Calgary Public Transit II

[RyLucky]

The city might have to buy 200+ properties on Centre Street (b/w Beddington Dr & Tr, and b/w 64th & 18th Aves). How much will that property cost, like 100-200 million?

Then they could build something like the WestLRT @45th St.

[andasen]

I wonder if running it up 1st W elevated would work. Doesn't compromise transfers at all considering how close the streets are. Could swing over between 56th and 64th then come down to grade with minimal property aquisition, traffic disruption. NIMBY issues with noise and sight lines into backyards not to mention the problems of big infrastructure next to small houses. Similar advantages to cut and cover up that with less long term NIMBY concerns but more expensive.

[MalcolmTucker]

If cut and cover going up a block over, or in an alley if a reliable corridor exists would be preferable. The alley would involve 20 or so houses, what looks like an elementary school and a strip mall, plus station sites after 17th Ave until 64th. Likely have to bore or tunnel shield up to that point. But in my mind that is true of most options that serve Centre St.

[DizzyEdge]

I had been wondering how Toronto could have afforded to bore the Bloor line without disturbing the residential neighbourhood, but then I realized that they actually did cut and cover and cleverly covered their tracks (no pun intended)

All of the subway line is either narrow parks, parking lots, housing/buildings substantially newer than the 1890s-early 1900s houses on the rest of the block.

Also the line starts at the alley separating Bloor-facing retail from the residential north, and is about 2 houses wide.




























They must have bored under this and the building behind it which is also turn of the century.

[DizzyEdge]

I feel like this isn't the kind of station that you mesh into a community:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijames/2489615078/

Unless it incorporates Centre Street facing retail, then it doesn't really have to I suppose.




Otherwise this is much easier to plop this just about on any residential street:


http://translinkphotos.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=42217179

[DizzyEdge]

like so

[Bigtime]

Markusoff with an article today that we may not see 4 car LRT's until 2015 due to the green trip funding issues.

[Dado]

The idea has been mentioned before and it would save vast sums of money: run the line at grade up 4th Street West. Just takeover the entire street north of 16th Ave (the street grid is a little too disjointed south of 16th to work readily, and the line still has to climb anyway, so it would be tunnelled to this point). Very little expropriation required and the alignment makes for a far simpler connection with the SE LRT under 2nd Street.


The basic economics problem with Centre Street is that it is highly unlikely the City will ever recoup its costs (through increased development) if it goes elevated or tunnelled, and somehow I doubt the option of running the tracks at grade on Centre Street as it now exists will ever be that popular due to the constrained space. If, to get a wider corridor, the City has to expropriate hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of existing retail/commercial property that you would actually prefer to see developed more intensively... what's the point? You'll have just removed decades' worth of accumulated commercial development and presence which will have to start all over again on whatever residential properties now find themselves closest to the widened Centre Street corridor. Lots of businesses will just take the pay out and leave rather than go about trying to acquire a few residential properties a block over to reestablish their business.

If you're going to propose mass expropriation, then doing so amongst the residential properties along one of the adjacent streets or laneways would probably fare far better in this regard since you won't be decimating the existing commercial fabric of Centre Street to run the line through.

About the only thing I could see that would work and remain affordable is to convert Centre Street to a transit mall and convert immediately adjacent streets or lanes to general traffic use in a one-way couplet system, expropriating residential properties as needed to make it continuous and wide enough. At least this way the intersections can become a bit less messy and fewer would need grade separation.


I understand the appeal of a Centre Street alignment, but the practical economics of it just aren't that encouraging.

[simster3]

Does anyone know when the Connect system will be up and running? Do you think it will coincide with the launch of the WLRT?

[MalcolmTucker]

The basic economics problem with Centre Street is that it is highly unlikely the City will ever recoup its costs (through increased development) if it goes elevated or tunnelled

The way the property tax system the city will never recoup its costs on any option. That just isn't how it works. (it is different in Ontario I believe, but in Alberta we use the revenue neutral model).

[mersar]

Originally Posted by simster3

Does anyone know when the Connect system will be up and running? Do you think it will coincide with the launch of the WLRT?

Latest someone on cptdb mentioned was early 2013 now. So I wouldn't expect it to be ready for WLRT.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The way the property tax system the city will never recoup its costs on any option. That just isn't how it works. (it is different in Ontario I believe, but in Alberta we use the revenue neutral model).

If it is cut and cover, would the land surface that is reclaimed afterwards not have way more value than what they paid for it?

Purchase houses for $500K-$1M each, cut and cover, but in doing the cover provide a base that can be built up from. Sell those spots after wards, recovering a substantial amount, though having had manage the carrying costs.

[MalcolmTucker]

No, it in no way would get close to cost recovery. At best you will get the marginal cost of additional structural work. Building things is just really expensive compared to cost of land.

[DizzyEdge]

If 4th street was the option chosen why not just cut and cover 4th street itself and not expropriate? Or even do that with centre, temporarily sending the centre st transit down 4th st and edm trail.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, the whole point of not using centre is to prevent a traffic apolcalypse! Also, trunk utilities tend to be under main streets, but I can't say off hand what is under Centre.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Well, the whole point of not using centre is to prevent a traffic apolcalypse!

Would it be any worse than when the centre street bridge was closed? at least these closures have other parallel options.

[MalcolmTucker]

That was 12 years ago now, but not likely too much worse. However, if we can avoid the issue at little cost, why wouldn't we.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That was 12 years ago now, but not likely too much worse. However, if we can avoid the issue at little cost, why wouldn't we.

Well my thought was cut and cover on a road is much less dollars than cut and cover on expropriated private land.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That was 12 years ago now, but not likely too much worse. However, if we can avoid the issue at little cost, why wouldn't we.

If Centre Street stays open south of 12 Ave, or even better 16 Ave, the traffic situation should be better than when the Bridge was closed. It is the Bridge that is the choke point. North of 12 Ave there are enough parallel routes to handle the traffic. It would just require some temporary measures to improve North-South traffic efficiency on some of the side routes.

[Stang]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

If Centre Street stays open south of 12 Ave, or even better 16 Ave, the traffic situation should be better than when the Bridge was closed. It is the Bridge that is the choke point. North of 12 Ave there are enough parallel routes to handle the traffic. It would just require some temporary measures to improve North-South traffic efficiency on some of the side routes.

The temporary lane reversal on Edmonton Trail during the Centre Street bridge work was very efficient, I thought. Having grown up in Beddington, there are quite a few options for North-Central commuters. Centre, 4th (to a point), Deerfoot, and 14th Street.

You certainly can't expect to close one of those without any impact, but with a little bit of thought put into the alternate routes, it could be managed I think.