Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Well at work today I've heard only 2 people mention anything about the Grey Cup - which is more than normal.

As usual, most of the sports talk centred around the NFL games yesterday - whether it was co-workers or just strangers chatting in elevators or in the concourse.

It was almost as if their own team didn't just win the 100th anniversary of the championship at home.

It is what it is.

Weird, because most of the people I've seen and talked to today couldn't be more excited about it.

It's almost as if it depends on the type of people you hang out with.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Well at work today I've heard only 2 people mention anything about the Grey Cup - which is more than normal.

As usual, most of the sports talk centred around the NFL games yesterday - whether it was co-workers or just strangers chatting in elevators or in the concourse.

It was almost as if their own team didn't just win the 100th anniversary of the championship at home.

It is what it is.

You're right, it is what it is... but the fact that you seem to be gloating/pleased that by and large your group of friends/the people with whom you interact throughout the day largely ignored something of such historical national significance in favour of a foreign league is sort of a sad state of affairs.

We'll find out the national viewership soon enough and see how your experience fits with the rest of Canada. My guess it'll be along the lines of 1 in 6 to 1 in 5 Canadians on average, peaking around 1 in 3 or so catching at least a portion of the game.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Nathan

You're right, it is what it is... but the fact that you seem to be gloating/pleased that by and large your group of friends/the people with whom you interact throughout the day largely ignored something of such historical national significance in favour of a foreign league is sort of a sad state of affairs.

We'll find out the national viewership soon enough and see how your experience fits with the rest of Canada. My guess it'll be along the lines of 1 in 6 to 1 in 5 Canadians on average, peaking around 1 in 3 or so catching at least a portion of the game.

There seems to be this unique tendency in this country to think that if it is wholly Canadian then it is no good. Be it football, music (look at the booing of Bieber) what ever. Unless we get this nod of approval from outside of Canada then you are nothing and must be second class.

Very sad state of affairs.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There seems to be this unique tendency in this country to think that if it is wholly Canadian then it is no good. Be it football, music (look at the booing of Bieber) what ever. Unless we get this nod of approval from outside of Canada then you are nothing and must be second class.

Very sad state of affairs.

Well Bieber was booed because he generally doesn't appeal to the football demographic (but I do agree with his selection since the grey cup should always have the most popular current Canadian act, not rock groups far past their prime).

And regarding his booing... He wasn't really booed much during or after his set. He was definitely full-on booed when they made some announcements of the half time show lineup between plays in the first half. Jepson was probably the best act of the 4 though, and by a pretty wide margin I think.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Well Bieber was booed because he generally doesn't appeal to the football demographic (but I do agree with his selection since the grey cup should always have the most popular current Canadian act, not rock groups far past their prime).

And regarding his booing... He was really booed much during or after his set. He was definitely full-on booed when they made some announcements of the half time show lineup between plays in the first half. Jepson was probably the best act of the 4 though, and by a pretty wide margin I think.

Oh I am no Bieber fan (I'm sooooo far from that demographic).

Jepson was much better.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Nathan

You're right, it is what it is... but the fact that you seem to be gloating/pleased that by and large your group of friends/the people with whom you interact throughout the day largely ignored something of such historical national significance in favour of a foreign league is sort of a sad state of affairs.

We'll find out the national viewership soon enough and see how your experience fits with the rest of Canada. My guess it'll be along the lines of 1 in 6 to 1 in 5 Canadians on average, peaking around 1 in 3 or so catching at least a portion of the game.

Some quotes from a TSN article.. My thoughts were actually pretty bang on:

Meanwhile, an average audience of 5.8 million watched the 100th GREY CUP on TSN and RDS, marking a 28 per cent increase in viewers compared to last year and earning an incredible national 16.1 rating. Audiences jumped even higher for younger viewers, with a 38 per cent increase among Adults 18-34.

Overall, more than 13 million Canadians – or more than one in three Canadians – tuned in to watch some or all of last night's broadcast on TSN and RDS.

In the Toronto Extended Market, more than 3.6 million viewers watched some of the 100th GREY CUP on TSN – close to half the population in this market.

TSN Article

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Some quotes from a TSN article.. My thoughts were actually pretty bang on:

Not surprised by the ratings. I knew the GTA ratings, which turned out to be awesome, would be higher than they had been in recent memory.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I watched the Bears/Vikings game yesterday prior to the Stamps/Argos.

With the early game there were;

Dropped passes - one right in the receivers hands
Missed blocks -
Poor tackling -
Lame duck throws -

There was also
Great defence
Superb catches
Perfect spirals

One team won and the other team could not generate a lot of offence

and I was entertained

During the evening game there were;

Dropped passes - one right in the receivers hands
Missed blocks -
Poor tackling -
Lame duck throws -

There was also
Great defence
Superb catches
Perfect spirals

One team won and the other team could not generate a lot of offence

and I was entertained


As a fan I cannot ask for more. I am watching supurbly conditioned athletes giving their all. I don't give a fiddlers fack if they are CFL, NFL, CIS, NCAA, High School or Regina Minor Football. I see kids and men giving their all to compete and I really enjoy that.

In an NFL conference championship game earlier this year, the Baltimore Ravens had two chances to beat New England at the end of the game but did not: one dropped pass and one missed short field goal. One game away from the Super Bowl. In the best league in the world. It happens. Not just in the CFL.

The balance between great plays and the occasional blunder is what brings drama to sport.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ramako

Not at all, though I may watch the Super Bowl on occasion.

I'll be honest. I'm one of those fans who tends to follow the city more than the sport itself. While I am a rabid Blue Jays and Raptors fan, and I do genuinely enjoy watching and playing baseball and basketball, if Toronto didn't have a team in MLB or the NBA, I'd probably stop paying as much attention as I do to those leagues. And if Toronto were awarded an NFL team tomorrow, I'd probably start paying a whole lot more attention to football. It's difficult to become invested in a team of strangers unless there's some kind of connection there.

But simply having a team isn't enough. I also have to feel like I'm watching the best talent in the world. So while Toronto does have CFL and MLS teams, I've never paid much attention to them, because the perception is, wrongly or rightly, that those leagues aren't the best at what they do, and thus aren't worth it. It's the same reason that most people aren't fans of watching swimming or track and field until the Olympics come along.

But ultimately, I'm open to giving the CFL a watch. A lot of people seem to genuinely enjoy it so there's clearly something there.

This is not necessarily directed at you, but what I find comical is the pro-NFL, anti-CFL obsession of many Canadians, who somehow think it gives them an air of worldliness and sophistication (that the CFL does not). When in fact no one elsewhere in the world cares about the NFL. The vast majority of people consider it to be a stupid sport and they actually laugh at it.

Granted, they would probably find the CFL stupid as well, but at least Canadians following that are in tune with something more closely related to their country's heritage (like Irish or Australian football), rather than trying to put on airs of faux worldliness and begging for acceptance and recognition from the "big guy" like the little dog in Spike and Chester:

http://cdn.stripersonline.com/8/85/858c5a6d_spike_chester.jpeg

[DrJoe]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There seems to be this unique tendency in this country to think that if it is wholly Canadian then it is no good. Be it football, music (look at the booing of Bieber) what ever. Unless we get this nod of approval from outside of Canada then you are nothing and must be second class.

Very sad state of affairs.

For me it has nothing to do with the CFL being Canadian at all. What I have trouble with is knowing that there is a better calibre league out there where every CFL player would rather be and infact would be if they were more talented. Now you hear the argument that the CFL requires a different skill set but by in large these guys play in the CFL because the aren't good enough for the NFL. There are a few basics differences between the leagues but they are essentially playing the exact same game.

I have the same problem with the MLS, Arena football, etc.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by DrJoe

For me it has nothing to do with the CFL being Canadian at all. What I have trouble with is knowing that there is a better calibre league out there where every CFL player would rather be and infact would be if they were more talented. Now you hear the argument that the CFL requires a different skill set but by in large these guys play in the CFL because the aren't good enough for the NFL. There are a few basics differences between the leagues but they are essentially playing the exact same game.

I have the same problem with the MLS, Arena football, etc.

So what will happen if more of the oligarchs buy into the KHL and make it a priority to make sure the hockey players are paid better than in the NHL? Will that shift your hockey allegiance too? Or is there some sort of national pride that somehow protects the NHL (even though it's basically an American-controlled league now)?

Russia continues to get richer and the population area of the KHL is larger than the current hockey market in North America (Canada and the North Eastern US and maybe another pocket here and there).

They are already starting to be able to retain players from Eastern Europe. Only a matter of time before they start trying to go after North Americans too. It may take a bit longer, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities in the future. Something to consider anyway.


Even in other areas of the world there is a bit of national pride in their leagues. You'd have a hard time finding a Polish person saying "oh I can stand the Polish league; I'd much rather watch the German Bundesliga" or a French person saying the same about the English premiership.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind or anything with this... Just a commentary that it's sad that as a country so many of us can't have pride in our own league just because it's not the richest around.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by DrJoe

For me it has nothing to do with the CFL being Canadian at all. What I have trouble with is knowing that there is a better calibre league out there where every CFL player would rather be and infact would be if they were more talented. Now you hear the argument that the CFL requires a different skill set but by in large these guys play in the CFL because the aren't good enough for the NFL. There are a few basics differences between the leagues but they are essentially playing the exact same game.

I have the same problem with the MLS, Arena football, etc.

Except that doesn't explain the massive amounts of americans who watch NCAA....who seem to have no problem watching teams with maybe a half dozen future NFL'ers a couple future CFL'ers and a whole bunch who will never play a game after college. I wont even mention US high school football...

Canadain NFL fans... just admit.... you don't truly like football......you like sitting around your computer for hours screwing around with fantasy line ups and drafts.

[Welkin]

Let's face it, it all comes down to the money. NFL players must be exceptionally better than CFL players because they make so much more money, right? Perception is that if you are paid $10 million per year, you must be so much better than someone being paid $100,000 per year, to to the same work. Wrong!!! When Cameron Wake was playing in the CFL he was a second rate player to NFL lovers. But once he was part of the NFL, making millions and kicking NFL butt, he is all of a sudden a top flight player. In the NFL you run a 4.2/ 40. In the CFL you run a 4.5/ 40. That 0.3 of a second over 40 yards is the difference between getting paid millions of dollars in the NFL and playing in the CFL. CFL players are 97% as fast as NFL players, 97% as big as NFL players and 97% as good as NFL players. Fortunately CFL tickets are only 20% of the cost of NFL tickets. Let's face it, the NFL is never coming to Canada, so get out there and enjoy a wonderful game, support your local team and enjoy a league that is fan friendly and family affordable. GO CFL.

[eemy]

It may be a Toronto thing. They have always had rather tepid support for Junior Hockey, despite the size of the market. Other Canadian cities are able to provide support for multiple hockey teams and several levels of play despite being significantly smaller.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Well at work today I've heard only 2 people mention anything about the Grey Cup - which is more than normal.

As usual, most of the sports talk centred around the NFL games yesterday - whether it was co-workers or just strangers chatting in elevators or in the concourse.

It was almost as if their own team didn't just win the 100th anniversary of the championship at home.

It is what it is.

A huge television ratings smash is what it is, especially in the GTA.

100TH GREY CUP GAME SETS VIEWERSHIP RECORDS FOR TSN

TSN.CA STAFF
11/26/2012 6:40:12 PM


Overall, more than 13 million Canadians – or more than one in three Canadians – tuned in to watch some or all of Sunday night's broadcast on TSN and RDS.

In the Toronto Extended Market, more than 3.6 million viewers watched some of the 100th GREY CUP on TSN – close to half the population in this market.

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=410346

Only a few hundred thousand people in all of Canada watch an NFL game on a Sunday. You definitely travel within a very small, parochial group of people. You should get out more.

[osmo]

The only difference between CFL and NFL Athletes besides size and speed is simply the resources the leagues can offer.

NFL teams have the luxury of providing their players with more: coaches, better prep with film, practice fodder for them to beat up on on their one or two days of full-pad practice, more medical and training staff, etc. This IMO is the only stark difference between the two leagues. CFL budgets can not offer these things and if they could we would see little difference in the 'quality' of play.

My biggest complaint of CFL is the sloppy nature of the game, some people call this a more "open" style of game but take the rose coloured glasses off and the CFL pumps out a lot of mediocre ball from time to time. But this is not a knock against the players as we have noted many NFL players have come up here and filled the toiler up with their play. You even see how horrid the NFL can be with little prep, the new Thursday Night games are nearly unwatchable, even with divisional match-ups the games are crap as teams do not have enough time obviously to rest and prepare fully for their opponents.

So IMO the only disconnect comes from attributes outside the actual game/field of play. If the CFL could offer the same prep and attention to detail as the NFL then IMO the CFL could easily be a more desirable product as it would have the more wide open nature as the College game which many Americans prefer due to it's pass heavy 'run em up' style of play. Many top-tier Div 1 schools have budgets larger then the CFL itself, likewise many NFL teams expenses swell up into the $100+ Million dollar range but the interesting fact is that in some cases they are not rolling in the dough as we assume. The Green Bay Packers (the only team with public books) has been making around $10 million in profit lately while the Green-Riders are bringing in $1.5 Million per year. Given the market share, branding, and scope and size of differences between the two teams I find it quite impressive that the Riders are probably more profitable then many NFL teams (The likes of Jacksonville, etc are not making cash and are probably loosing a ton) and are nicely holding their own. Of course the The Riders are the fiscal darlings of the CFL but lets not forget the team was in the dumps not to long ago and this level of success can easily be attainable for at least half of the league (Winnipeg should make the jump into the Riders level of profit generation once the new Stadium opens up).

So maybe this ends the discussion on the "differences" on what's on the field. both are different products but the resources and money thrown at NFL just gives you a more polished and prepared product. Simple.

The Grey Cup game itself this year to me was nearly un-watchable it was a slow and wonky blow out. I made it through 2 and half quarters before switching it over to NFL. The halftime show was great and overall it was a well produced product but the game on the turf was a mess. I hope this helps give the Argos some new relevance in this town and hopefully come next year they can see a sizeable uptick in attendance/Season tickets.

And another note on York University for the Argos. The Argos are going to have to find a new home sooner rather then later. The Blue Jays are 80% committed to bringing in grass to the Rogers Centre (especially after they just did thier largest increase in spending in close to 20 years, and especially since Skydome and the dumpy Tropicana Field in Tampa are the only two fields left with turf) and they don't give two shits if it effects the Argos negatively if they do so. Once the lease is up soon all bets are off.

The Argos will have to eventually think of a plan for the future quick and the opportunity for public money with the Pan-Am games is a one once in a generation opportunity. Mark Cohon echoed this in the State of the League address stating that the Argos need a smaller facility to be successful viable down the road. I can assume the league is paying attention to the York situation and thinking of a way to work themselves into it, they would be fools not to.

Originally Posted by Prometheus

A huge television ratings smash is what it is, especially in the GTA.



Only a few hundred thousand people in all of Canada watch an NFL game on a Sunday. You definitely travel within a very small, parochial group of people. You should get out more.

The Grey Cup is a national event. High numbers do not surprise me. Show me Toronto specific numbers during the regular season.

Also "Extended" is stretching it. That mostly likely stretches far past Hamilton and up into Wasaga Beach. I know TSN/Bell wants to puff their chests at this accomplishment but give me Toronto central numbers. Look at how Calgary market share still crushed Toronto's numbers with Calgary's market largely still being centred around the main city and core outlying suburbs. Calgary is the largest cohesive television market in Canada with others stretch into other vast parts strange parts that don;t follow any political or 'typical' boundaries (i.e. GTA, Lower Mainland), etc. For instance BBM CANADA counts Victoria and Vancouver as one "market", and "French Canada" as another whole market.

The Toronto "market" has nearly 8 million people (BMM CANADA figures) in it but still Calgary had a greater share of TVs actually on tuned into the game with a market of 1.3 million. Which is more impressive?

So if your getting a large chunk of Southern Ontario where a large chunk of the country lives is it really that impressive? Its almost common sense as the Grey Cup is a large National event. TSN is fluffing its numbers up. Outside of the program commitments leading to the Grey Cup this telecast did not differ (the game itself) from other TSN broadcasts. They still pour more money into a Playoff NHL game then they do they Grey Cup (Many American channels Simulcast TSNs Coverage, a lot of $$$ in that for TSN). Its a Cash Pit for TSN - They know people will watch and they did this thing on the cheap.

My bet that Toronto numbers during the regular season mirror NFL numbers. They Grey Cup I believe is top 1-5 TV events every year in Canada. What is impressive to me though is that they are able to get this all on Cable via TSN. I remember the outcry that happened when TSN bought the rights many people thought that folks with the bunny-ears in far off places would be left out.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

It may be a Toronto thing. They have always had rather tepid support for Junior Hockey, despite the size of the market. Other Canadian cities are able to provide support for multiple hockey teams and several levels of play despite being significantly smaller.

Oh BS...

Montreal has had the Alouettes fold, had multiple junior hockey teams fold, and yet Toronto gets the reputation of being a bad sports city? What a load of bull.

The GTA and immediately outside it supports an NHL team, 2 AHL teams, an MLB team, MLS team, 2 CFL teams, NLL team, 3 OHL teams and the largest minor hockey league in the world. And the fact that their oldest professional football franchise in the world and oldest professional sports franchise to retain the same name, that has been absolutely terrible for half a decade, gets "only" 23,000+ people means it's a "Toronto thing"? Name one other Canadian city that supports that many sports teams and leagues.

Get that crap out of here and don't talk about things you don't understand.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by osmo

My bet that Toronto numbers during the regular season mirror NFL numbers. They Grey Cup I believe is top 1-5 TV events every year in Canada. What is impressive to me though is that they are able to get this all on Cable via TSN. I remember the outcry that happened when TSN bought the rights many people thought that folks with the bunny-ears in far off places would be left out.

I thought the game was one of the worst Grey Cup games ever, especially after a whole season of really great games. But that's the risk you take in football. The only saving grace was that the Argos played well and looked like worthy champions (it pains me to say that but it's true).

The league needs to get TSN to take it up a notch. I like the halftime guys and the announcers are fine, but the camerawork wasn't great and, while I like Doug Flutie, having the announcers chat with him through most of the third quarter of the Grey Cup is not appropriate. It detracted from the intensity of the game.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I thought the game was one of the worst Grey Cup games ever, especially after a whole season of really great games. But that's the risk you take in football. The only saving grace was that the Argos played well and looked like worthy champions (it pains me to say that but it's true).

The league needs to get TSN to take it up a notch. I like the halftime guys and the announcers are fine, but the camerawork wasn't great and, while I like Doug Flutie, having the announcers chat with him through most of the third quarter of the Grey Cup is not appropriate. It detracted from the intensity of the game.

I am glad I am not the only one whom noticed this. TSN did a No Frills telecast of the game and it was bloody obvious. They knew people would watch and the CFL produced the heavy parts of the telecast (halftime). The on-air talent is great - TSN's football on-air is top-notch and IMO way better then the musical chair act they have with Hockey. I don't like that blonde sideline reporter at all, but Farhan Lalji is always great at doing his job. TSN needed help in the behind the scenes production of it all I must say as the he game itself appeared to be low-budget and annoying to watch at times.

The top tier of Sports presentations in the Country are IMO: The Olympics, Memorial Cup, World Juniors, and NHL Playoff Hockey (FIFA produces the World Cup 100% in house, all CBC has to do is build a set and fly some people over). You watch any of those broadcasts regardless of the network and you see what Canadian Sports television is capable of when the aren't being stingy and cheap.

They Grey Cup on Sunday was nearly as bad as a Raptors Telecast - Dis-jointed and cheap. But this has been the norm of TSN with Grey Cups, the salvation is that we have been treated to quality games on the field that masked TSN's cheapness and poor quality with their telecasts.

I compare all TSN produced stuff to their Hockey they throw the kitchen sink at the Hockey and produce top quality stuff.. They throw a lot of Cameras at the games, have smooth transitions, good sound, and they throw in money for the glamour and fluff shuts from in the game and around the host City.

Canadian Television can get away with it. Big events will attract viewers and dollars for Advertisements regardless. In America you have to have a package to attract both as there is just way more stuff (sports or not) for Advertisers to toss money at. ESPN even with no 'real' competitors has to produce quality stuff to squeeze as much AD revenue as possible.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by osmo

My bet that Toronto numbers during the regular season mirror NFL numbers.

There are no published Toronto-specific, regular-season numbers for either the CFL or the NFL.

For what it is worth, however, here are the most recent national, regular-season numbers for the CFL versus the NFL and NBA. You can draw your own conclusions:


OCTOBER 26 - OCTOBER 31

CFL

TOR-SSK, Oct 27, TSN: 1.026 million
BC-CGY, Oct 26, TSN: 701, 000
WPG-HAM, Oct 28, TSN: 672, 000
EDM-MTL, Oct 28, TSN: 546, 000

NFL

NO-DEN, Oct 28, TSN: 339, 000
SF-ARZ, Oct 29, TSN: 396, 000

NBA (Season Opener)

IND-TOR, Oct 31, TSN: 346, 000

All numbers are BBM Canada 2+

Source


NOVEMBER 1 - NOVEMBER 6

CFL

HAM-TOR, Nov 1, TSN: 769, 000
CGY-EDM, Nov 2, TSN: 725, 000
MTL-WPG, Nov 2, TSN: 642, 000
SSK-BC, Nov 3, TSN: 828, 000

NFL

KC-SD, Nov 1, SN: 213, 000
DAL-ATL, Nov 4, TSN: 577, 000
PHI-NO, Nov 5, TSN: 580, 000

NBA

TOR-BRK, Nov 3 SN: 185, 000
TOR-OKC, Nov 6, TSN: 91, 000

All numbers BBM Canada 2+

Source