The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Radster]

Originally Posted by Cre47

J- Does the western Limbour part of the 66/87 before following Cannes Ave (route 64/80) before making a huge detour to Greber (route 76/83) before ending at La Gappe

I used to take the 80, when I lived in Cote d'Azur, and I must say that the new route J is a huge FAIL! Why detour to Greber and backtrack to La Gappe? Just get on the 50 at Laverendrye like the 80 did, and get off at the first exit at La Gappe, even in gridlock AM traffic, this will take 1-2 minutes, versus 10 minutes doing the Greber detour.

As it stands, with the proposed route J, it will take 10 minutes longer to get downtown, and thats not including transferring to a Rapibus line.

I hope STO tweaks these local routes, because with what they are proposing, everyone's trips to/from work during peak hours will take longer with the new Rapibus system than they did with the status quo express system. This will basically make the Rapibus a FAIL.

I've said this many times over the past few years: they should have built diesel right rail, it could have been operational by now, and it would have cost less than the Rapibus bondoogle, as the tracks were already there. Now STO is trying to sugar coat the Rapibus (which has already been delayed a few times, and an eastern chunk postponed due to cost overrruns) with a new promo campaign, but when one looks at the details, its full of flaws and results in the commute to/from work being a bigger hassle which will take more time than it does right now. Good job STO, at least the bus companies are satisfied with the increased sales of new busses. I wonder which crooks in STO and City of Gatineau pocketed some kickbacks when they voted to stick with bus technology following their phony half-assed study 5-6 years ago comparing light rail to bus technology for that corridor. (they did not include diesel train technology in that study, it was only bus vs electric LRT, and bus technology ended up winning)

[Capital Shaun]

Looks like Gatineau is implementing a train system that uses buses.

It's easier to convince passengers to transfer when the mode changes. (bus/LRT/subway) Now all the current express bus riders will have to transfer to another bus to do the same trip to downtown Hull and Ottawa.

Gatineau should have twined the existing track and implemented LRT of some kind to at least to downtown Hull. Instead they'll do just like Ottawa and start planning to convert to rail in 30 years.

[S-Man]

Yes, they are making the same mistakes as Ottawa did leading up to 1983.

Imagine the foresight of opening a diesel busway system hot on the heels on two worldwide gas crises in less than a decade, and after Edmonton had already opened an electric LRT. Great planning.

So, if I'm correct, the Rapibus is expected to open late next year after beginning construction in late 2009?? Four years work on a corridor that already existed?

I only ask because I have a temporary roommate who is only living on my couch because she can't get back to Gatineau at night after leaving her job in the south-west end. Ad to think that by the end of the 1890s, industrious pioneers had already opened up lengthy electric railways on both sides of the river, powered by cheap, green power.

We've come a long way, baby!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Yes, they are making the same mistakes as Ottawa did leading up to 1983.

Imagine the foresight of opening a diesel busway system hot on the heels on two worldwide gas crises in less than a decade, and after Edmonton had already opened an electric LRT. Great planning.

So, if I'm correct, the Rapibus is expected to open late next year after beginning construction in late 2009?? Four years work on a corridor that already existed?

I think construction only really began in the summer of 2010.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

Looks like Gatineau is implementing a train system that uses buses.

It's easier to convince passengers to transfer when the mode changes. (bus/LRT/subway) Now all the current express bus riders will have to transfer to another bus to do the same trip to downtown Hull and Ottawa.

Gatineau should have twined the existing track and implemented LRT of some kind to at least to downtown Hull. Instead they'll do just like Ottawa and start planning to convert to rail in 30 years.

Originally Posted by S-Man

Yes, they are making the same mistakes as Ottawa did leading up to 1983.

Imagine the foresight of opening a diesel busway system hot on the heels on two worldwide gas crises in less than a decade, and after Edmonton had already opened an electric LRT. Great planning.

So, if I'm correct, the Rapibus is expected to open late next year after beginning construction in late 2009?? Four years work on a corridor that already existed?

I only ask because I have a temporary roommate who is only living on my couch because she can't get back to Gatineau at night after leaving her job in the south-west end. Ad to think that by the end of the 1890s, industrious pioneers had already opened up lengthy electric railways on both sides of the river, powered by cheap, green power.

We've come a long way, baby!

Pretty much.

Or as I like to put it...

"Rapid Transit Planning in Ottawa and Gatineau: Dumb & Dumber"


And don't forget the best part: when we were planning the NS LRT, Gatineau was planning the Rapibus. Extending the NS LRT to Gatineau was ruled out since it wouldn't connect to anything while creating the Rapibus as a Rapitrain was ruled out since it too would have nothing to connect to on our side. Oh, and they both used the same consultants, too.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dado

Pretty much.

Or as I like to put it...

"Rapid Transit Planning in Ottawa and Gatineau: Dumb & Dumber"

Where's that damn study, anyway?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Where's that damn study, anyway?

Big mouth Baird said it was coming out in October; well, we're half way thru. We'll see if he was lying as usual or if he actually gave us some truthful information for once.

[Cre47]

I also the problems of the local routes west of Greber. Route F can do the Greber portion stating at La Cite Station and still end at the proposed terminus. Route D can do the small area where they planned the F to start and could just deadhead on Paiement after. Since we already have routes E and 33 serving de l'Hopital.

Not sure why B, C and M can't be merged together. With the 3 three routes merges, they can run every 30 minutes middays as well. Route Q can do the rest of Maloney as it is the case right now.

Route J should instead end at Freeman as it is right now and do the east portion of the Touraine area while route L can do the western portion of Touraine while route K can use Highway 50 than the Rapibus to La Cite instead.

It would be best if All local routes west of Paiement should at least serves the Promenades station or the current stop.

Thould also increase route I's frequency during peak too. Lot of riders along the Greber corridor and just have a bus every 30 minutes even with the Rapibus and that it will no longer crosses into Ottawa is no where good enough. It will be jam-packed for sure

[S-Man]

We'll see if he was lying as usual or if he actually gave us some truthful information for once.

Baird will introduce the study as soon (or as late) as the NCC actually produces it. He only has anything to do with the NCC because by having a minister attached to that group, it makes it look like the NCC isn't a stand-alone body devoted to self-interest and stagnancy, which it more or less is.

As was stated before, I'm pretty sure the Foreign Affairs minister spends a lot more time on the Syria and Libya file than the NCC Interprovincial Transit Study file.

[J.OT13]

Baird answering the question about the final report release date;

a final draft of the strategy report is currently being reviewed by the study partners, and is anticipated to be released in fall 2012

He's doing a good job protecting his rear end by using the word "anticipated" and being vague by calling on "ifall 2012".

[Cre47]

Quite a bit of criticism regarding the local neighborhoods routes proposed once the Rapibus will be in operation mostly because of the eastern part of the city the express in Templeton and the interzone routes in Buckingham and Masson-Angers, which the routes will instead end at Labrosse Station. The big problem is that the frequency of those routes will be much lower than the current frequencies which goes directly to Ottawa. I know some of those routes will be split within the neighborhoods though should have at least not chop number of trips in half.

Another problem which concerns mostly the western part of the Gatineau sector, is routes that will do some lengthy detours before reaching the Rapibus.

Anyways a petition is in circulation apparently demanding the STO to significantly revise the service proposals.

[J.OT13]

I would thin a simple solution would be to keep the express buses for those areas until the expansion of the Rapibus. Another solution would be to have some of the Rapibus lines start in Buckingham, similarly like what they use to do with Ottawa's 95 about 5 years ago; most 95s terminated at Baseline, but they had a few continuing to Fallowfield.

[eternallyme]

OC Transpo is apparently looking into fare gates instead of the honour system for the LRT.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/10/17/oc-transpo-investigates-pricey-fare-gates-for-lrt

The question mark is whether the cost is worth the benefit? It all depends on how much fare evasion is expected. Typically about 5 to 8% of riders of such systems fail to pay their fare, which faregates would eliminate. However, it would increase the capital costs for larger stations, which would require a large number of faregates (smaller stations such as Cyrville and Train would likely be able to fit their faregates in the mezzanine with little additional cost). Would the increased revenue be enough to override the increased capital costs?

[Aylmer]

I guess after enough time...

But I just don't like how it restricts mobility and it just doesn't feel as nice as when you can just walk into a station and hop onto a train. I think we should just stay with the honour system.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you police the system well, you can get fare evasion lower than that without fare gates. The social stigma of being caught covers most.

The trouble I see is that the busiest stations will be the most expensive to build fare gates at, mining out extra square footage. You have to deter lots of fare evasion to make back the cost.

Look at Vancouver, they are still in the middle of trying to do fare gates years after it was announced. The costs are enormous when you still need just as many staff around to maintain order and what not.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

OC Transpo is apparently looking into fare gates instead of the honour system for the LRT.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/10/17/oc-transpo-investigates-pricey-fare-gates-for-lrt

The question mark is whether the cost is worth the benefit? It all depends on how much fare evasion is expected. Typically about 5 to 8% of riders of such systems fail to pay their fare, which faregates would eliminate. However, it would increase the capital costs for larger stations, which would require a large number of faregates (smaller stations such as Cyrville and Train would likely be able to fit their faregates in the mezzanine with little additional cost). Would the increased revenue be enough to override the increased capital costs?

I thought it was part of the ORT plan, sort of a standard issue. In the station plans, they show us turstils and "paid areas".

So is it worth procuring for the stations? Well, certainly not for any of the bus stations and maybe not for the O-Train.

But there might be some benifits for the ORT. I would think that without fair gates, it would be easier for someone to hitch a free ride; even with OC Transpo employees walking around checking people's passes, one would have a 120 meter long train to circulate in to escape the Transpo cops as oposed to an 60 foot bus where POP is more manageable. Furthermore, by having everyone scan their card to enter the system, we can get an accurate number on the system's ridership. Finnaly, although I don't know the price of turnstils, we would be better off buying them now for 13 stations as opposed to deciding to switch to a fare gate system in 10-20 years when the system might include a few dozen stations. We have seen OC Transpo switch fair systems twice in recent years from the simple boxes to the electronic ticket machine and now Presto, so maybe we should implement a complete system as soon as possible on the ORT.

Now Edmonton doese not have turnstiles (or at least not in 2011) according to a Metro article. They were also questioning whether or not to implement them.

http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/33385/turnstiles-would-cost-more-than-they-would-save-report/

But note that the Edmonton LRT has a lower ridership than the ORT is estimated too have. Furthermore, although the curent line can be considered rapid transit, it also resembles classic LRT, with trains running on level crossings across streets, and their future plans are actualy LRT traveling on the streets.

But what we are building here in Ottawa is more of a metro type system, with total grade seperation through out. I'm not sure why the city is using light rail technology since I have never seen it used quite this way; 150 meter (downtown platforms) lrt trains are, as far as I know, unheard of. Same with complete grade seperation. Nonetheless, there are advantages with this system, with light rail being able to take tigher curves and they can also go up and down steeper hills than other technologies. And with these 150 meter trains, which are only 8 feet shorter than Montreal's platforms, we can achieve a capacity very close to Montreal and Toronto's (note that Montreal has 2 metro lines through downtown and they are looking at extending the Yellow line to McGill station).

In conclusion, I don't believe, and again I could be wrong, I have ever seen a true rapid transit system without turnstils. But I do know for sure that Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver all have them.

[DarkArconio]

Berlin's u-bahn and s-bahn, which I would say has the best rapid transit system I've ever experienced, runs on the honour system with random checks.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

Berlin's u-bahn and s-bahn, which I would say has the best rapid transit system I've ever experienced, runs on the honour system with random checks.

OK, turns out Berlin's transit system runs on the honor system, good to know.

As for Vancouver, I was wrong, kind of. They didn't have a turnstile system, but in 2010, they decided they would start implementing them.

Here is a CBC news story from July 2011 about the implementation of far gates for the Skytrain. It is estimated it will cost 100 million for the gates at 49 stations and 70 million for a fair card system (maybe 32 million for Presto wasn't too bad). Compare that to the 15 million Edmonton would have paid for 13 stations, and they apparently didn't have a smart card system in October 2011.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...9/bc-translink-faregates-turnstyles.html

Here is Edmonton again;

http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/33385/turnstiles-would-cost-more-than-they-would-save-report/

And one on Berlin's honor system, but for some reason, a guy from Vancouver comments that the Skytrain doese not have a fair gate system, and this comment was made in December 2011, 5 months after the construction of the SkyTrain gates;

http://theurbangeographer.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/honour-system-anarchy/

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Cre47

Anyways a petition is in circulation apparently demanding the STO to significantly revise the service proposals.

Saw it at one of the STO stops on Wellington.

[Richard Eade]

I wonder if fare evasion is really a big problem in Ottawa. The last time I checked, the biggest offender groups were from the two universities and the college. With the introduction of the U-Pass at the universities and (probably) a similar program being implemented at the college, I expect that there will likely be a pretty low rate of fare evasion on the OLRT.

I think that the bigger question will be how the PRESTO card will be integrated.