Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[eternallyme]

I agree that they should NOT spend the $33M to build the Baseline-Norice segment, instead improve the bus lanes on Woodroffe. $33M to save 1-2 minutes per trip is not worth it especially since it would be throw-away in the future.

[Cre47]

Or plug the rest of the gap in one shot - hopefully the earliest as possible before the LRT opens. This will save more than the one or two. Much like the Western segment gap west of Queensway Station

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Or plug the rest of the gap in one shot - hopefully the earliest as possible before the LRT opens. This will save more than the one or two. Much like the Western segment gap west of Queensway Station

They had time to review the "tunnel vs. surface" three times in 20 years for the Queensway/Pinecrest; maybe it's time to build it before the cost keeps going up.

[J.OT13]

Jon Willing's live stream of council meeting;

Us reporters covered all the bases in our post-meeting scrum with the mayor. LRT, casino, provincial Liberal leadership race, sinkhole....it was quite the buffet of questions and answers. Nothing necessarily meaty. Watson says he hasn't decided yet if he'll support a provincial Liberal leadership candidate; no real update on the casino issue, although he or his chief of staff expect to meet with the OLG soon; and, he expects to get his first briefing on the LRT bids in the coming weeks and he wants a decision made by the end of December

[White Pine]

CBC says that the recommended bid will be released Dec 5.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/sto...light-rail-bid-announced-december-5.html

[J.OT13]

http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/newsroo...awa-light-rail-transit-project-showcase/

Think that when the Rideau Centre shows off the boards, they will also reveal the expansion plans and connections to the subway.

[Richard Eade]

Without the Ogilvie Building in the way, it will be easier to build that Rideau OLRT Station. But I'm sure that didn't factor into any of the decisions.

[rakerman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/en/newsroo...awa-light-rail-transit-project-showcase/

Think that when the Rideau Centre shows off the boards, they will also reveal the expansion plans and connections to the subway.

Since they didn't post a map (and then as a bonus took away the text list of locations and replaced it with an image with no alt tag) here's

a map of the consultation locations

downloadable table of the consultation locations (File->Download)

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Without the Ogilvie Building in the way, it will be easier to build that Rideau OLRT Station. But I'm sure that didn't factor into any of the decisions.

One almost hopes that it did. At least it would demonstrate some kind of ability to coördinate things.

[Aylmer]

So what exactly will be displayed in the boards? Designs of the stations or just specifications?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

So what exactly will be displayed in the boards? Designs of the stations or just specifications?

I figure it will feature pretty much all of the relevant information for the Citizens of Ottawa. Here is what I am expecting;

-Winning Bid;
-Price;
-Construction schedule
-Station configuration and designs;
-Rolling Stock (although when the bidders were announced, only one consortium had a train manufacturer (Bombardier with Vinci), but I figure the other bidders found a manufacturing partner, otherwise their bid would be massively flawed;
-Connection to nearby buildings.


What will likely not be there are the names for Downtown East/West stations and the system itself. There will likely be some sort of city wide vote or competition to choose these, and possibly to select a colour scheme for the trains (like Montreal).

[J.OT13]

Before you all read this article, let me be clear that I think the move of Rideau Station to East of the canal was the right move to better serve the new Market/Rideau condos and to provide easier access to the station.

With the Rideau Centre being the central transfer point for all urban transit, we need as many portals as possible on Rideau Street to prevent people traffic jams, with the old diagonal under the canal plan, we only had one entrance on Rideau (food court) and a possible second on the conceptual Union Plaza where no transit users originate and so everyone would have to cross the street to gain access, and so would have seen little usage).

But anyway, it seems another unmentioned reason to move the Rideau Subway station was to get the NCC's big nose out of the City’s business;

NCC requested light-rail design changes in lead-up to station move


OTTAWA — The body representing the federal government in light-rail negotiations demanded costly changes to a station near the Rideau Canal in the months leading up to the city’s decision to move it off federal land, newly disclosed records show.

The city originally planned an entrance for Rideau Station that would deliver riders on the yet-to-be-constructed transit line to area landmarks such as the National War Memorial through a link to the National Arts Centre.

However, that changed earlier this year when Mayor Jim Watson announced a surprise decision to move the station to the east side of the canal, with an entrance located closer to the Rideau Centre shopping mall.

The National Capital Commission, a Crown corporation handling negotiations involving federal land on behalf of the federal government, requested several changes to the station’s design prior to that decision.

It said the city would either have to meet its design standards or else risk not having the approval it would need from the federal government to build the station.

“The City must prepare a landscape plan for the comprehensive reinstatement of the ‘triangle’ to the NCC’s specifications and the NCC’s approval,” reads one of the documents titled “Rideau West Entrance” and dated June 13, 2011.

“This implementation, including all costs, will be assumed by the City of Ottawa and this will be a condition of the federal land use approval.”

It appeared the two sides were unable to reach an agreement on where the entrance should be located, according to the documents.

The NCC wanted it as close as possible to Freiman Lane, the thoroughfare that extends to the canal once Queen Street reaches Elgin Street just north of the NAC. The city, by contrast, seemed to prefer that it be located further north.

The Citizen obtained the documents under the Access to Information Act.

City of Ottawa spokesman Michael FitzPatrick, in an emailed response to questions about the negotiations with the NCC, did not directly address the role the NCC’s requests played in the city’s decision to move the station.

The city made the move mainly because the light-rail line would better serve more riders if the station was farther east, he wrote.

The moved station would “add 6,000 additional residents and employees from communities in the ByWard Market, Lowertown and Sandy Hill that were not previously covered by the OLRT project within walking distance of the station,” wrote FitzPatrick.

The decision sparked an uproar when the city announced it in February of this year.

Two area MPs, New Democrat Paul Dewar and Liberal Mauril Bélanger, penned an open letter in May calling on the mayor to move it back to the west side of the Canal.

Businesses on Elgin Street felt the rail line would now be skipping over one of the busiest commercial districts in the city, since the next closest station was several blocks to the west. The owners of the nearby Lord Elgin Hotel, Jeff and Chris Gillin, even offered to put up $2 million of their own money to keep the station where it was.


The NCC also expressed disappointment with the decision. Chair Russell Mills, in a letter to the editor published in the Citizen in April, called on the city to choose the best station location rather than the cheapest.

Mayor Watson said moving the station farther east would save the city $50 million. FitzPatrick declined to release figures, blacked out in the documents, that estimate the cost of implementing the requests from the NCC.

The federal government has contributed $600 million to the $2.1-billion project that will see 12.5 kilometres of light rail constructed between Westboro and Blair Road, with a 2.5-kilometre tunnel and three stations running through downtown.

The NCC respected the city’s decision to move the station, but did not offer any regrets for the way the negotiations went.

“Federal lands are here for the enjoyment of all Canadians, residents and visitors alike to the National Capital Region,” said Fred Gaspar, the NCC’s director of federal transportation co-ordination and federal approvals, in an interview.

“In working with all proponents, not just the city, it’s the exact same approach and that is to make sure that they are well informed at the outset of their proposal as to what are the perspectives that we bring to bear and the priorities that we have in reviewing the project.”

Other concerns detailed in the documents include a set of trees close to the NAC, preservation of views to the Rideau Canal and supporting “passive open space uses, public art, interpretation, events and programs, and open air access to the Canal level from Confederation Boulevard.”

The documents reflected a perspective from NCC staff that the city should return the area to a condition that was close to what it was before construction, said Gaspar.

The moved station ended discussions with the NCC about the Freiman Lane entrance, FitzPatrick noted. However the two sides are still negotiating regarding the placement and design of five of the 13 stations planned for the rail line.

The documents raise questions about the role negotiations between the NCC and the city played in the eventual decision to move the station. The city began holding closed-door talks with the property owner that would eventually have the station entrance on its land earlier this year.

However, those negotiations became totally hidden from public view when the two sides reached a confidentiality agreement sometime before Christmas, Ivan Boulva, Cadillac Fairview’s vice-president of development, said in April of this year.

The decision to make the agreement confidential led to questions in local media about whether the company had offered the city a financial incentive to move the station. Both the city and Cadillac Fairview could not answer that question because of the agreement.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/requested+l...ges+lead+station+move/7597218/story.html

[Dado]

I just can't read that much into it, really.

The way I see it, the City - as usual - wanted to cheap out and build the entrance to Rideau Station as close to the station and as far from anything else as possible. The NCC wanted it closer to the NAC.

From an urban design and planning perspective, on this one, I'm with the NCC. Their proposed location is better than the City's.


That said, the main problem is one that I and many others have been pointing out for a long time: we're a station too few. That's another consequence of cheaping out, though part of the blame for that can also be levelled at the provincial and federal governments for failing to come up with a full third of the project costs.

Frankly I still think that if we're not going to do a tunnel right the first time, that we not build a tunnel at this time. Put the line on the surface on Albert, give it the full complement of stations and use any savings to build a longer line (like to Lincoln Fields). In the meantime, revisit the planning for the tunnel and actually design it properly and take advantage of any opportunities as they present themselves over the coming years to build bits and pieces of it so that when the time comes to build it in earnest it will be fairly straight forward.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Dado

I just can't read that much into it, really.

The way I see it, the City - as usual - wanted to cheap out and build the entrance to Rideau Station as close to the station and as far from anything else as possible. The NCC wanted it closer to the NAC.

From an urban design and planning perspective, on this one, I'm with the NCC. Their proposed location is better than the City's.


That said, the main problem is one that I and many others have been pointing out for a long time: we're a station too few. That's another consequence of cheaping out, though part of the blame for that can also be levelled at the provincial and federal governments for failing to come up with a full third of the project costs.

Frankly I still think that if we're not going to do a tunnel right the first time, that we not build a tunnel at this time. Put the line on the surface on Albert, give it the full complement of stations and use any savings to build a longer line (like to Lincoln Fields). In the meantime, revisit the planning for the tunnel and actually design it properly and take advantage of any opportunities as they present themselves over the coming years to build bits and pieces of it so that when the time comes to build it in earnest it will be fairly straight forward.

I think that the City's location is better than the NCC, but I agree that we might have benefited from a 4th downtown station.

But I also do not think that the current plan is fatally flawed and we should build as it is currently planned.

Next week we will get to see the winning proponent’s solutions to the station placements and possible connection to Confederation Square and hopefully they have come up with a good overall plan both in technical and esthetical terms.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by Dado

I just can't read that much into it, really.

The way I see it, the City - as usual - wanted to cheap out and build the entrance to Rideau Station as close to the station and as far from anything else as possible. The NCC wanted it closer to the NAC.

From an urban design and planning perspective, on this one, I'm with the NCC. Their proposed location is better than the City's.


That said, the main problem is one that I and many others have been pointing out for a long time: we're a station too few. That's another consequence of cheaping out, though part of the blame for that can also be levelled at the provincial and federal governments for failing to come up with a full third of the project costs.

Frankly I still think that if we're not going to do a tunnel right the first time, that we not build a tunnel at this time. Put the line on the surface on Albert, give it the full complement of stations and use any savings to build a longer line (like to Lincoln Fields). In the meantime, revisit the planning for the tunnel and actually design it properly and take advantage of any opportunities as they present themselves over the coming years to build bits and pieces of it so that when the time comes to build it in earnest it will be fairly straight forward.

Much thought and visionary planning has to be directed to the fact that more and more residential and commercial tall buildings are being built and will continue to be built south of Laurier West and that more and more potential transit users will originate over time much further away than the presently planned tunnel route.

Intensification has to be accommodated with rapid transit. That's a no-brainer. Putting the line on the surface at Albert for now, which is also closer to City Hall and the Provincial Court House, makes more sense. In time, the presently planned tunnel route will be obsolete because there will be less and less transit users along its route.

Will the residents of the Merit, SOHO Lisgar and Tribeca walk to Rideau and Nicholas or to Queen and O'Connor? Humm..!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Much thought and visionary planning has to be directed to the fact that more and more residential and commercial tall buildings are being built and will continue to be built south of Laurier West and that more and more potential transit users will originate over time much further away than the presently planned tunnel route.

Intensification has to be accommodated with rapid transit. That's a no-brainer. Putting the line on the surface at Albert for now, which is also closer to City Hall and the Provincial Court House, makes more sense. In time, the presently planned tunnel route will be obsolete because there will be less and less transit users along its route.

Will the residents of the Merit, SOHO Lisgar and Tribeca walk to Rideau and Nicholas or to Queen and O'Connor? Humm..!

The major advantage with the presently planned route is the catchment of the Rideau/Market area that will always have one of the highest riderships in the city.

And although Queen could be considered as possibly a bit too North, we have to remember why it was chosen; the tunnel can be kept much closer to the surface; one of the reasons the previous "cross country" route turned under buildings past Kent was to avoid deep underground utilities like the Bell Switching station, effecting both Albert and Slater. And having the tunnel under Laurier would have been too far south, serving mostly residential where the people will be walking North to their jobs as opposed to taking the subway.

And although I use to think that the CBD would eventually extend further South once demand warrants, it does not seem likely with the current condo boom between Gloucester and Lisgar. Future office space will likely be along the rail route at Tunney's, Bayview and St-Laurent stations.

And as for the idea that the Queen Street route will one day be obsolete because of a reduction of transit riders; that’s not possible, we have millions of square feet of office space and thousands of condo units on it now and the numbers will continue increasing in the next decade or two with Cathedral Hill, Broccolini and Claridge projects on Lyon, Place de Ville's Podium building and Phase III (Kent at Queen), the Re and many possible redevelopments like the 4 buildings on the same block as PdV III.

And as for surface rail on Albert; we cancelled the N/S LRT mainly because of the mess that surface LRT would have caused, and now we would have lost millions in inflation costs to build the 2006 plan (surface LRT) and 7 years in planning for a tunnel, that although not perfect, is far superior than any other plan since the 1960s Hammer report.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Much thought and visionary planning has to be directed to the fact that more and more residential and commercial tall buildings are being built and will continue to be built south of Laurier West and that more and more potential transit users will originate over time much further away than the presently planned tunnel route.

Intensification has to be accommodated with rapid transit. That's a no-brainer. Putting the line on the surface at Albert for now, which is also closer to City Hall and the Provincial Court House, makes more sense. In time, the presently planned tunnel route will be obsolete because there will be less and less transit users along its route.

Will the residents of the Merit, SOHO Lisgar and Tribeca walk to Rideau and Nicholas or to Queen and O'Connor? Humm..!

I'm of the opinion that these residents will walk there, but likely day to day not to take transit, but to get to their offices. In terms of jobs near transit, the downtown dominates, so there isn't really all that much concern on my part as to whether these residents will take transit so much as whether they will drive to work.

If they are paying such a premium to live downtown, I think they're largely walking or cycling to work if they work downtown.

The relatively small number of potential transit trips for downtown residents to our few rapid transit oriented employment nodes should not be a primary consideration.

What's more important is getting commuters that will be (minorly) inconvenienced by their loss of express bus to use LRT to get to work from their homes outside the greenbelt.

[lrt's friend]

A big agreement to what gjhall is saying.

We are losing sight of the primary purpose of the subway. To move people from the suburbs to downtown and back. Those who live downtown are not going to use the subway very much. They will be more inclined to use surface transit with more frequent stops, if they are not walking to their destination.

Part of the reason why the provincial government did not give the full one third funding on the subway, which also influenced the funding by the feds as well, was because we cancelled the previous project that the province supported. This is spilled milk now but we blew $100 million on that cancellation and we blew some possible additional funding that might have come our way if our City Council had not been so contrary to the province in 2006.

We are where we are and we cannot go backwards, so we are stuck with an imperfect tunnel project with stations that might not be properly located. Let's just hope that the few stations located in downtwon will be able to handle peak loads. It is a good thing it won't be open for a July 1, 2017 celebration. Mind you, OC Transpo will probably fail miserably that day with no tunnel and no Transitways.

[J.OT13]

About the lack of stations, how many people use each Downtown station it Canada's Big 3 (Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver)? And then take into consideration the number of jobs and residents (although as previously mentioned, Downtown residents aren’t the main riders) in each of these Downtowns as compared to Ottawa.

From my estimations, each station's ridership (Downtown) will beat out Edmonton by a mile, will come close to Vancouver (but our platforms will be 70 meters longer, and initial trains 40 meters longer). And when compared to Montreal and Toronto, individual station ridership won't even come close.

Furthermore, we will never reach the same Downtown density as these other big cities mainly because of the height restrictions, so do would it really have been worth it to build that fourth subway station at Confederation Square?

Besides, between Bronson and Elgin, one will never be more than about 300 meters from a subway entrance, and in the CBD, never more than 250 meters from a portal. And when you think about it, from the west side of Elgin, it’s not much tougher to walk to the World Exchange than it is to waltz up to the North side of the NAC. And as for sidewalk capacity, a few underground connections to nearby office towers will alleviate some of that pressure.

[lrt's friend]

I think the point is that we are making 100 year decisions, so we better do it right now. But it really doesn't make any difference what we say, because the decisions have already been made.