Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A 40 year service life for a transit vehicle that's as heavily used as these are is a pretty impressive feat and speaks well of how well these vehicles were built.

The experience rehabbing the MkI cars could be used to do a similar rehab of the Scarborough RT cars when they are retired after the 2015 PanAm games. Get them cheap ($1 each + S&H) and after rehabbing, we get extra MkI cars to use for another 15 years.

Or grab them cheap & have more spare parts to keep the MkI cars running. They were built around the same time as the Expo MkI cars.

edit:
It just occurred to me that since Toronto will be replacing everything ICTS-related in order to run the new ALRT trains to Scarborough on the old SRT trackbeds, the tracks, LIM, signalling and operations/management systems should be similar enough to be used for maintaining or expanding SkyTrain lines.

Edit 2:
Scarborough RT has 28 cars, so I wonder if it would be easier to rebuild them into 'trailer' C cars that can be inserted between MKI 'married pairs'

ie: A + 'trailer' C + B

The 'trailer' C car has the electronics &tc to operate the doors & fans, and the LIM motors on the car itself, but the 'smarts' that communicate with OMC are still in the A and B cars. These A and B cars would send signals to the 'trailer' C car when to operate doors &tc.

[federal777]

I wonder, what is the time frame when wider cars will be available?

[nname]

Originally Posted by federal777

I wonder, what is the time frame when wider cars will be available?

Those are never in the plan, at least not until 2041. The line is built with provision of wider car never mean there are plan to use them. The current plan is to use longer trains that fit within the 80m platform at 93s headway.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I wouldn't say that....some LRVs in Europe are far older than 40 years and they are still used regularly. And I'm not talking about touristy trams like you'd see in San Francisco's Market street. Longevity of LRVs is one of the selling points of such a system.



Can you really blame Tom Pendergrast?

Here is a guy from NYC who ended up running what is essentially an extremely inadequate transit organization setup as a scapegoat, whose inadequacy is caused by political infighting for the most silliest of reasons.

And despite is efforts, nothing goes through with the pigheadedness of the likes of Shirley Bond and Derek Corrigan.

So he gets a job offer to move back to his home town, to manage what is essentially one of the best and most renowned transit systems in all of North America, or even the world. Would you refuse such an opportunity if you were in his shoes?

40 years? Thats really stretching it. Which ones in particular?

Yes there are some old trams, but they have also been refurbished and modernized through out their life, atleast the ones I can think of. Specifically the Czech Skoda built T-3's which were built between 1961-1990 and are used all over former eastern block countries still today...but they have all been rebuilt and modernized and only the bodies are original, not to mention that the oldest ones in most cases have since been retired or donated to other countries (lots of them in North Korea that were shipped over before the fall of communism, or I should say temporary step back as the communist party is roaring back in those parts, only 3.7% behind the leading social democrats in the popular vote in last weeks regional election in Czech hehe)...On a side note the T3's are still the most reliable trams in Prague with a 98.6% reliability rating, and thats with plenty of brand new trams runing with them (things just arent built like they used to be).

I do agree though that most LRT vehicels last much longer then actuall buses and can put on well over a million km's before needing a major rebuild...but 40 years...no. (feel free to give me a example and I will correct my self)

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I wouldn't say that....some LRVs in Europe are far older than 40 years and they are still used regularly. And I'm not talking about touristy trams like you'd see in San Francisco's Market street. Longevity of LRVs is one of the selling points of such a system.

I didn't type it out for some reason, but I was referring to the kind of at-grade systems like those typically being deployed in the US lately since that is the kind of thing that Malcolm Johnston et al hark about all the time. People around here have a hard enough time making left turns and lane changes as it is without having to look to see if there is a LRT vehicle in the way.

[queetz@home]

@cornholio, I don't have time to dig but some of them are in Germany. I recall an article how an LRV over there turned 50 or something and still in service, but it was a number of years ago. And yes, they do get refurbished, but so does our the oldest Skytrain cars that people brag about in terms of longevity...

Originally Posted by GeeCee

I didn't type it out for some reason, but I was referring to the kind of at-grade systems like those typically being deployed in the US lately since that is the kind of thing that Malcolm Johnston et al hark about all the time. People around here have a hard enough time making left turns and lane changes as it is without having to look to see if there is a LRT vehicle in the way.

You see...that's the issue here. When radicals like Macolm Johnston and Daryl de la Cruz spout out these half truths and selective data, it gives whatever system they are promoting a bad name.

Those ones deployed in the US tend to be very good at what they are intended too, but thanks to those radicals, those that want a specific kind of layout (I wouldn't even say Bombardier Skytrain, because what people here *REALLY* want is grade separated, regardless of manufacturer) find ways to bash.

So the end result is one form of rail transit gets stigmatized by a group of people, then the bickering starts, hence the delays in implementation due to the most stupid reasons. I'm pretty sure surface rail is good enough for, say Surrey Rapid Transit, or even Broadway, but a lot only *want* Skytrain or none and never keep an open mind on really good alternative solutions.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by federal777

I wonder, what is the time frame when wider cars will be available?

Wider cars are available right now.

The question is when will Translink buy them?

The narrow MkI cars are getting a refurb to add 15 years to their life, so it will be around 2030 before they might be scrapped. Unless they get another life-extending refurb in 2030.

When the MkI cars are scrapped, the platform edges can be shaved back to make room for the wider cars.

And other issues like clearance in the tunnels need to be resolved before wider cars are run.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The narrow MkI cars are getting a refurb to add 15 years to their life, so it will be around 2030 before they might be scrapped. Unless they get another life-extending refurb in 2030.

According to the plan, by the time the 150 MkI car retires in ~2026 (assuming all at once), we'll have around 156-216 MkII cars assigned just for Expo/Millennium line, plus at least 56-112 more for Evergreen Line. What are we going to do with them?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

@cornholio, I don't have time to dig but some of them are in Germany. I recall an article how an LRV over there turned 50 or something and still in service, but it was a number of years ago. And yes, they do get refurbished, but so does our the oldest Skytrain cars that people brag about in terms of longevity...



You see...that's the issue here. When radicals like Macolm Johnston and Daryl de la Cruz spout out these half truths and selective data, it gives whatever system they are promoting a bad name.

Those ones deployed in the US tend to be very good at what they are intended too, but thanks to those radicals, those that want a specific kind of layout (I wouldn't even say Bombardier Skytrain, because what people here *REALLY* want is grade separated, regardless of manufacturer) find ways to bash.

So the end result is one form of rail transit gets stigmatized by a group of people, then the bickering starts, hence the delays in implementation due to the most stupid reasons. I'm pretty sure surface rail is good enough for, say Surrey Rapid Transit, or even Broadway, but a lot only *want* Skytrain or none and never keep an open mind on really good alternative solutions.

I will agree with you regarding a few of the route proposals in Surrey, but Broadway is without a doubt a grade separated corridor, and for so many logical reasons (less transfers, use of existing OMCs, etc...) extension of the M-Line is the only sane choice for Broadway.

[Zassk]

This article is a few weeks old, but I just noticed it... picture through the link

Originally Posted by Richmond Review

New bridge connects Canada Line to Aberdeen

"A new 30-foot walkway was installed at the Aberdeen station of the Canada Line Tuesday morning."
...
"Early Tuesday morning, a special 60-tonne crane was brought in to attach the cantilevered bridge, which is connected to the still-under-construction Aberdeen Square retail and office complex on one side, and the Aberdeen station of the Canada Line on the other.

Technically, the bridge isn’t physically connected to the Canada Line station.

That’s because, explained site superintendent Tyler Brown, the two structures on opposite sides of the span must be able to move independently in the event of an earthquake."
...
“We are paying for the faregates, and visitors won’t have a long walk to get to Aberdeen Centre,” Leung said.

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/171258381.html

[officedweller]

Thanks for posting.
It has a cable stay so that it hangs off the shopping centre building.
It doesn't look 30 ft long in the pic (i.e. bridging a 30 ft gap) - maybe it's 30 ft "wide" (i.e. a corridor 30 ft across).

My guess is that it'll be used more by exitting shoppers rather than those entering the mall, since it only connects to the northbound platform. I wonder how many shoppers originate from the south?
Presumably the faregates will be located inside the Aberdeen Expansion (and not on the bridge or platform) (i.e. so as to reduce queueing / stress loads on the bridge)

[GeeCee]

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/artic...cal-mayors-on-how-translink-raises-money

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Metro Vancouver mayors are giving the provincial government until February 28, 2013 to come up with a plan for a funding model to help TransLink.

That was decided through a motion put forward by Vancouver mayor Gregor Robertson along with nixing any possible cuts planned for bus and Skytrain services and no increases to your property taxes as a funding option.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

@cornholio, I don't have time to dig but some of them are in Germany. I recall an article how an LRV over there turned 50 or something and still in service, but it was a number of years ago. And yes, they do get refurbished, but so does our the oldest Skytrain cars that people brag about in terms of longevity...



You see...that's the issue here. When radicals like Macolm Johnston and Daryl de la Cruz spout out these half truths and selective data, it gives whatever system they are promoting a bad name.

Those ones deployed in the US tend to be very good at what they are intended too, but thanks to those radicals, those that want a specific kind of layout (I wouldn't even say Bombardier Skytrain, because what people here *REALLY* want is grade separated, regardless of manufacturer) find ways to bash.

So the end result is one form of rail transit gets stigmatized by a group of people, then the bickering starts, hence the delays in implementation due to the most stupid reasons. I'm pretty sure surface rail is good enough for, say Surrey Rapid Transit, or even Broadway, but a lot only *want* Skytrain or none and never keep an open mind on really good alternative solutions.

Well in that case I am almost certain the trams you are talking about in Germany are in eastern Germany and former Skoda T3's as they shipped many of those out there. Looks like they shipped 194 to Chemnitz between 1967-88 so the oldest ones would be 45 years old today if their still in operation(and as far as I can see their still runing T3's, although modernized with new engines, traction control etc...). They also shipped 171 to Schwerin in Eastern German as well but starting in 73...

But as I said those were maybe the best trams ever built anywhere, over 14,000 built and many still running to this day and as far as Prauge goes the most reliable tram there (correct my self from earlier...98.9% reliability rating, that is a insanely good number and probably virtually impossible to beat with anything else) while competing against brand new trams (obviously modernized but the key parts used are the same, just rebuilt).


But we agree that LRT vehicles are actually pretty long lasting in many cases, although the T3's are a exception, especially given the amount of use and conditions they have been subject to, so I would not expect as long a service life for new LRT vehicles as those.

Skytrain im sure is pretty good too though, it puts on so many km's and those original mk1's look pretty solid and reliable still...im sure that if money was a serious issue they could keep running those for another 20 years without a rebuild (obviously I guess patch job fixes, and cannibalizing some of them for parts when needed).

[whatnext]

Richmond is pressuring Translink to add public washrooms at Canada Line stations. It's ridiculous how backward North America is in that regard.

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/174859561.html

[Waders]

30-foot walkway? That must have included the walkway length inside the new building.

Pictures I took on Sunday Oct 14.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Richmond is pressuring Translink to add public washrooms at Canada Line stations. It's ridiculous how backward North America is in that regard.

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/174859561.html

I agree...although there are so many free alternatives around, there is a fast food restaurant always within walking distance. BUT public washrooms should be a given, staff them with the unemployed and that will keep them safer. Also if you deploy them at stations you can use these new cards to pay for access, will make it much more palatable for people to pay the 25-50 cents or what ever, for access and some toilet paper. Its not roccket science, just a place to take a a piss or dump when you run out of options.

[red-paladin]

They should be inside the fair paid zones, so that only transit users can use them. That would keep them cleaner and make sure less druggies are loitering in them.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Richmond is pressuring Translink to add public washrooms at Canada Line stations. It's ridiculous how backward North America is in that regard.

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/174859561.html

Why urge TransLink? The city can't take that responsibility themselves? Unless they want to integrate it, perhaps, with the station structure.
EDIT: With red-paladin's suggestion in mind, that makes sense.

^^^ The thing about those German LRVs is that I'm not convinced that the amount of time they have been running makes them in any way special. By the time the Mk Is will have had 40 years of service at between 80-90km/h, they would have been far more stressed than these trams/LRVs. These city trams may not have passed 50 km/h in service. This isn't an on-street running limitation - this is physical and within the used components. The T3s have a maximum speed of between 55 and 65 km/h depending on the model. The Mk Is do 90km/h in catch-up mode. Average speed 80km/h.... 60% faster than 50km/h. 45 years is 12.5% more time than 40 years. Forget the amount of revenue service hours because that's not what matters. The Mk I's revenue service kms travelled far outnumber those of the slower tram/LRV solutions (even if those have been operating for longer) since the Mk Is can travel greater distance in less time. Faster movement/friction/handling should already cause higher component stress and devaluation on its own (in particular the Mk Is already accelerate and brake faster than most other trains due to LIM). The Mk Is would have been able to do what they would do, with just one major refit - whereas the T3s may have been through several. That's unbeatable.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Richmond is pressuring Translink to add public washrooms at Canada Line stations. It's ridiculous how backward North America is in that regard.

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/174859561.html

North America is backward? Try Paris. Huge Métro network with hundreds of stations, and about three or four of them have restroom facilities. Most don't, not even major stations like Opéra ..... and yes, it stinks. Literally.

[xd_1771]

I'm looking for a particular value. Does anyone know the annual service hours dedicated to SkyTrain (or can come up with them) - or the operating cost per revenue service hour?

EDIT: Found it