YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Spikester]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

787 metal

I saw what you did there.

[Valley_Refugee]

Well I wouldn't call 45 destinations a hub - maybe a strong focus city. 17 of those are Jazz flights to regional destinations, mainly BC, and another 6-8 are domestic. And how many of those weekly departures are YYZ and YYC?

Well, this point we're arguing is really silly, I guess...does it really matter? It's a small hub, it's a focus city on steroids. Whatever. However, being a lifelong Vancouver resident, I know there's nothing more Vancouverites like better than to complain and feed their inferiority complexes...myself included sometimes!

If we're comparing to an American carrier's hub airport, then no, 45 is not a hub. But the US has 10x the people and way more population density. I bet you, though, that none of any US airlines' focus cities have anywhere near the international connections AC offers out of YVR. For Canada and Air Canada, yes, YVR is a hub. Perhaps better connections to the US on AC metal would be more "hubby," so to speak, but in these days of alliance dominance, AC lets UA fill that role. Also, Air Canada's mainline aircraft only serve about 15-20 cities domestically, and some of those only seasonally. By contrast I think AC Express serves almost 60 cities...so the majority of destinations in Canada are only served by the regional affiliates. It's much the same in the US.

And obviously the most weekly departures would be to other AC hubs (YYC and YYZ), which are also two of Canada's only large cities.

[Hot Rod]

guys, your definition of a hub is fundamentally flawed. Only the largest airports in the world live up to some of what you guys are describing (PEK, SHA, HND, ORD, ATL).

I believe SFO is the major Asian gateway and west coast hub for United and has similar number of destinations (in United metal) as AC does at YVR. So in the same respect, I would consider YVR appropriately the major Asian gateway and western AC hub. A major focus city for AC would be Winnepeg or Edmonton in my mind.

United also has a wide variety of aircraft at SFO (not everything is widebody and they do have a few puddle jumpers). In fact, I would argue it is the small planes that make SFO a hub NOT the widebodies, which are almost exclusively the international gateway. I think YVR again, is similar.

Canada just isn't big enough to have multiple 100+ city hubs for the same airline. Sometimes, I often wonder why some of you are so quick to dismiss Vancouver. It is beyond being humble at times. ...

[teriyaki]

"...Four additional departures each week between Vancouver and Beijing starting June 1, for a total of 11 weekly departures, including a new late night flight timed to be convenient for business travellers. The flights will be operated with a Boeing 767-300ER aircraft."

Full press release here

So Air Canada has announced a bunch of new capacity upgrades and routes for 2013 summer season. YVR will be getting 4x more flights to PEK onboard their 767-300ER.

Also of note is YYC-NRT getting bumped up to daily service. Service to Japan seems to be on its way to recovery. Seattle has its new service from ANA. Delta is also trying to get into the market with their proposed SEA-NRT service.

[trofirhen]

I notice Air Canada is beginning evening flights Toronto-Istanbul. Turkish already serves YYZ.
If YVR were ever to get IST, we wouldn't need to worry so much about EK and the other gulf state carriers. IST would be a great destination, but .... you can't have everything.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I notice Air Canada is beginning evening flights Toronto-Istanbul. Turkish already serves YYZ.
If YVR were ever to get IST, we wouldn't need to worry so much about EK and the other gulf state carriers. IST would be a great destination, but .... you can't have everything.

If YYZ has IST, YVR will NEVER get it. [Un]Open Skies.

[Johnny Aussie]

^^ funny how they don't mention YVR-ICN is being cut to only 4 x week.
Yes, "Canada to Seoul" will be daily but it already was daily YVR-ICN... but not anymore... sneaky!

So net gain for YVR is one additional weekly 763! Yeah!

The "major" expansion is really out of YYZ.

I do know Asiana specifically mentioned YVR a few years ago... Who knows.

And Delta already flies SEA-NRT... they have applied and have been given approval to fly SEA-HND.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

^^ funny how they don't mention YVR-ICN is being cut to only 4 x week.
Yes, "Canada to Seoul" will be daily but it already was daily YVR-ICN... but not anymore... sneaky!

So net gain for YVR is one additional weekly 763! Yeah!

The "major" expansion is really out of YYZ.

I do know Asiana specifically mentioned YVR a few years ago... Who knows.

And Delta already flies SEA-NRT... they have applied and have been given approval to fly SEA-HND.

Wow, that press release is really terrible spin.

I wonder if the ICN cuts from Vancouver are due to a shortage of aircraft or competition from Korean Air, which will be running daily 772 service next summer?

As an observation, it's no wonder AC finds it hard to make YVR viable with schedules like that. 4x/weekly to one of the largest economies in Asia during peak season? Business travellers in particular will seek to find alternatives.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

If YYZ has IST, YVR will NEVER get it. [Un]Open Skies.

dammit !!

Of course, under the present Turkey - Canada bilateral, Turkish (or AC) can start YVR - IST whenever they want, if the market is there.
Jeremy Haak pointed this out to me some months back.
I think market size has a lot to do with it, not just YYZ hegemony.

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

dammit !!

Of course, under the present Turkey - Canada bilateral, Turkish (or AC) can start YVR - IST whenever they want, if the market is there.
Jeremy Haak pointed this out to me some months back.
I think market size has a lot to do with it, not just YYZ hegemony.

Yah, I don't think there is a some sort of YYZ conspiracy going on. The market in and surrounding YYZ (within 2.5 hours flight) is over 100 million people. Premium traffic is also higher given the substantially larger corporate base. I agree though, that the press release spin was bizarre.

[deasine]

There's no conspiracy going on. Not factoring demand, YYZ-IST will always make more sense than YVR-IST even based on the reasons of geography. Connections to Asia (particularly Southeast Asia, India) make sense via IST, whereas it doesn't make as much as sense from YVR.

Which is why I'm surprised Finnair hasn't beefed up its service to East Coast to further increase competition due increase more fifth freedom traffic through its HEL hub (then again, it's much more focused on increasing its Asia services).

[Klazu]

Finnair's strategy is more to be the fastest connection between Europe and Asia, and their only connection to North America is a daily flight to New York. They also have some seasonal flights to Toronto and Miami, I think.

I think their long distance planes are pretty much tied to the existing Far East routes, at least before they get their A350's in few years. Even then I haven't heard them planning to expand their NAM offering, so most likely they will open more routes to Asia (if they are still flying at that point).

[trofirhen]

Which destination WOULD make a viable transfer point for Vancouver, heading east into Russia, India, Africa, and so forth? Are we just fine with what we have? (LHR, AMS, FRA) or is there another airport that would serve us well AND be economically viable?

If not, so be it, but I was sure we had not exhausted all the possibilities yet.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Finnair's strategy is more to be the fastest connection between Europe and Asia, and their only connection to North America is a daily flight to New York. They also have some seasonal flights to Toronto and Miami, I think.

Precisely so, but Finnair's (AY) main competition (aside from of course the direct routes) are the Gulf-based carriers. Yes, DOH, DXB, and AUH perhaps doesn't have the geographic-advantage HEL has, but QR, EK, and EY have a lot more resources at hand. And with QR joining oneworld, QR having "a really friendly relationship" with BA, EY increasing its partnerships with AF and KL, and EY mobilizing AB's resources (also in oneworld), and potential word of LH and TK merging, AY might find increasingly difficult to compete in this market. Don't forget, AY is also struggling with internal costs, just not to the scale as its regional competitor SAS (who almost folded).

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Which destination WOULD make a viable transfer point for Vancouver, heading east into Russia, India, Africa, and so forth? Are we just fine with what we have? (LHR, AMS, FRA) or is there another airport that would serve us well AND be economically viable?

If not, so be it, but I was sure we had not exhausted all the possibilities yet.

Wouldn't this be at the mercy of airlines? Don't get me wrong: I would love to see flights to Doha, Dubai, Helsinki, and Istanbul, but it just doesn't seem realistic at this point in time given the low demand and limited potential of fifth-freedom traffic through these hubs.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

Wouldn't this be at the mercy of airlines? Don't get me wrong: I would love to see flights to Doha, Dubai, Helsinki, and Istanbul, but it just doesn't seem realistic at this point in time given the low demand and limited potential of fifth-freedom traffic through these hubs.

When Vancouver gets bigger (3 million plus), do you think that any such destinations might be possible at that time?

[Gordon]

AC announced today the they were adding 3 flights per week to the yvr pek route for their Summer schedule.

[twoNeurons]

YVR - KIX pretty please!
SEA - HND sounds attractive. I'd much rather fly into HND. Anyone know if those are still restricted to after 10PM landings or has Tokyo opened up time slots earlier in the day?

[Gordon]

Has Ac totlly gien up on yvr- hnd?

[Johnny Aussie]

Strange.

The AC App is actually showing 2 daily PEK on AC metal (in addition to Air China) next summer....

AC 29 dep YVR 1215 Daily
AC 27 dep YVR 2200 Daily

Returns

AC 28 arr YVR 2150 Daily
AC 30 arr YVR 1205 Daily

Not sure if this is "correct" or not.

I say "strange" because all of the other flight increases mentioned are loaded as well. So not sure why PEK is showing 2 daily and not 11 weekly as mentioned in the press release.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Has Ac totlly gien up on yvr- hnd?

The landing times given for international carriers at HND were pretty bad and didn't allow for connections, thus there wasn't fifth freedom traffic. As such, there wasn't enough demand generated and many North American carriers did not start service to HND.