LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[alki]

Originally Posted by citywatch

that would seem more the case if alot of this starts happening very shortly....

nd those are just the tip of the iceberg.

When I was in the hood several months ago, the thing that caught me off guard is how much of dt....definitely around the southern sections....still really needs to be cleaned up & razed. One of the reasons I got lulled into believing dt was better than it really is cuz of all the improvements that have taken place over the past few yrs. But also cuz of all the discussions in this forum, where, again, we spend so much time worrying about bldgs not being taller, or not having a great design, or having parking podiums instead of retail, that I found myself forgetting what the hood is really still like.

btw, mojeda, I replied to your post about your recent trip, which has since been deleted, cuz it strayed beyond the topics of this forum. But I did include a link to a blog that does contain a section relevant to this thread, cuz it relates to someone visiting dtla. And I think that does fit the purpose of this thread, cuz new devlpt....how much of it, & how successful it will be or won't be....is very dependent on how ppl feel about the hood....ppl who are staying in hotels in dt, who work in the hood, who shop there, or who are living there. iow, if too many ppl feel about dt, then all those things visible from the hotels at LA live are gonna take even longer to go farewell & sayonara.

Actually IMO its not very appropriate at all. First the guy said there were homeless people throughout LA and not just DTLA. He also said that he had visited three cities in the US that had significant homeless populations.......Chicago and SF in addition to LA. His comment was more an indictment of American capitalism than a reflection on DTLA.

[alki]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

I don't mind the big Caruso project on Burton Way. Angelina looks nice, and One Santa Fe has the capability to be incredible. Hollywood, also, has some great things coming and under construction, including the just announced Astani project.

The Caruso is not bad but it has only 88 units vs 672 units in the Nadel project. Don't know Angelina. One Santa Fe I definitely don't like......looks like a supersized bowling alley/county prison.....although its the only project that approaches the size of the new one......438 units. I think the Astani project is okay but if you notice its imaging [at least the one I saw] shows the bldg fading into the distance so you only see one portion up close.......I suspect if you see the entire bldg at once, it may seem overwhelming and pedestrian at the same time. And again its a much smaller bldg at 280 units.

I guess I don't see a lot of good design out there. At least with the Nadel project, they took a monster bldg and broke it up so it doesn't overwhelm. Whether that will be true when its actually built, time will tell. In fact, I would like to compare the Nadel vs the Astani when the two projects are completed.

[alki]

Originally Posted by citywatch

alki, again, I think a cigar is sometimes just a cigar & you're making things more complicated than they really are.

If its not that complicated, please explain to me why Bunker Hill which has clean sidewalks, classy bldgs, lots of open space and virtually no panhandlers is mostly empty of people walking about. After all, it should be your DT ideal. So please, explain away.

A hood that's fugly & rundown....made much worse by too much homelessness & panhandlers, & dirty sidewalks....won't make most ppl-----again, MOST ppl-----feel cuz its newer bldgs aren't in the book of great architecture, cuz its new apt bldgs are too short, cuz LA live doesn't connect better to the surrounding area, cuz there are parking podiums instead of stores, cuz a new proj is painted in certain colors, cuz new park benches are a bright pink instead of a dark green, cuz walls are stucco instead of granite, cuz the principles of Jane jacobs aren't being followed line by line. No, I'd say most ppl----again, MOST ppl-----will feel about the hood cuz it's......fugly & rundown, with too many homeless milling around, in too many instances on very dirty sidewalks.

Yuck? Some of the shabbiest cities in the world are some of the most exciting ones.......Buenos Aires, Rome, Mexico City, Shanghai to name a few. Back in the early 90s, the alphabet avenues in east Greenwich Village had some of the best restaurants and clubs, and some of the shabbiest bldgs in all of Manhattan. There were people on the streets night and day.

Yes, there are people who want things spic and span and deodorized but they tend to hang out in shopping malls.

But I do agree that the overly quiet nature of bunker hill...with its large underpopulated plazas....isn't going to make the average person wanna go & . however, I think what really puts a chill on the hood to them is that, even today, some very large portions of it are no better than this....


google.com

the economy of dt has been so weak for so many yrs & yrs, that large pieces of bh....ripe for new devlpt....have sat unused or barely utilized, even in 2012.

Its more than just a weak economy. Bunker Hill is a tribute to the City Beautiful movement, a neighborhood design concept developed by Corbusier. It was a concept mimicked all over the US in city after city all thru the 1960s and 1970s........and most everyone of those projects has failed. Its a concept used to show architectural and planning grad students[me included] how not to build city neighborhoods. All thru the 90s while Bunker Hill was failing, owners on Broadway, the ugly/shabby step sister, were coining money.

alki, your POV reminds me of a forumer who I believe also thought the grit of a street like broadway & the poorness seen throughout dt was either tolerable or even sort of hip. But he described how he took a friend originally from europe to visit that street & she was very about how dirty & rundown it was. I had a sense her tude affected him the same way that a similar negative reaction of my own friend....who I took to dt with her daughter earlier this yr.....affected me.

Look......neither sanitized Bunker Hill nor grimy 90s Broadway is my ideal. However, if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Broadway because at least its alive, urban and has potential. Bunker Hill is Glendora or Thousand Oaks dropped into DTLA. It will never be more than a tribute to the idiocy of American urban renewal as practiced back then.

[QUOTE]I still recall the time I was with some family members on that street & my daughter was totally put off by the area....she said something like "who shops around here?! why would anyone want to browse these stores??!"

so I think for every person who goes cuz a new proj doesn't fit their idea of great design....cuz it isn't tall enough or painted too many colors.... there are way more ppl.....hundreds of more ppl.....who will go & feel cuz of the condition of things like the clark hotel on hill street...[/QUOTE]

This is a forum about bldgs.......of course, posters are going to discuss different aspects of a new bldg....what they like or dislike......its color palette, its height, its density. However, DTLA can't afford to build projects like it did before.....isolated monuments to some owner's ego with huge, unused plazas in front..........devoid of retail. Putting in a plaza is like knocking out someone's front tooth..........it tends to diminish a person's smile. Its why Figueroa may never be a great walking street. Its why 7th, Broadway, Spring and Main probably will be.

As for shabby, that will go away as DTLA grows more popular. No worries.

[alki]

Originally Posted by DistrictDirt

I found more pixels.

Its not a bad bldg........what I like about infill projects like this one is that it takes another empty lot off the books, provides more people living DT, and has retail on the first floor which will create more street traffic. It will be an improvement over what's there now.

[ChelseaFC]

Originally Posted by Easy

It's based on a theory of relativity. Relative to most of what we get around LA, it's fantastic, but relative to what Astani originally proposed, it's kind of crap.

That being said, it's far from horrible and I'm generally pleased if that's what we end up with. Lots to like about it.

I'm going to take the fringe position here and say that with the exception of its height, on a design basis it's much better than the wavy Astani proposal. I never fell in love with it and thought it quite busy. In a district so close to the Historic Core, you can do modern well, but at the same time, modern can come out all sorts of wrong. Perhaps it is because when it comes to modern architecture, my ideal is clean, hard lines in a sort of Scandanavian post-modern vein with a cooler, glassy color palette (lots of whites, blacks, silvers, yellows and blues). If you're going to do infill, this is the sort of thing we should be striving to do more of. It's not supposed to make a "splash". Remember, it's part of a neighborhood.

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by alki

The Caruso is not bad but it has only 88 units vs 672 units in the Nadel project. Don't know Angelina. One Santa Fe I definitely don't like......looks like a supersized bowling alley/county prison.....although its the only project that approaches the size of the new one......438 units. I think the Astani project is okay but if you notice its imaging [at least the one I saw] shows the bldg fading into the distance so you only see one portion up close.......I suspect if you see the entire bldg at once, it may seem overwhelming and pedestrian at the same time. And again its a much smaller bldg at 280 units.

I guess I don't see a lot of good design out there. At least with the Nadel project, they took a monster bldg and broke it up so it doesn't overwhelm. Whether that will be true when its actually built, time will tell. In fact, I would like to compare the Nadel vs the Astani when the two projects are completed.

The new project I posted about over in L.A. Metro looks fantastic!

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by alki

Look......neither sanitized Bunker Hill nor grimy 90s Broadway is my ideal. However, if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Broadway because at least its alive, urban and has potential. Bunker Hill is Glendora or Thousand Oaks dropped into DTLA. It will never be more than a tribute to the idiocy of American urban renewal as practiced back then.

alki, a good friend of mine is a school teacher. She told me a few yrs ago about how many of the ppl in her social circle are....naturally....also teachers. She said that just about everyone in her profession talks about public schools as being very relevant and worthy of preserving at all costs. Yet she knows of several teachers who send their own kids to private schools. When I hear ppl saying that broadway is so real & relevant....or you saying it's alive & urban....I can't help but think of what my friend told me awhile back.

btw, is this becoming OT? not really, cuz the future pace of new devlpt in dtla will be influenced in part by how comfortable....or uncomfortable....ppl with kids feel about the hood. There have been stories of various ppl moving to dt as singles without children. But when they get married & have kids, they want their children to attend good schools. In quite a few instances, those parents feel they have no choice but to move out of the area.

so along with dt hurting cuz it can't attract new businesses that still prefer hoods nearer the coast....areas like samo or venice-----which makes projs like wilshire grand even harder to pencil out------if all the ppl who eventually want to raise a family end up feeling that dtla is too for them, that means another segment of the economy is lost to the hood. so new apt & condo projs will remain short & of wood construction.

one more thing, alki. You must not pick up ppl's vibes about LA or other places, cuz that blog from the person visiting LA didn't reflect on dt, or the whole city, cuz of his focusing on homelessness. What you failed to notice is that he said very specific about 2 other american cities he also has visited during the past few days. but with LA....& he stayed at a hotel in dt.....he just wanted to talk about homelessness.

btw, the new apt proj south of the brockman is disappointing only cuz the design that astani was flashing around a few yrs ago was more impressive to me. for some reason the new owner's version of that proj looks very commercial, like it's more for offices than residences. I pity the person who has to clean all that glass.

however, I do recall being there about 2 yrs ago, or using it for what it has long been: a huge parking lot. as parking lots go, I was quite at how potholed, fugly & lonely it felt. Replacing it with new devlpt won't come a second too soon.

[SoCalKid]

Can you two please take your arguments to a private message chain?

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by SoCalKid

Can you two please take your arguments to a private message chain?

socalkid, I hope you're not one of those who scratches his head & can't figure out why dt doesn't have more bigger, taller new bldgs....why the grand wilshire proj is taking so long to get started, much less completed.....& why apt projs in the hood tend to be shorter wood framed type construction instead of the more $$ type that contains steel & concrete. Or I hope you're not one of the forumers who complains that new devlpt in dt is more buran instead of urban. iow, it comes down to the economics of the hood & how that affects new devlpt. That really is no less a meaningful subj of what this thread is all about.

the point I've been making is that it take $$ to support bldgs that are taller instead of shorter. It takes ppl with lots of $$....be they residents, stores or businesses....to move into all the projs that many forumers have big dreams about.

Yet ppl still complain about the various new projs in dt....as though the hood is one big gold mine....or are puzzled that new devlpt isn't bigger & better.

[Mojeda101]

I haven't seen blackcat in a while . I was hoping to get an update on 8th and Hope(REALLY wish they set up a live cam soon). I'm heading over there Saturday(most likely) to get an update going on all the projects under construction(ie: Marriott, iHope, Wilshire Grand) I was going to type Grand Park but it's done! Ha , but I'll stop by to get a shot at the station underway. I've flaked on the past two times, and I apologize, but the car seems fine now so I'll do my best. It just gets dark too damn early and I haven't had a chance to break in the camera and panorama shots on downtown yet Anyone know when shops start setting up at figat7th? Not sure if they have already begun, haven't been there in a while. Still waiting on seeing it like this

[sings twin]

Originally Posted by Mojeda101

I haven't seen blackcat in a while . I was hoping to get an update on 8th and Hope(REALLY wish they set up a live cam soon). I'm heading over there Saturday(most likely) to get an update going on all the projects under construction(ie: Marriott, iHope, Wilshire Grand) I was going to type Grand Park but it's done! Ha , but I'll stop by to get a shot at the station underway. I've flaked on the past two times, and I apologize, but the car seems fine now so I'll do my best. It just gets dark too damn early and I haven't had a chance to break in the camera and panorama shots on downtown yet Anyone know when shops start setting up at figat7th? Not sure if they have already begun, haven't been there in a while. Still waiting on seeing it like this

Mojeda if you can get a few shots of the Marriott i would greatly appreciate it. Really enjoy seeing the updates.

[blackcat23]

Originally Posted by Mojeda101

I haven't seen blackcat in a while . I was hoping to get an update on 8th and Hope(REALLY wish they set up a live cam soon).

I took this one week ago.



It's still just a giant hole in the ground. Now it's a slightly wider/deeper hole in the ground.

[citywatch]

this article in the NY Times is interesting only if it's correct about groundbreaking having occurred on the apt bldg next to the broad museum. If it's accurate, then it's the first I've heard of that proj being under actual construction. however, I do recall the devlpr saying several months ago that they hoped their apt proj would begin by november...

LOS ANGELES — For more than a decade, civic leaders and developers here have envisioned a large-scale redevelopment of downtown Los Angeles’s main civic and cultural thoroughfare, Grand Avenue. This past summer, the first — and smallest — component of this vision finally opened to the public. But instead of a massive mixed-use edifice that would completely change the streetscape, it was a modest 12-acre space named Grand Park, which replaced an existing but unwelcoming civic center plaza.

For now, Related’s plans for a mixed-use building modeled loosely on its Time Warner Center in New York, which houses a hotel, retail stores, offices, condominiums and a major jazz stage, have been delayed. But a $130 million modern art museum, housing the collection of and paid for by the philanthropist Eli Broad and designed by Diller Scofidio + Renfro, was under construction and planned for completion by early 2014. Related also recently broke ground on a 24-story, 271-unit luxury rental building adjacent to the Broad museum, with 20 percent of the units designated as affordable housing.

The park was supposed to be part of a later phase of development, said Bill Witte, president and chief executive of Related California. But that changed when the recession struck, undermining the condo sales market that was a bedrock of Related’s vision. As a result, the fate of the mixed-use linchpin of the broad scheme is uncertain. Related has until February 2013 to come up with financing, which will almost certainly be prohibitively costly in the current market.

^ that last sentence is for those ppl who keep wondering why new projs in dt aren't bigger & taller. Or wonder why almost all the new devlpt now underway is rather modest in scale.

[RuFFy]

The last sentence of the article was the best. Gloria Molina appears to be on board to demolish the hall of administration and the courthouse.

[Mojeda101]

A lot can happen in a week Blackcat, look at the Shanghai tower =P

Citywatch, wasn't that tower supposed to be 19 floors? Now it's 24? I'm fine with that =P

[WonderlandPark]

There was absolutely no work taking place on that lot as of Sunday morning when I walked around Bunker Hill taking pictures in the fog. Its a staging area for the museum and that is it at this point.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Mojeda101

Citywatch, wasn't that tower supposed to be 19 floors? Now it's 24? I'm fine with that =P

mojeda, I guess since it was being reported by the supposed newspaper of record, I assumed the article was accurate. But I should have known better. as things turn out, saying that actual work has already begun on the tower was & is too good to be true....

On Thursday, Grand Avenue project developer Related will seek its first of four necessary approvals from local government bodies to build its proposed $100 million, 19-story apartment tower on a site just south of the under-construction Broad museum.

It requires special approval because the project represents a departure from the original Grand Avenue Project scope, which would have permitted two 35-story towers on the parcel.

Related is otherwise ready to break ground on the 271-unit building, said Bill Witte, president of Related California. Twenty percent of the apartments will be affordable. The rest will be geared toward luxury renters.

Once the CRA succersor agency approval is in hand, Related will take the proposal next to the Board of Supervisors. If approved, the project could break ground as soon as December, Witte said.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by WonderlandPark

There was absolutely no work taking place on that lot as of Sunday morning when I walked around Bunker Hill taking pictures in the fog. Its a staging area for the museum and that is it at this point.

You've scooped the reporter of the new york times.

[LAofAnaheim]

citywatch, et al speculators, until you see visual evidence from one of us who live in downtown and walk the area in a daily basis, you cannot trust a newspaper from far off yonder that says "project has broken ground". It's those of us, who have the eyes on the streets, that will inform you.

By the way, the Honda Design Center between 9th and Olympic on Flower opened tonight. Fantastic spot, full of light! Good infill office space on the ground floor of a residential building.

I went to the LA Live! tree lighting tonight. It was a lot of fun to see 1,000 people surround the stage at Nokia Plaza for a tree lighting ceremony and see Barry Manilow. No matter what other people say, LA Live! is our "mini" Times Square. We should have a New Years Eve countdown at Nokia Plaza. And then Grand Park is now our "mini" Central Park. Things are working out really well for LA.........

(cue Citywatch with the negativity)

[Mojeda101]

Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim

No matter what other people say, LA Live! is our "mini" Times Square. We should have a New Years Eve countdown at Nokia Plaza. And then Grand Park is now our "mini" Central Park. Things are working out really well for LA.

LA live is indeed a wonderful place but it just needs more amenities, and i'm sure with the addition of the football stadium and the loads of fans on game days, it'll be a much more bustling place now that the demand is there. Possible expansion in one way or another? I feel like the area between the Nokia Theatre and the Ritz Carlton could be a spot in particular. It's a long walkway with giant advertisements on the side, and...that's it. I can see some sort of entertainment of sorts there to spread things out a bit.

Grand Park has been more successful than I had thought it to be if you ask me. It has become a gathering place for certain events and gatherings. We never really had that until now, and it's special in it's own way. Another location to take the visitors whenever they fly down here