PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by markson33

I'm waiting to see what the renderings look like. If it is six stories of garage and three stories of apartments then its going to be a dud. It could have potential though, if they decide to go up instead of out.

Generally, its probably a good project for downtown.

100 apartments should require far more than three stories on this parcel.

[markson33]

Aaron, I think you are right, but the floor plate of the garage is going to be pretty big. If the plate is 30,000 SF and the apartments are 800-1000 SF each, you could conceivably fit 25 or so apartments on a floor. They may try to make it as short as possible to eliminate stair towers, etc. The taller you go the more expensive it becomes on a square foot basis.

[BrianTH]

I'm also curious to see the design for the new project. The parcel is an odd shape since it wraps around the Park Building to Fifth. The reporting indicates the parking will be partially below ground. Ultimately, I am guessing it is going to end up similar in scale to the Park Building (so around 15 stories), but depending on the shape of the residential portion and what size units they have in mind, it could be taller or shorter.

[BrianTH]

By the way, I kinda doubt they will be trying to pack in smaller units onto a few big floors, because they will likely be pricing these pretty high, will want decent views to market, and so forth. And that trail has been blazed by projects like Encore on 7th (151 units in 18 stories) and 151 First Side (80 units in 18 stories).

[Austinlee]

Concerning the Saks site; I think that is a great opportunity to build about a 20-30 story residential tower that would be overlooking the $7 million newly renovated Mellon Park, similar to a Rittenhouse Square building. That is the last good remaining parcel that will overlook that great park. I hope Millcraft would scale that project up a bit if they get it. They may be streched thin though as they finance and build The Gardens though.

[BrianTH]

It is easily conceivable the tower could average 5 units or less per floor, putting the planned 100 units at 20+ stories (plus a few more for the retail and garage).

[markson33]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

It is easily conceivable the tower could average 5 units or less per floor, putting the planned 100 units at 20+ stories (plus a few more for the retail and garage).

I am expecting that you are right and it will be about the same height as the Park Building, with 10 floors of apts and the rest being garage.

On a different note - Parkway Center Mall is no more! Huzzah!

[BrianTH]

Note that 151 First Side is 82 units in what I believe is 16 residential floors, an average just over 5. With this new project, if they stick to the Oliver side, and provide for some spacing from the Park Building, a tower with floor plates approximately like 151 First Side could be about right.

By the way, at least a few of the parking levels are supposed to be underground.

[themaguffin]

If Parkway Center Mall goes, that would be great - as long as the plan is smart and as long as there's no silly nimby bs like the last proposal for the land near that mall a few years ago.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

You have to remember, it was 30 years ago when it was built. A steel-plate curtain wall was (and still is) pretty unique. Most buildings, particularly of this size, are clad in stone, masonry, or glass. Glass curtain walls (like PPG) were nothing new at all at the time.

I don't think it was ever really known as the Dravo Tower. Dravo Corp was a big industrial conglomerate -- shipbuilding/bridges, machinery, steel pipelines, etc. Some family members worked for the company at their shipyards near McKees Rocks/Neville Island. Dravo built hundreds of those landing craft ships for WWII... the huge types that carried tanks and troops to the beaches with the door on the bow.

Dravo's not around anymore... they became a subsidiary of USSteel like so many other industrial firms and then whatever divisions remained were bought by others. Based on my memory (I was only about 8 or 9, but I remember how exciting it was as a kid going downtown with all the big buildings going up in the early 80s) the tower was always the Mellon Tower, as Dravo was already owned by US Steel when it was being built.

You do have a point. Having solid steel on a building's facade instead of on the interior was cutting edge at the time.

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Concerning the Saks site; I think that is a great opportunity to build about a 20-30 story residential tower that would be overlooking the $7 million newly renovated Mellon Park, similar to a Rittenhouse Square building. That is the last good remaining parcel that will overlook that great park. I hope Millcraft would scale that project up a bit if they get it. They may be streched thin though as they finance and build The Gardens though.

I would love to see Pittsburgh get a 30-story residential building. I certainly think there's a market for it now. I, too, would like to see renderings of this project to see how large it's supposed to be...

[Jonboy1983]

Regarding the Parkway Center Mall, yeah, rumor has it they want to propose a massive 10,000 space parking garage...

Seriously, if anyone has details about this, I want 'em...!! I anticipate some mixed use development, maybe TOD. Isn't there a nearby TOD development going up or about to go up?

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by markson33

Aaron, I think you are right, but the floor plate of the garage is going to be pretty big. If the plate is 30,000 SF and the apartments are 800-1000 SF each, you could conceivably fit 25 or so apartments on a floor. They may try to make it as short as possible to eliminate stair towers, etc. The taller you go the more expensive it becomes on a square foot basis.

Only if you assume that nearly every single square foot of the floor plate is leaseable square footage on the apartment floors. I'm thinking we're probably looking more like 6-8 stories of apartments above the garage/retail...

No way it's going to only be three levels of 25 units per floor, especially considering some of the apartments are likely to be larger than 1000sf...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Minivan Werner]

HOLD ONTO YOUR BUTTS!

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...nding-plans-for-north-shore-site-657272/

A Columbus, Ohio, developer, confident about the demand for space on the North Shore, is expanding a proposed office and retail development next to Stage AE to include a third floor.

. "We feel bullish, and we are going to go ahead and do an extra floor of office."

[themaguffin]

Oh goody, a whole 3 stories. Yeah space is tight and demand is so high that they are going with a bold 3 stories... I guess they want to ensure that the entire N Shore is a vision of wasted opportunity. Instead of being a smaller scale Chicago with buildings book ending a river, we get this.

[Private Dick]

^ I just read that article. I particularly liked this quote...

"We feel bullish, and we are going to go ahead and do an extra floor of office."

Whatever... I guess we shouldn't expect anything too great from any development in a stadium "entertainment district". It seems that in most cities around the country, these areas are pretty chain-y, overpriced, and cookie-cutter. Glad to see plans are progressing though. I'm more interested in the space between Equitable and Delmonte bldgs. on the riverfront, and the lots east of the 279 overpass. I think west of the overpass is pretty much a lost cause... as the Steelers are going to do what is in their best interest, period... and that is keeping it low and spacious.

And I think it's a very good thing that Toby Keith's bar is going to be located there rather than in the Southside Works... much better fit for the Steelers demographic.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

HOLD ONTO YOUR BUTTS!

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...nding-plans-for-north-shore-site-657272/

Interesting. I thought the Toby Keith bar was going to be only one story. Personally, I'd like to see something a little taller than 3 stories, but it's headed in the right direction. How tall are the DelMontie and fmr Equitable buildings, 6 or 7 stories? Other buildings in that range would be swell. I wonder if residential development will occur there soon, especially with the North Shore Connector operational now. Wasn't there planned residential use as part of the master plan? Or was it all to be office/restaurant/retail/hotel use?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

HOLD ONTO YOUR BUTTS!

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...nding-plans-for-north-shore-site-657272/

Whoooooaaaaa, slow down Continental. Let's not get TOO crazy. Geez, we get a $500+ million dollar subway extension to their front door and they go bananas over there on the north shore with a 3rd fucking floor!

[markson33]

I would still like to see some residential over on the North Shore. The original plan had a couple of pretty cool looking apt/condo buildings on the lot close to PNC Park.

I have seen a plan for Parkway Center that included a huge double deck garage. If they build it, it would be doomed from day one.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by markson33

I would still like to see some residential over on the North Shore. The original plan had a couple of pretty cool looking apt/condo buildings on the lot close to PNC Park.

I have seen a plan for Parkway Center that included a huge double deck garage. If they build it, it would be doomed from day one.

Are you kidding me? My post earlier about that was pure sarcasm. Wow, people in Western PA really are that narrow-minded and short-sighted when it comes to planning and land development/redevelopment proposals.

Needs to be mixed use high-density office/retail/residential several stories in height. I'd say in the 8 to 10 story range...

Markson and Austinlee, you're right on about the scale of development necessary from the North Shore. Now with the T extension operational, let's build something that reflects the direct accessibility to the subway/light rail system. The North Side is now connected to Downtown via rail transportation. Development demand is likely to jump over the next decade or so, so we need to plan to accomodate that growth. Adding another floor for office use, yeah that will not cut it. We need to see some CBD-type development over here. Delmontie and Equitable went up prior to the breaking ground of the T extension. We need to see development of at least that scale if not more so. I guess nobody fully understands the whole concept of the impacts transit, particularly rail transit, can have on surrounding land uses and land development.

See also: the impact of Phoenix's light rail system, or even closer to home yet, what about the proposal for Mt. Lebanon? Attention City of Pittsburgh bureaucrats and land planning professionals affiliated with Pittsburgh development, I say stick to your forte, whatever that might be; urban planning surely as hell is not it!

[haimon]

I know nobody mentioned it, and don't know if its feasible economically or would provide any major benefit, but an additional light rail extention from south hills junction over to the vacinity of parkway center mall should be feasible from an economic standpoint. It could go down to 51 and cross over following the parkway?