary designs and helped evaluate the proposals

Thanks!

[J.OT13]

Anyway, for 6 years, I have been trying to convince myself (and other people) that this was a metro system using Light Rail technology. Now I see that it's nothing more than a light rail system.

We will never reach the likes of Montreal.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Maybe they could put 30 m engine-less cars in the middle? Or maybe by the time we need 120 trains it will be time for new ones, and the old ones can be sold or run on the Carling Ave/Montreal Rd line

If the Confederation line gets very popular and hits capacity faster then anticipated it might push governments to build lines along Carling & Montreal to alleviate overcrowding.

We can only hope.

[J.OT13]

From the station document provided by McC (http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/cache...2044120696.PDF);

The shift to a centre platform configuration has the added benefit of facilitating an additional 900 m2 of land for TOD area.

I assume this means we can build on top?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

There is actually roughly 7 metres from the door at either end, but the math still doesn't work out, and would you really want the door opening right on the end of the platform?

Though I didn't write it since I didn't know the exact figure, I kind of guessed that the distance from the doors to the couplers was more than 4 m - that was just the difference they could get away with.

The modular nature of the Citadis train-sets suggest that it would be fairly straightforward to get new ones which allow a 120 m platform, and maybe the shorter ones could be lengthened (the fact that they are being assembled in Ottawa would maybe make this easier?). It seems silly not to plan for this from the get go though. Another scenario could see these train-sets used on a future line and then longer ones acquired for this one. This all seems like an unnecessary complication though.

Kitchissippi's idea of adding a shorter train in the middle would also work, but as I wrote earlier that brings up yard organization and train assembly issues and somehow I can't see that being too well liked for too long.

On balance inserting extra segments seems preferable.

But ya, whichever way you figure it, it is as you write above an "unnecessary complication" when making the platforms 140-150 m long would deal with it now and forever.