Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[go_leafs_go02]

Looks like the Province is going to be pushing the new Massey Tunnel quite hard in the next little bit.

They're planning an Open House/Consultation Session with the public NEXT week Saturday already, they have a website, that says construction could be complete by 2018 at the LATEST.

Port Mann's wrapping up, the focus seems to be going right over to the Massey Tunnel.

http://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel/

[Metro-One]

Oh please happen! Unlike the Pattullo this is a project that could get off the ground with little local resistance.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Oh please happen! Unlike the Pattullo this is a project that could get off the ground with little local resistance.

...until tolls come up.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

says construction could be complete by 2018 at the LATEST.

2013 - Select Preferred Option;
20..?- Decision to Proceed;
1 Year - Environmental Assessment;
2 Years - Procurement;
5 Years - Construction;

So the earliest is 2021. More likely by 2025.
Sorry, but don't want the NDP (if they become guvmint) to make a decision. That would likely be a mickey mouse band-aid again.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

2013 - Select Preferred Option;
20..?- Decision to Proceed;
1 Year - Environmental Assessment;
2 Years - Procurement;
5 Years - Construction;

So the earliest is 2021. More likely by 2025.
Sorry, but don't want the NDP (if they become guvmint) to make a decision. That would likely be a mickey mouse band-aid again.

This tells me that the structure could take up to 2018 to complete, depending on when the "decision to proceed" takes place.

[Klazu]

I hope the replacement will be a twin tunnel having 4 lanes to each direction. That should be future proof for decades to come. I would also see it fit to toll the tunnel until it has paid for itself. Just my 2c.

[hollywoodnorth]

can I get a ........ wait for it now people...


GO CHRISTY GO!!!!


??? anyone?

[Spork]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

can I get a ........ wait for it now people...


GO CHRISTY GO!!!!


??? anyone?

Only if you are asking her to go away.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

2013 - Select Preferred Option;
20..?- Decision to Proceed;
1 Year - Environmental Assessment;
2 Years - Procurement;
5 Years - Construction;

So the earliest is 2021. More likely by 2025.
Sorry, but don't want the NDP (if they become guvmint) to make a decision. That would likely be a mickey mouse band-aid again.

Dunno... they seemed to do a good job with the M-Line. If anything it was slightly overbuilt for the time period... but in the long run, great value for money.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Dunno... they seemed to do a good job with the M-Line. If anything it was slightly overbuilt for the time period... but in the long run, great value for money.

The NDP built the cheapest sections of the T-line, and left all of the costly or controversial sections for future governments to pay for. I'm not sure how good a job that was.

I am still steamed about the NDP's handling of the Island Highway all these years later. The budget was way inflated for what we got, and paid for union wages instead of interchanges. Thanks for that!

The money lost on the fast ferries could have paid for so many things that we instead got 10-15 years later at higher prices... the fast ferries money could have paid for any of the following:

- the new convention centre 10 years earlier...
- or the BC Place refurbishment 10 years earlier...
- the Canada Line 10 years earlier... (or the Evergreen line!)
- or the SFPR 15 years earlier...
- or the Sea to Sky project 10 years earlier...
- or the Olympics venues budget...
- or most of the Gateway project 15 years earlier...
- or a replacement Massey Tunnel 20 years earlier!

Good job on capital projects, NDP!

[Echowinds]

The fast ferry overrun is vastly overstated. It's not like the Liberals didn't have projects that cost way more than they begin with. For instance, the new convention center is a nice building that is well used, but it also cost 900 million dollars - 400 million dollars more than the budget. The total cost of the fast ferries were "only" $450 million in comparison. It's just that the Liberals tend to generally have a meaningful product after overruns which mitigate the public outrage, in addition to them better at hiding costs from auditors. The SFPR got the intersection hammer just like the island highway, albeit in a miniature form.

The whole idea behind the fast ferries isn't completely bad, it's just that the execution was handled really poorly. It would have been a decent project if the ships actually worked, since its 3 ships that BC ferries needed and most of that money is re-invested in the BC economy. If it worked as intended it might even restart the BC shipbuilding industry, which in addition to the new federal navy contract would have create a pretty good foundation. An expensive gamble that the NDP lost.

Did the NDP messed up? Hell yeah. Doesn't mean they will be perpetual capital project failures though. The M-Line might have been relatively low-hanging fruit, but the party got little good will out of its completion as it was at the time going through rather low-density suburbs and had low ridership. The took quite a bit of flak for that, despite it being "easy" to build.

I mean, BC still has no means to find funding for the Broadway Line and the Evergreen Line took forever to get going, NDP or not.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

...until tolls come up.

I think that something of this size and cost has to have tolls. Yer don't get nuffink' fer nuffink'

Originally Posted by Klazu

I hope the replacement will be a twin tunnel having 4 lanes to each direction. That should be future proof for decades to come. I would also see it fit to toll the tunnel until it has paid for itself. Just my 2c.

Agreed (just a penny for my thoughts )

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Echowinds

The fast ferry overrun is vastly overstated. It's not like the Liberals didn't have projects that cost way more than they begin with. For instance, the new convention center is a nice building that is well used, but it also cost 900 million dollars - 400 million dollars more than the budget. The total cost of the fast ferries were "only" $450 million in comparison.

The problem with the fast ferries wasn't that they were overbudget, it's that they were useless. USELESS.

They couldn't be sold for scrap metal...

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The problem with the fast ferries wasn't that they were overbudget, it's that they were useless. USELESS.

^this.

we have no infrastructure to show for the fast ferry efforts.

i am not sure if we were able to kick start an aluminum shipbuilding industry, and i am unsure about what happened to all the workers trained to work with aluminum. correct me if i'm wrong, but i'd imagine they would have left BC to viable industrial centres.

[Pinion]

The fast ferries were a disaster but let's not spread lies. They were sold and still in use in the U.A.E.

Also Seaspan just scored a $35 billion shipbuilding contract and are about to hire 4,000 people, so the industry's far from dead here.

[Gordon]

The issues with the fast ferries were that they caused damage to shore structures along the route and there were also issues with the amoun nt o log debris in the water causing problems with the intakes.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Pinion

The fast ferries were a disaster but let's not spread lies. They were sold and still in use in the U.A.E.

We, the people who paid for them, spent $440 million ($450 to build them less $10 million revenue from their sale) and have nothing to show for it. At least we got something to show for the $400 million overage on the convention centre...

We're used to projects going over budget, but the idea of spending that much money on nothing is a huge, huge affront that taxpayers of the period are never going to forget.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Pinion

The fast ferries were a disaster but let's not spread lies. They were sold and still in use in the U.A.E.

Also Seaspan just scored a $35 billion shipbuilding contract and are about to hire 4,000 people, so the industry's far from dead here.

I'm no expert, but WRT seaspan's federal contract, IIRC that's dealing with regular steel fabrication with a fixed price contract.

One goal of the fast ferries program was to cultivate a high tech aluminum ship fabrication industry, with aluminum being much harder to work with.

Representatives of the Auditor General's office also advised the committee that, when agreements were signed, they left a great deal of the risk in the hands of CFI. In particular, because aluminum fast ferry construction was new to British Columbia, shipyards would not agree to fixed-price contracts for vessel fabrication. As a result, CFI was forced to enter cost-plus contracts, whereby shipyards were to be paid for work actually done, rather than assuming the risk of labour costs exceeding a price specified in the contract. In addition, "time and materials" contracts were entered into with contractors providing outfitting for the first vessel (piping, plumbing, electrical work, and the like). These contracts required CFI to pay for all work done and all materials used. However, the Auditor General's report notes that because detailed engineering drawings were not completed when contracts were signed, CFI was unable to accurately determine the amount of work that would be required. As a result, there were significant overruns in labour costs for the first vessel, relating primarily to aluminum fabrication and outfitting of the first vessel.

http://www.leg.bc.ca/cmt/36thParl/cmt12/2000/36-4-report12.htm#Project

[WarrenC12]

Some highlights from wikipedia:

Due to various oversights by the government, BC Ferries, design bureaus, and the shipyards, the cost of the program more than doubled from $210 million ($70 million/vessel) to almost $460 million ($150 million/vessel) and final delivery was almost 3 years behind schedule

I'm not sure where you got the $10m figure, I haven't seen that anywhere.

[Pinion]

They were sold for $19.4 million, which is sad, but it's logical to believe the Liberal government didn't try very hard to find the best price. Especially since they made sure to dock them in a high visibility location on Burrard inlet for years so that everyone who went downtown could be reminded of them.