Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Hed Kandi

I can't make it, but if you go tell them that I'm all in favour of tearing these things down.

Ditto

Originally Posted by wrenegade

I will most likely be there tomorrow. It is Urban Design Panel though, the citizenry can make comments to the panel but not ask questions. And comments to the panel don't necessarily elicit a response. Regardless, I am interested in staff's presentation and comments from the panel.

Are there any traffic engineers on the UDP? I can't see any reason for them to not recommend dismantling the viaducts.

[Hed Kandi]

..

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by logan5

Ditto



Are there any traffic engineers on the UDP? I can't see any reason for them to not recommend dismantling the viaducts.

It would appear there are 2 engineers on the panel. One is a LEED/HVAC Mech Eng. The other is a Civil with some background in traffic.

[wrenegade]

I've been sitting through the UDP for the past hour or so, I'll try to mention a couple things now while the panel is still making comments. It was interesting that after it was mentioned by staff that the cost of maintaining the viaducts was increasing there were no questions from the panel that asked what the cost of this whole plan would be. Something that I have always been concerned about is the livability of 850,000 sf of residential space next to the Murrin Substation. And what is the value of this land if the idea is that its sale may finance this project? Can the density be achieved with the Olympic village view cones?

Also, while there have been studies as to how the traffic going east is handled, I didn't hear projections of what the numbers would be on Georgia street westbound. Because of Dunsmuir starting at Beatty I don't see a lot of people diverting from Georgia at Beatty unless there are going north so I see dunsmuir traffic greatly reduced. Which is fine I suppose, except that Georgia will be very busy and I'm sure there will be spillover onto Hastings and Pender.

Staff did mention that the option of bringing dunsmuir down to Pacific at Abbot but that would result in an 8% grade, which was deemed unacceptable. Upon hearing that I immediately think of the proposed bike connection. If an 8% grade is unacceptable for cars, what is the limit for bikes? Will there have to be a scissor element introduced? What does that do to acquilinis land and how will it tie into the dead-ended part of dunsmuir at Rogers arena? And how will that affect travel times? Would it not be similar just to bring the bike route to the new georgia and then direct traffic down Beatty?

I still see so many unresolved issues. The plan needs a lot more detailed work and I think that this work needs to be done before council moves forward with the plan. I'll digest the panels comments and add more later. It's rather difficult to type do much on an iPhone.

[hollywoodnorth]

thanks for the update

[Alex Mackinnon]

Aiya, I though I was the only one kicking about. We need to have an SSP meetup. I was there as well, but have no idea what most of you all look like.

Anyways, I'll elaborate more on what the UDP said.

Firstly, they pretty much all thought removing the viaducts was a great idea. Surprise!

Secondly, they all pretty much all thought as-is the park was going to be pretty dead. The general thought was that there was nothing that really meant that the surroundings would interact with the park and it would just be another Andy Livingston park.

Thirdly, almost everyone said was of the opinion that there's nothing tying down the Eastern end of Georgia. One fellow went as far as saying that he laid down in front of a bulldozer to save the roundhouse, but wouldn't get off his couch to save science world.

Fourthly, the new "Superoad" was called rather suburban by some of the architects. Having such a wide road with the street car would make for a very wide and apparently suburban feeling road.


New info from the city:

The city staff also had a bit better answer about the cost of moving the skytrain guideway. $50-100M depending on who they asked to do it apparently.

They completely skipped traffic flow, but when asked by an engineer they opined that the Evergreen line ought to cause enough traffic to drop to make their model work.

The streetcar also was given a little blurb, despite Vision seemingly killing it. The street car will run South of Pacific until just after Georgia St in it's own ROW. West of Georgia it will run on the street. The cross over will be a fun intersection.

[dreambrother808]

Has Vision "killed" the streetcar or have they just not made it a current priority?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Secondly, they all pretty much all thought as-is the park was going to be pretty dead. The general thought was that there was nothing that really meant that the surroundings would interact with the park and it would just be another Andy Livingston park.

Andy Livingston park is packed every weekend and many evenings with numerous soccer games. I don't understand why this is "pretty dead".

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

The city staff also had a bit better answer about the cost of moving the skytrain guideway. $50-100M depending on who they asked to do it apparently.

Bullllllllllllllshit. I'm saying $150M, easy.

Thanks for the updates.

[p78hub]

So it's pretty much a done deal now? Not saying I'm not surprised, but I'm still pissed about the bullshit that Vision is allowed to get away with.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

They completely skipped traffic flow, but when asked by an engineer they opined that the Evergreen line ought to cause enough traffic to drop to make their model work.

Was the projected traffic reduction from the Evergreen Line part of the City's traffic projections in the latest "super road" proposal? I recall that Halcrow addressed it as part of the timeline for the removal of the viaducts, but I thought the current proposal was based on existing traffic flows.

Those current projections seemed pretty grim, but what happens if the Evergreen Line is delayed or doesn't have the effect they hope it will have? I'd be interested in learning more about their model.

[s211]

Models, models and more models. Just smoke and mirrors while Vision sells shinola.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Has Vision "killed" the streetcar or have they just not made it a current priority?

When you heap ridicule on something, yeah that's pretty much killing it.

But hey, instead of spending 100 million and getting a streetcar, now we can spend $100 million and lose infrastructure.

PS. the part about the proposed park being "dead space" is code for the inevitable outcome, "lively" condos will be built here - another gift to developers courtesy of Vision.

[Sir Conga]

I don't know if this is what the comments are speaking to, but I agree that there would be a surplus of park-space in the current plans. I don't prefer condos, and I don't think park-space should be reduced immensely, but with Trillium Fields operational a few blocks away, maybe Livingstone could due with a small adjustment/repurposing. Just a thought I've always had with the plans.

[ryanmaccdn]

Maybe someone could bring up the Sun news article about Vancouver just slightly being behind Los Angeles when it comes to traffic congestion and travel times.

I know the aspect of the data is somewhat flawed but it still needs to be discussed things are getting alittle ridiculous in terms of traffic time increases.

The last thing we should be considering is tearing down the Viaducts... jeeze.

Hell Gateway only adds one extra lane to highway 1... everything else was added to accommodate that for free flow.

There is some major density going into this city in the next few years and not the same is to be said for increasing transit/roads.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by ryanmaccdn

There is some major density going into this city in the next few years and not the same is to be said for increasing transit/roads.

The Evergreen line is a pretty major piece of infrastructure that ties into downtown. The viaducts are designed to handle freeway like capacity, yet they only feed city streets with far less capacity. They are a 1 km stretch that allow you to hurry up and wait.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by ryanmaccdn

Maybe someone could bring up the Sun news article about Vancouver just slightly being behind Los Angeles when it comes to traffic congestion and travel times.

It's worth noting that the methodology of the TomTom Congestion Index is about the relative difference in travel times between peak times and non-peak times. The actual travel times are not factored into their index. Therefore it is of dubious quality. It's like comparing big city annual growth numbers to a small, growing city. The latter may post a spectacular percentage change year-over-year, but the former may have added an order of magnitude more people in the same period of time whilst posting an anemic low single-digit annual growth rate.

Regarding the TomTom Congestion Index, here's an example:

City A has an average commuter travelling 10 kilometres in 30 minutes during off peak hours and 60 minutes during peak periods, for a 100% TomTom Congestion Index rating.

City B has an average commuter travelling 40 kilometres in 60 minutes during off peak hours and 90 minutes during peak periods, for a 50% TomTom Congestion Index rating.

For the purposes of the TomTom Congestion Index, City A has far worse congestion than City B. However the average commuter in City A still has a commute that is only one-quarter the distance of an average commuter in City B, which saves them gas, wear and tear on their vehicles, and reduces the time that they are in jeopardy of a collision by virtue of being on the road. During times of peak congestion the average commuter in City A is on the road for 30 fewer minutes than the average commuter in City B during their respective times of peak congestion and this is an actual time savings.

A further factor that is not reflected in the index is the duration of each city's peak period of congestion. By virtue of City A's tightly knit street network of arterial roads, shorter commuting distances, and less time spent travelling by each commuter, the total peak period of congestion is likely lower than what is faced by the average commuter in City B, which has a more widely spaced street network that offers greater carrying capacity per road but imparts lower accessibility on properties and poorer network connectivity.

One final thought, the TomTom Congestion Index pulls its data from people who have TomTom GPS units. This, by definition, means that the sample used to calculate the index does not have the statistical validity of a random sample. This is because all of the data comes from those who have opted-in, creating selection bias. This is a highly specious source of data and the TomTom Congestion Index cannot be classified as a scientific study, though it presented that way by its authors and the media does not have the sophistication to know the difference. The TomTom numbers are opaque and we have no way of knowing the sample size per city, the geographic distribution of participants within the city, and the participants' frequency of use of their GPS units. I would hazard to guess that those who are travelling to and from work each day are unlikely to be using a GPS unit, as opposed to those who are required by their profession to frequently call on addresses with which they are unfamiliar. Such a road user is still affected by congestion and, therefore, may be used as a proxy for measuring the change from peak to off-peak travel times, but they are unlikely to behave in the same manner and travel the same routes as regular commuters, to whom the TomTom Congestion Index aims their findings.

Regarding my position of watching the progress of the Evergreen Line from afar, it's good to watch this thing lumber forward. I'm still unsure how the naming/interlining/Millennium line rerouting will work in practice once the Evergreen Line joins the network, but that's the very definition of a 1st World problem. We'll work something out.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

It's worth noting that the methodology of the TomTom Congestion Index is about the relative difference in travel times between peak times and non-peak times. The actual travel times are not factored into their index. Therefore it is of dubious quality.

That's a very nice description of why this index is so dubious. Kudos!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by logan5

The Evergreen line is a pretty major piece of infrastructure that ties into downtown. The viaducts are designed to handle freeway like capacity, yet they only feed city streets with far less capacity. They are a 1 km stretch that allow you to hurry up and wait.

Which is the primary reason they appear to be 'overkill' to us today. By having the viaducts connect to Prior St, which is a local residential street for Strathcona, they are encouraging traffic congestion in an area not meant for the volumes of traffic it is getting.

However, if you connect the east end of the viaducts to a new Malkin Ave connector and have the other end of Malkin Ave connect to Clark Dr with a new Malkin Ave viaduct over the rail yard, the commuter and truck traffic using the viaducts is relocated away from Strathcona, but still able to get downtown - their desired destination.

The viaducts aren't going to connect to a freeway as envisioned in the 60's and 70's, but their traffic capacity can be better used with the new Malkin Ave connector, while at the same time making Prior St more people-friendly to the Strathcona area residents.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Which is the primary reason they appear to be 'overkill' to us today. By having the viaducts connect to Prior St, which is a local residential street for Strathcona, they are encouraging traffic congestion in an area not meant for the volumes of traffic it is getting.

That's not the overall capacity choke. The capacity choke currently is the intersection of Beatty and Dunsmuir. When they first built the viaducts there was 4 through lanes, 2 right turn lanes, and no left turn lanes due to Beatty being one way. Now it's one de-facto left turn lane, one through lane, and one right turn lane.

The Malkin connector is entirely about redirecting traffic away from Strathcona, not raising the capacity of the entire system. As is, the Georgia Viaduct having outlets at Main St. and Prior should be more capacity than the 3 lanes of Georgia feeding the system.

[Metro-One]

The Georgia viaduct has always done a terrific job of moving traffic out of downtown. I have never felt a "hurry up and wait" scenario existed there. Honestly, all they are going to do is create a traffic jam on Georgia where one does not exist today, retarded to say the least, and their traffic analysis methodologies is just as flawed and biased as the traffic study being discredited a few posts above.

Honestly, does anyone here believe that the Evergreen line is going to reduce traffic enough to downtown to warrant the removal of 5 lanes??? Especially since the goal of the viaducts should be to keep industrial / commercial traffic off the surface streets in the area.

Again, it urks me how much time / energy / attention this entire debacle has sucked out of our local politics, so many other important issues have been pushed aside for this distraction campaign. Disgusts me.

And I can tell you this, the contractor community who builds all of downtown's precious luxury condos is not happy at all with these developments. They see it as a spit in the face by Vision in favour of more luxury condos... Which it is, since all these units were planned to be built anyway with the viaducts in place, creating a really cool, more affordable area, but instead, now we have much higher price condos to be built and less infrastructure to keep the average person moving! Thanks Vision! Go fuck youself!

Sorry, I know swearing makes me look childish and immature, but i am so tired of Vision Vancouver and how out of touch they are with what really keeps our region's economy healthy (such as wanting to ban oil tankers in the Burrard inlet despite the fact that thousands in Metro Vancouver are employed at oil and gas terminals and a refinery that have been using tankers in the Burrard inlet for decades). Honestly, they seem to be wanting to cut off their nose to spite their face.