Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I don't think those arguing this have stepped foot into Surrey in the last 10 years.

Just an FYI, the vast majority of new developments in Surrey are more dense per acre than anything along Broadway. The thing about Broadway is you have a peak density right along Broadway itself. A lot of buildings in a few stretches around Burrard, Granville, Oak, and Cambie. But you go 1 block either direction and you hit low density houses instantly..

Please, I don't think you've stepped foot into Vancouver in the last 10 years.

I don't even know where to start. You're cherry-picking localized areas in Surrey and comparing them to supposedly "low-density" areas of Vancouver, which are in fact anything but low-density. Those neighbourhoods off Broadway are some of the most dense areas in Metro Vancouver, and that doesn't even include employment density (which is arguably more important when it comes to transit).

You also compare new developments in Surrey to existing ones in Vancouver (which again are very dense to begin with). Virtually all new developments in Vancouver are multiple-family units in the form of infills to townhouses to highrises. Why don't you compare a new development in Vancouver to existing single-family sprawl you see everywhere in Surrey?

I can cherry-pick and distort things too. Let's compare Kits 360 (a under-construction midrise condo on Burrard & 7th) to something you'd typically see on KGB, say an existing strip mall. The former is infinitely denser because the latter has 0 density. That makes KGB low in density right?

Anyways this is getting far-fetched. Do yourself a favour and walk along 8th and 10th Avenue in the area of those stretches you mentioned. Don't give me that "low density houses" crap because I don't know who you're fooling.

The only merit to your post was yes, there are a lot of buildings along Broadway. The thing about peak density being along Broadway? That's not exactly true. The fact is in many blocks along Broadway there are 0 density; they are exclusively retail and office buildings. Employment density is not accounted for. It is the residential areas off Broadway that make the area so dense, and that's excluding employment density.

If you look at a density map of cities around the world like London or Tokyo, the central areas (you know, areas where all the subway lines converge) have extremely low densities (at least relative to its surrounding neighbourhoods). The reason being these areas are occupied by office towers and retail. On paper the density of these central areas is low but the actual fact is these areas are extremely populated with people.

In the same light, the Broadway corridor doesn't even have a relatively low population density to begin with and yet it is the second highest employment centre in the metro region after downtown. So please, don't bother comparing density of neighbourhoods in Surrey to the Broadway corridor. If it can't compare when considering residential density, it certainly can't compare once you add in employment density.

[twoNeurons]

I think it's safe to say that far more would get rid of a car or two if high speed transit came to the corridor. Just saying. There would be very few places in the city that would not be within 30 minutes from the Broadway corridor.

[Metro-One]

I really, really wish the included an extension of the M-Line to Cambie and Boradway as part of the Evergreen Line project.

If a Surrey extension is to be done before the full BRoadway extension, hopefully this section will be added to that project.

[OhioGuy]

Broadway corridor faces challenges

At least 100,000 commuters ride buses on the Broadway corridor daily, with riders commonly getting passed by multiple express buses before catching a ride. With the rapid-transit Evergreen Line from the Tri-Cities due to deliver 25-percent additional riders like Richtscheid into the already choked valve of Broadway and Commercial Station in 2016, planners fear the Broadway corridor will face the transit equivalent of a heart attack.

After a speech to the Vancouver Board of Trade Tuesday, TransLink CEO Ian Jarvis said rapid transit on Broadway is obviously a key regional priority.

"The challenge is how is a fair way to pay for it," Jarvis said. "There is only one pocket. It is the people that use it, taxpayers, and businesses."

Meanwhile, at Commercial and Broadway Station at 12: 45 p.m. on Tuesday, bus-rider George Stanley said he doesn't see much hope for rapid transit in the corridor.

"The Evergreen Line, they haven't even started it after talking for 10 years, and now the mayor of Surrey (Dianne Watts) says that she's next in line (for rapid transit) after that," Stanley said. "So as much as we need rapid transit on Broadway, I don't think it will ever be built."

[squeezied]

Yep, once the Evergreen comes into service it's just going to be that much more apparent that Broadway should be the regional priority for rapid transit which shouldn't be dictated by whichever municipality says they're next in line.

Frankly it's silly to say this municipality had their's so now it's that other municipality's turn. Arbitrary municipal boundaries shouldn't dictate cases for transit funding, especially rapid transit. Rapid transit by its very nature is a regional entity that services riders from multiple municipalities. Therefore it's wrong to say this municipality benefited from having rapid transit, now it's that other municipality's turn to benefit.

That's why I believe Broadway should be next to have rapid transit, not because I'm from Vancouver and I only want Vancouver to benefit, rather from a regional perspective, I think it is the most beneficial to the region, considering half of commuters to the Broadway corridor aren't from Vancouver itself.

end rant.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by squeezied

................

That's why I believe Broadway should be next to have rapid transit, not because I'm from Vancouver and I only want Vancouver to benefit, rather from a regional perspective, I think it is the most beneficial to the region, considering half of commuters to the Broadway corridor aren't from Vancouver itself.

end rant.

.... not a rant. Total common sense, IMO

[usog]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Yep, once the Evergreen comes into service it's just going to be that much more apparent that Broadway should be the regional priority for rapid transit which shouldn't be dictated by whichever municipality says they're next in line.

Frankly it's silly to say this municipality had their's so now it's that other municipality's turn. Arbitrary municipal boundaries shouldn't dictate cases for transit funding, especially rapid transit. Rapid transit by its very nature is a regional entity that services riders from multiple municipalities. Therefore it's wrong to say this municipality benefited from having rapid transit, now it's that other municipality's turn to benefit.

That's why I believe Broadway should be next to have rapid transit, not because I'm from Vancouver and I only want Vancouver to benefit, rather from a regional perspective, I think it is the most beneficial to the region, considering half of commuters to the Broadway corridor aren't from Vancouver itself.

end rant.

Well, I keep saying that a Broadway investment makes sense logically yet politically unsound. But hey, politics are logical right?

[mr.x]

If the SkyTrain extension were completed all the way to UBC by 2020, I wouldn't be surprised if it attained an average of 200,000+ riders per day in its first year. Hell, it might even achieve that today if it were already built. Yet we squabbled over the Evergreen, and we're about to do the same for Surrey...

[Metro-One]

To balance both logic and politics, it would have been nice to have the M-Line extension to UBC built in phases tacked onto other projects.

For example, the Evergreen Line project should have been the Evergreen Line (as is) plus the M-Line extended to Cambie at Broadway (to connect with the Canada Line).

Once the Evergreen Line is done, then Surrey should be thrown a bone in a project that would involve their line / extension & the M-Line being extended further west (maybe to Arbutus).

Then the last piece to UBC would be its own stand alone project.

[usog]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

To balance both logic and politics, it would have been nice to have the M-Line extension to UBC built in phases tacked onto other projects.

For example, the Evergreen Line project should have been the Evergreen Line (as is) plus the M-Line extended to Cambie at Broadway (to connect with the Canada Line).

Once the Evergreen Line is done, then Surrey should be thrown a bone in a project that would involve their line / extension & the M-Line being extended further west (maybe to Arbutus).

Then the last piece to UBC would be its own stand alone project.

How would they sell spending on the next billion dollar project that isn't in Surrey? Especially given the funding incompetence there's no way around prioritizing. I mean, they won't even fund a full B-line for Surrey at this point.

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by usog

Well, I keep saying that a Broadway investment makes sense logically yet politically unsound. But hey, politics are logical right?

The Broadway subway will eventually be built, despite the naysayers. Rapid Transit routes debates...evicting long term tenents in the West End and trailer parks... cyclists running stop signs, all are still in the news as they were in 1981

(In hindsight... Cambie did get rapid transit 28 years later. The serial killer was caught. The air traffic controllers were fired. Buy BCRIC shares or play it safe in a one year GIC at 20% interest rate?)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=iZtlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NowNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4147%2C16946

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by usog

How would they sell spending on the next billion dollar project that isn't in Surrey? Especially given the funding incompetence there's no way around prioritizing. I mean, they won't even fund a full B-line for Surrey at this point.

Thats my point, sections of the Broadway extension should have been built in conjunction with the Evergreen Line and the Surrey extension, therefore all sides would feel like they won.

[nname]

Maybe by this time next year, Delta and Langley Township mayors will get so mad at TransLink when they begin to "optimize" their routes and they'll pull out of TransLink with other SoF municipalities and form their own transit system....

[Dave2]

The city will have an underground system, the only disagreement is over the timing of it.

Art Phillips, 1974...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ni9mAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L4sNAAAAIBAJ&pg=961%2C1368597

[Metro-One]

That is one of the few good things about Vision IMO is that they are fully set on the Broadway corridor being underground (and therefore an extension of the M-Line) not at grade LRT down Broadway.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That is one of the few good things about Vision IMO is that they are fully set on the Broadway corridor being underground (and therefore an extension of the M-Line) not at grade LRT down Broadway.

I was thoroughly surprised and impressed by Vision's Transportation 2040 plan... Have to say that I've warmed up to them lately. And if they seal the deal for Little Mountain and Oakridge, that's more points for them from me.

I still think their plan for the viaducts would be a big mistake, but I suppose you've gotta give and take.

[Metro-One]

Well that is the thing, there are still many things they are doing that I am against (such as the viaducts) but I don't like to play partisan politics so I will give them credit where credit is due, and the Broadway corridor / subway plan is one of them.

[logan5]

"At least 100,000 commuters ride buses on the Broadway corridor daily, with riders commonly getting passed by multiple express buses before catching a ride. With the rapid-transit Evergreen Line from the Tri-Cities due to deliver 25-percent additional riders like Richtscheid into the already choked valve of Broadway and Commercial Station in 2016, planners fear the Broadway corridor will face the transit equivalent of a heart attack."

There must be something quietly being planned. 25 000 more people on the Broadway corridor is past the breaking point. Maybe the straddling bus from China? Not likely, but there has to be something in the works.

Looking at another story from 1974... I can't believe a guy got 2 years in prison for defrauding welfare of 785 dollars. Harsh.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by logan5

There must be something quietly being planned. 25 000 more people on the Broadway corridor is past the breaking point. Maybe the straddling bus from China? Not likely, but there has to be something in the works.

Looking at another story from 1974... I can't believe a guy got 2 years in prison for defrauding welfare of 785 dollars. Harsh.

I think the article's 25% was referring to Commercial-Broadway Station's traffic, not the Broadway Corridor. If that's the case, it would be a 25% increase on Commercial-Broadway's 150,000 daily traffic...that's another 37,500.

To put this in perspective, Evergreen's projected ridership for 2020 is 80,000.

[Dave2]

Originally Posted by logan5

There must be something quietly being planned. 25 000 more people on the Broadway corridor is past the breaking point. Maybe the straddling bus from China? Not likely, but there has to be something in the works.

Looking at another story from 1974... I can't believe a guy got 2 years in prison for defrauding welfare of 785 dollars. Harsh.

In 1952, a 5 dollar robbery resulted in a 3 year sentence... and 14 lashings. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=E5R...IBAJ&dq=lagace%20lashes&pg=3273%2C240440