Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Remembering they all ready have the public support who want to see our capital city build a major CFL model stadium and not a inadequate facility that would be a total embarrassment, and that would also have no potential or future and end up being an eyesore, and a waste of taxpayers money. So do it right the first time or don't do it!

Again, I'd love to see this public support. I agree that the current proposal is probably the worst of both worlds - people who don't care about a stadium will (rightly) think it's a waste of $20M, and people who do want a stadium generally want it so that we can host a major league team, which is very unlikely with less than 20,000 seats. But committing to building a $60-100M stadium is a MUCH tougher sell to those who aren't interested. However, it would be a much more worthwhile investment, because then we could actually use it for stuff. I think that public support will be easier to drum up once the library, Nova Centre, etc. have finished construction. I agree that we need to wait until we can do it right the first time, and build something that's usable "out of the box", rather than compromise and end up with something that is somewhat expensive and mostly useless.

[wespidel]

You made some very valid points Hal, but will HRM listen this time. Polls did actually show more support for a stadium by quite a margin. I'm with you on the library and the CC projects being out of the way now, which actually could help, which is even more of a reason to treat a stadium project this time around, better than the previously proposed embarrassing steering committee's bare boned tiny little 10 to 14 thousand permanent seat stadium, which I agree will be useless and a waste of money.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't think it's accurate to state that the majority of the public want a stadium more than a new convention centre; if that's the case I'd love to see some hard evidence other than an informal online poll. A LOT of people are against a stadium, and a lot more are not against a stadium in principle, but ARE against building a stadium AND a convention centre immediately after the new library, and the CC is already a done deal. I would definitely support a stadium as long as major tenants can be lined up beforehand. I am also not too picky whether it's CFL, soccer or lacrosse; any major league sport would be ok with me. But I do not believe a stadium is a priority for the majority of HRM citizens at this time. If anything I think many would like to see one built just to end the debate over whether or not to build it.

Dexter has committed / spent $200 million + on two pulp mills for a net result of 250 (marginal/shaky) jobs and 11,000 votes and he is not done yet as there is still ample swap land for the taking. We wouldn't want it to fall into foreign hands?

Politically if he spent $200 million on a stadium in Halifax he could garner 100,000 votes with no further investment but of course it is about seats and not votes so let's bankrupt the Province to max out the bums in the Legislature chairs.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Empire

Politically if he spent $200 million on a stadium in Halifax he could garner 100,000 votes with no further investment

I'm skeptical about this. $200M is a LOT and I don't think 1 out of 4 people in Halifax would want to see that much spent on a stadium. Honestly the more I think about it, the more I think that we will have to let the Nova Centre play out for a while before the local population embraces the idea of a ~$100M stadium. Both projects are almost certainly money losers in a direct, literal sense (and this is all that a lot of people see), but they also have the potential to improve the economy in significant, tangible, but indirect ways. A stadium proposal right after the NC would likely get the response "great, now we have TWO massive government-funded projects that we don't really need that are both hemorrhaging money! Derp derp derp!"

I think the only realistic alternative would be if the Federal government agreed to donate/swap/sell at a reasonable price the Shannon Park lands, and then if these lands were developed with a major multi-use public/private (or strictly private) proposal that included a stadium and a major transit hub. If the gears are actually in motion then I could realistically see this happening in the next few years. More and more people seem to be realizing that mixed-use is the way to go.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I'm skeptical about this. $200M is a LOT and I don't think 1 out of 4 people in Halifax would want to see that much spent on a stadium. Honestly the more I think about it, the more I think that we will have to let the Nova Centre play out for a while before the local population embraces the idea of a ~$100M stadium. Both projects are almost certainly money losers in a direct, literal sense (and this is all that a lot of people see), but they also have the potential to improve the economy in significant, tangible, but indirect ways. A stadium proposal right after the NC would likely get the response "great, now we have TWO massive government-funded projects that we don't really need that are both hemorrhaging money! Derp derp derp!"

I think the only realistic alternative would be if the Federal government agreed to donate/swap/sell at a reasonable price the Shannon Park lands, and then if these lands were developed with a major multi-use public/private (or strictly private) proposal that included a stadium and a major transit hub. If the gears are actually in motion then I could realistically see this happening in the next few years. More and more people seem to be realizing that mixed-use is the way to go.

So you are saying 1/4 people in Metro wouldn't want to see the provincial Gov. spend that kind of money in Halifax for a stadium but are perfectly fine buying swamp land simply to protect it for some foriegn interest?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Empire

So you are saying 1/4 people in Metro wouldn't want to see the provincial Gov. spend that kind of money in Halifax for a stadium but are perfectly fine buying swamp land simply to protect it for some foriegn interest?

I didn't say that those people were "perfectly fine buying swamp land simply to protect it for some foreign interest". I just said that some of them would probably have a problem spending $200M on a stadium. Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

[someone123]

The polls are neither here nor there. I guess you have a compelling reason not to build something if nobody wants it, but governments build niche infrastructure all the time that may benefit only a small percentage of the population. It's also pretty common that people don't fully appreciate what benefits them, which is why we have elected representatives who are (theoretically) in a position to make more informed decisions.

I agree that the stadium will be a bit more palatable in a few years when council looks at another round of capital investment. Hopefully they'll look at some more serious transit projects as well.

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with someone123 - I think in this time of government restraint, it will likely be a bit difficult to build something when no one has come forward with a plan for a team. The build it and they will come idea might be a bit too risky for a stadium versus say Nova Centre where the developer has been actively advertising for tenants.

That said, I think fenwick has a good approach to build a good stadium (not a great one), but a good one to start off. Don't go 100% cheap, make sure the people who attend will have a good experience. Make sure its comfortable and that there are sky boxes for the big corporate fat cats. I think a roof to start off with is a bit much, but perhaps its something that could come in time. Certainly expansion will be important too...

This way, if you can honestly say you are building an okay stadium (7 out of 10 so to speak), then people won't think you are going crazy expensive or going super cheap.

[wespidel]

And it is a 198 million dollar project but with a first class training facility and Bomber offices. I agree again with Hal, 200 million should down be ruled out of the equation. HRM are still interested in building a 300 million dollar new Metro Centre and if they build a new one it won't be 100 million, it will be 300 million or more. So why is Halifax treating a stadium project 2nd rate. A stadium is as big a project as a new Metro Centre, so why isn't it being treated as such. It's simple, if HRM can't build a modern new state of art CFL model stadium, they should not build it until they are ready to. A major stadium should be a bigger project than the new Convention Centre which the city and province had no problem putting 112 to 120 million into. So yes Hal is right and it is not unreasonable. Actually anything under 150 million is at the bottom of the spectrum when it comes to building stadiums today. But a Ottawa or Hamilton CFL model would be fine. Remember the Commonwealth model for Halifax at Shannon Park, would have been better than these two models because it would have cost 230 million and been one of the better stadiums in the CFL, with 35 thousand permanent seats between the goals, expandable to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup, with a partial roof, and with all the most modern amenities. This was a state of the art facility, which Halifax will need if they ever want to be a player and put themselves on a National scale because in order to attract a potential CFL owner you need to have a CFL ready made model, plus to ability to stage a Grey Cup, and that is why a city the size of Halifax should wait until they are ready to build a 200 million dollar facility like Winnipeg's new CFL model stadium, so they can be a major player on a Global and National level.

[fenwick16]

I hadn't paid much attention to the Winnipeg Canad Inns Stadium previously, but watching this YouTube video (below) it is quite an interesting, simply built stadium with most of the seats between the goal-lines. I am referring to the current Winnipeg Stadium not the new stadium.

What if just the top tier of the Canad Stadium design was copied and built new with the bottom tier as a sunken design (many new stadiums, including the new Winnipeg Stadium are sunken designs to make access easier). Having the bottom section sunken would cut down on access ramp requirements. The Canad Inns stadium appears to have a large proportion of folding seats. It also has a large partial roof. Canad Inns Stadium is a stadium design has been tested in harsh Canadian winters for over 50 years (so I think that we can say that the design will be structurally sound). Copying a proven design will cut down on architectural/engineering costs, which could quite easily be several million dollars. New retro baseball stadiums have become very popular so why not for football also?

The Canad Inn Stadium was built in 1953 for $483,000 dollars - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canad_Inns_Stadium. I realize this would be more in today's dollars but even if a similar design was built new then the cost might only be in the $60 - $70 million dollar vicinity for 29,000 seats ($2,000 - $2,500 per seat). Has anyone been in this facility? It looks like a fun stadium to watch a sports or concert event in.

It nothing else, it shows a proven design that would have good sight-lines. It is also expandable for a Grey Cup and has hosted a few Grey Cups.

• Video Link

[wespidel]

I was in Winnipeg's old stadium and it needed to be replaced, but Bomber fans I met said they did like the Site lines at a Bombers game and did like the fact that the majority of the permanent folding seats were between the goal lines. And yes they did put In 50 thousand, with temporary seating for the last Argo/ Stamp Grey Cup held in Winnipeg. I think a design concept like this could work with a permanent seat capacity of 30 thousand as well, which would be better than 25 thousand permanent seats, but your still would to have to have the most modern amenities, that are now in their new Investors Group stadium.

[Hali87]

I've never been inside Canad Inns Stadium, but I've seen it from the outside a couple times. It seemed to have a very odd design; not in a bad way, but it was definitely distinctive/retro. Good point about it having proven itself in harsh weather; Winnipeg generally has a harsher climate than Halifax (sometimes much harsher)... very windy and wet.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Winnipeg generally has a harsher climate than Halifax (sometimes much harsher)... very windy and wet.

I've pointed this out before, but I find that people in Halifax have an exaggerated sense of how harsh the climate there is, and sometimes use climate as an excuse for not having outdoor activities, whereas people in coastal BC tend to think they're in an almost tropical location and people on the Prairies or in Quebec do things in spite of cold weather.

It's common that I hear the "snowstorm in Halifax every week!" story. A while ago I was curious, so I checked the Environment Canada snow storm data.

Anybody care to guess how many 25 cm+ snow storms Halifax gets per year, on average?

0.46, slightly less than one every two years. See: http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/c...province=ALL&provBut=&month1=0&month2=12

At the Sambro area weather station (Sable Island's also part of HRM but not exactly part of the city) the average daily high in January is +0.4 Celsius and there's, on average, one 25 cm+ snowstorm once every five years (0.20 per year). They only get 22 days per year of measurable snow there per year, compared to 42 in Toronto and 11 in Vancouver. Another interesting fact about the climate in Halifax is that the winter precipitation is about 3/4 rain on average, whereas Toronto is about 60% snow and the Prairies are close to 100% snow.

[worldlyhaligonian]

The province and city should fund it in addition to private investment.

There are so many things funded that don't help 99.9% of people in the province, so why shouldn't a stadium be built. Any argument against a stadium could be equally made against anything else... straight up.

Bailing out paper mills is fucking bogus. Moving jobs out of Halifax is even more dumb.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've pointed this out before, but I find that people in Halifax have an exaggerated sense of how harsh the climate there is, and sometimes use climate as an excuse for not having outdoor activities, whereas people in coastal BC tend to think they're in an almost tropical location and people on the Prairies or in Quebec do things in spite of cold weather.

I think a big part of it is that the "weird (bad?) Halifax weather" has somehow become a part of our cultural identity (ever see the Porter air ads for flights to Halifax?) I think our climate is less predictable than the Canadian average, but actually considerably nicer than most of the country. The only real exceptions I can think of are Victoria, the Okanagan, and the Kamloops area, which is basically a desert. Then there are cities like Winnipeg and Edmonton where no one really thinks of the weather as "bad", just very characteristic of Canada in general.

[someone123]

I am not sure if the climate really is less predictable. The temperature swings along the East Coast are smaller than anywhere but BC. In Alberta they occasionally get snow even in the summer months, but that has never happened in Halifax. What you do get in Halifax are bigger storms like Hurricane Juan. Halifax also got hit by White Juan but that is actually very similar to a snowstorm that hit Victoria in 1996 and left around 3 feet of snow.

It's debatable whether the Okanagan weather is better. I go there pretty much every summer. I love the change of scenery and the heat is nice for a few days but I'm always happy to get back to Vancouver and low-20s temperatures.

I would say that Victoria definitely has a nicer climate overall, but I would like it more if it were a bit warmer during the summer and if the summers were a bit longer. Basically I'd prefer San Francisco or San Jose weather, but nowhere in Canada is like that.

[ILoveHalifax]

As one who has only lived in Canada's warmer places, I feel we have some of the better weather in the country.
I grew up in Toronto and you spend all winter trying to stay warm and all summer trying to get cool. Halifax never gets as cold as Toronto. Somehow the wind seems to cut right thru you. I actually remember minus 30 F in Toronto but never near that in Halifax. Our winter temps are a little more moderate. Summers are comfortable, pleasantly warm days and cool nights, you might want to grab a jacket if out at night here.
Those frequent afternoon thunder storms in Toronto can be frightening.
Spring is always a little late getting here but we have the most beautiful falls that seem to linger into late November.
Vancouver, seems to have a spring that is just never going to turn to summer. Yes the winter is warmer but I got so tired of constant rain.
The national media does us wrong. They talk of a vicious winter storm lashing the Maritimes, but never mention that Halifax got rain or that it turned to rain.

[resetcbu1]

Everyone against a top notch stadium in HRM that I hear rant and rave seems to say to the effect of " why build a lavish stadium , we don't need that ..... it'll just be another white elephant " blah blah blah !

You now what will be a bigger "white elephant" a 40M$ stadium with no anchor tenant, under used and not or rarely bringing any extra busines to the suroundind restaurants, bars , and stores .... and brings a little civic pride which is unmesureable in $ value !

I would rather see a 120-150M$ spent on something that does all of the above !!!!

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

Everyone against a top notch stadium in HRM that I hear rant and rave seems to say to the effect of " why build a lavish stadium , we don't need that ..... it'll just be another white elephant " blah blah blah !

You now what will be a bigger "white elephant" a 40M$ stadium with no anchor tenant, under used and not or rarely bringing any extra busines to the suroundind restaurants, bars , and stores .... and brings a little civic pride which is unmesureable in $ value !

I would rather see a 120-150M$ spent on something that does all of the above !!!!

Absolutely. A stand-alone stadium that is built economically but does not have the capacity to host a pro sports team or major events would lose more money than a more expensive one that is physically and economically tied into the city and that has the capacity to make sure that it is actually used as a venue. We need to be looking at something "medium sized", IMO this would be within the vicinity of 20,000-30,000 seats. Anything much smaller would be a bigger waste of money because it would be considerably less useful and would generate significantly less cash-flow.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

Everyone against a top notch stadium in HRM that I hear rant and rave seems to say to the effect of " why build a lavish stadium , we don't need that ..... it'll just be another white elephant " blah blah blah !

You now what will be a bigger "white elephant" a 40M$ stadium with no anchor tenant, under used and not or rarely bringing any extra busines to the suroundind restaurants, bars , and stores .... and brings a little civic pride which is unmesureable in $ value !

I would rather see a 120-150M$ spent on something that does all of the above !!!!

I think two arguments are being combined into one. Opposition to a small 10 - 14K stadium that is not suitable for much of anything is one argument, that most people seem to agree with.

The other argument is whether people should hope for a $120 - $150 million dollar stadium that will probably not be built anytime in the near future or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium that might be possible. If funding for a $40 million dollar stadium wasn't obtainable then how do people jump to the conclusion that a much more expensive stadium is doable?

In reality this stadium discussion is just a discussion so whether people argue for a 25,000 seat expensive stadium or a more basic 25,000 seat stadium is somewhat of a moot point.