PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Austinlee]

Pittsburgh has not been alone in the massive shift of hub traffic. Cincinnati, Oakland, CA, St Louis and others have experienced this.

Here's a piece from the NY Times from a couple months ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/busine...e-space-to-rent.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Here's one issue that may be a major cause of PIT's de-hubbing.

One factor, said William S. Swelbar, research engineer at the M.I.T. International Center for Air Transportation, is American carriers’ ongoing rejection of the 50-seat regional jet, as epitomized by Delta’s new pilot agreement, under which it will remove 218 of 343 of these planes from its fleet.

Delta, through its regional partners, is the largest operator of 50-seat aircraft. Airlines are increasingly abandoning these airplanes because of the high cost of jet fuel.

“A large number of airports in the United States today are totally dependent on the 50-seat airplane for access to the air transportation system”

[Johnland]

Originally Posted by markson33

I've never really liked TKA's designs. They use way too much brick/contrete, and very rarely glass or metal. The CCAC Campus, Airport, old UPMC headquarters and Seagate building are all very blaw to look at. Almost communist block like.

The functionality of their designs are pretty good, but the asthetics are stuck in the 60's.

Yeah, I think that is what I've felt about the finishing design. Very taupe and tile like an 80's kitchen. I think the functional layout is good. I always liked how the concourses were arranged and the airmall. Some things were just like "whaat?", like the little escalators that go from the tram exit area down to departures - always seemed like a bottleneck. Also, to this day, there is no cell phone waiting lot, so drivers for arrivals have to circle.

Having lived in Fla. these past 22 years and flown in and out of Pittsburgh all that time, I recall the bursting at the seems of the old airport, the glorious new airport, its growth and and sadly its eventual decline. Meanwhile, Tampa has steadily polished and improved its super convenient airport. The road system around the airport area has been totally re-done, new long term economy garages have been built, cell phone lots, shuttles, landscaping, etc.

[Jonboy1983]

Da-da da da-da DA, dat...

dut, dut dut... da-da da-da, da-da-da-DA da-da da-dat da-dat...

That's supposed to the the Mario Bros theme, in case anyone's wondering...

Yeah, come to think of it, that looks like some brutalist design. Why in the hell didn't I see that when I was 9 freaking years old? AAArrgh!

Anyway, now that that's over... back to the discussion of 51

I thought of doing that. I think US 202 has a similar such alignment in southern Delaware County before crossing over the state line into Delaware. For more of a local reference, I guess you're pointing to Route 51 in Rostraver Township near the Allegheny/Westmoreland County border? The thing is, parts of the corridor might be too narrow, especially in Brentwood, nevermind the existing man-made shlock that's there now. Geographically it might be too narrow; you have steep hillsides on either side which leads right up to people's back yards...

[Jonboy1983]

A note about the Oakland Master Plan, I guess they see BRT as more cost effective as opposed to a cut-and-cover heavy rail/subway line linking Downtown and the East End via Oakland/5th Avenue...

In all tho, I like the overall plans, especially for the Blvd of the Allies and that roundabout. I like how they plan for some parklets and connectivity to some of the trails and expansions of existing trails into the neighborhood...

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

A note about the Oakland Master Plan, I guess they see BRT as more cost effective as opposed to a cut-and-cover heavy rail/subway line linking Downtown and the East End via Oakland/5th Avenue...

In all tho, I like the overall plans, especially for the Blvd of the Allies and that roundabout. I like how they plan for some parklets and connectivity to some of the trails and expansions of existing trails into the neighborhood...

PAT is super into BRT; I highly doubt we'll see any underground contruction in Oakland, even cut & cover in the next 30 yrs.

If you haven't seen them already, forumer Cirrus (from DC) posted two photo threads of Pittsburgh's public transit. He concluded that we have one of the most extensive BRT systems in the US already. He also conluded that our overall system has fundamental inefficiencies which everyone here is probably well aware of. lol

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

PAT is super into BRT; I highly doubt we'll see any underground contruction in Oakland, even cut & cover in the next 30 yrs.

If you haven't seen them already, forumer Cirrus (from DC) posted two photo threads of Pittsburgh's public transit. He concluded that we have one of the most extensive BRT systems in the US already. He also conluded that our overall system has fundamental inefficiencies which everyone here is probably well aware of. lol

They may be "super into BRT" like you say, but I'm just saying that IMO, that's not the best option for connecting Downtown with Oakland.

I am in no way knocking BRT. I think it's great in some parts of the region. In fact, earlier I posted about my vision for Route 51, which includes bus lanes that will function as a bit of an extension of the South Busway. When you're linking two of the largest employment centers in the state, BRT comes up short.

Um, where is this thread, might I ask?

[PGHFan]

Someone already mentioned it, but the maintenance at the airport is not very good. Torn carpets in gate areas, finger-smudged glass on walkways, missing letters in airline names(!), urinals that are often bagged, to name but a few problems. The internal photos make the facility look warmer than it actually is. Katselas does not design great looking buildings and his firm's website is as out-of-date as his buildings.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

They may be "super into BRT" like you say, but I'm just saying that IMO, that's not the best option for connecting Downtown with Oakland.

I am in no way knocking BRT. I think it's great in some parts of the region. In fact, earlier I posted about my vision for Route 51, which includes bus lanes that will function as a bit of an extension of the South Busway. When you're linking two of the largest employment centers in the state, BRT comes up short.

Um, where is this thread, might I ask?

Part 1: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=190297
(The City)

Part 2: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=190322&highlight=pittsburgh+transit
(The transit)

[atlantaguy]

As an outsider please indulge me after reading the last couple of pages, as I have a comment and a question.

First, I really feel for you guys re: the present state of affairs at PIT. I went through there before the pulldown by US on the way to & from Binghamton, and was totally impressed by the layout, the business and the airmall - which was a very new concept at the time. Sadly, the same thing has happened in Cincy and St. Louis. Coming from someone in the industry, please take comfort in the fact that you do have a decently modern and very functional airport with fantastic bones going forward - a lot of places Pittsburgh's size can't say the same.

Secondly, we have just lost our fantastic CEO of MARTA, Beverly Scott - who has been recruited to run the MBTA in Boston. The ONLY finalists for her replacement are Steve Bland of your PAT, and Keith Parker of San Antonio's VIA. Neither of these agencies are even half the size of MARTA, the nations ninth largest agency.

My question is, is this guy qualified to run such a large agency that includes a 48 mile heavy rail system? I know he is probably used to a hostile State government, but do you get ANY State funding at all, or is the situation as ugly as it is here in GA? I am aware that you escaped the draconian service cuts that were supposed to take place last month, but I am totaly ignorant of the details. I just worry that this guy isn't qualified to even be nominated.

Any and all comments and opinions are more than welcome, and thanks in advance guys!

[markson33]

I think its almost impossible to tell what Steve Bland is qualified for. The agency has been cutting for a long time and fighting union issues at the same time. Who knows what he would do if he actually had the opportunity to run a transit agency. He has been put in an impossible situation. None of which is to suggest that he is qualified.

Personally I would like to see them blow the whole transit agency up and start over.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

As an outsider please indulge me after reading the last couple of pages, as I have a comment and a question.

First, I really feel for you guys re: the present state of affairs at PIT. I went through there before the pulldown by US on the way to & from Binghamton, and was totally impressed by the layout, the business and the airmall - which was a very new concept at the time. Sadly, the same thing has happened in Cincy and St. Louis. Coming from someone in the industry, please take comfort in the fact that you do have a decently modern and very functional airport with fantastic bones going forward - a lot of places Pittsburgh's size can't say the same.

Secondly, we have just lost our fantastic CEO of MARTA, Beverly Scott - who has been recruited to run the MBTA in Boston. The ONLY finalists for her replacement are Steve Bland of your PAT, and Keith Parker of San Antonio's VIA. Neither of these agencies are even half the size of MARTA, the nations ninth largest agency.

My question is, is this guy qualified to run such a large agency that includes a 48 mile heavy rail system? I know he is probably used to a hostile State government, but do you get ANY State funding at all, or is the situation as ugly as it is here in GA? I am aware that you escaped the draconian service cuts that were supposed to take place last month, but I am totaly ignorant of the details. I just worry that this guy isn't qualified to even be nominated.

Any and all comments and opinions are more than welcome, and thanks in advance guys!

Let's see, Bland takes a transit agency that was among the largest in the country by per capita albeit severely lacking in both area and variety of modes offered and puts it through the shredder without coming up with neither any creative ideas to expand the system, nor to come up with outside-the-box new funding ideas.

So with that, HELL NO!

Having said that, let Bland go. Atlanta and Jacksonville aren't far south enough. How much further is Hell?

What we could use in return is an outside-the-box thinker; someone who has multi-modal planning experience and creative finance experience. Pittsburgh cannot rely solely on buses and a very limited LRT system. Sure, they extended it a mile under the river to the North Side, but it's still very lacking. We need an extension to the Airport, and a highly-recommended heavy rail line if not a light-rail extension to Oakland. BRT may work for now, but I don't see that as adequately serving the Downtown-Oakland traffic. It's a very heavily traveled corridor. Pittsburgh needs to expand its transit network, NOT SHRINK IT! It's too damned small as it is!

Not to mention, why doesn't Pittsburgh have a more regional transit system? Look at other metro transit authorities. Atlanta's is regional and serves all the surrounding counties. As does Cleveland's and Baltimore's to name a couple more. I know Indianapolis and Cincinnati are severely lacking in a multi modal transit system, but Pittsburgh's really isn't much better if you ask me. They once had a regional trolley system that served the northern suburbs, but that was axed in the '60s instead of upgraded to a better system. Yeah, those buses really did wonders for our system...

Originally Posted by markson33

Personally I would like to see them blow the whole transit agency up and start over.

Same here, personally.

[PITairport]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

PIT really hasn't aged well as a facility. Dated design right out of the gate, poor maintenance, etc. Regardless of passenger totals, I'm always struck by how ugly the whole complex is. PIT opened in 1992. Three years later Denver International Airport opened (1995).

It's crazy to me that our architect was so behind the curve... three years later and something that looks like this opens?



</end tangent>

I couldn't agree with you more. Munich airport opened in 1992, the same year as PIT, and looks like it could have opened yesterday.



Same with Osaka Kansai. While it opened 2 years after PIT, construction on both started in 1987.


At the time the world's airport designers were moving to steel and glass structure, but for some reason PIT is a mostly concrete structure, which ages horribly. I like the ceilings, but the rest of it looks like a bomb shelter.

Ironically, this was also an issue with the original 1952 terminal. It was intentionally planned to look like an ocean liner using 1930's art deco architecture. It was out dated the decade it opened, and very hard to modernize. OTOH, other 1950's terminals were built in a modular fashion, and were much easier to remodel and add onto. BWI's and SEA's terminal is from the 1950's and look more modern today than PIT!

[BrianTH]

I think Bland has done an extremely good job under very difficult circumstances. The legacy costs and state funding levels are out of his hands, but he has managed to preserve a lot more ridership that would otherwise have been lost through a variety of efficiency reforms, including the comprehensive system redesign known as the TDP.

Anyway, there has been a long series of studies looking at rapid transit options for the corridor from Downtown through Oakland and Squirrel Hill to Wilkinsburg. A subway is the ideal solution, but would be extremely expensive and would require a big federal contribution. Meanwhile, the virtues of "Rapid Bus" (the TDP's name for a BRT approach) are not just that it can be implemented for a lot less money, but also that it can use "collector" routes from all over the East End to provide upgraded service through at least Oakland.

In fact, I think even if there was a Downtown-Oakland subway, or Downtown-Oakland-Wilkinsburg subway, those Rapid Bus collector routes through Oakland would remain a very good idea. So it makes sense to do those, while working toward an eventual subway as well.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think Bland has done an extremely good job under very difficult circumstances. The legacy costs and state funding levels are out of his hands, but he has managed to preserve a lot more ridership that would otherwise have been lost through a variety of efficiency reforms, including the comprehensive system redesign known as the TDP.

Anyway, there has been a long series of studies looking at rapid transit options for the corridor from Downtown through Oakland and Squirrel Hill to Wilkinsburg. A subway is the ideal solution, but would be extremely expensive and would require a big federal contribution. Meanwhile, the virtues of "Rapid Bus" (the TDP's name for a BRT approach) are not just that it can be implemented for a lot less money, but also that it can use "collector" routes from all over the East End to provide upgraded service through at least Oakland.

In fact, I think even if there was a Downtown-Oakland subway, or Downtown-Oakland-Wilkinsburg subway, those Rapid Bus collector routes through Oakland would remain a very good idea. So it makes sense to do those, while working toward an eventual subway as well.

I agree totally, BrianTH. And given that the chances of a subway being built between downtown and Oakland are roughly those of the Penguins, Steelers AND Pirates winning their respective championships in the same year, I'd rather see a BRT line between them then wait until hell freezes over for a subway line.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[atlantaguy]

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate all the feedback.

[AaronPGH]

Agreed on Oakland BRT as well. I'd like to actually have a shot at using a rapid line there at some point in my life before I die. Barring some huge shift in the transit-funding climate, a subway ain't going to happen. Not for a very long time.

[BrianTH]

Incidentally, here is an opinion piece on PAT funding from an Allegheny Conference official (the Allegheny Conference is a sort of Chamber of Commerce-type entity that has long been serving an informal oversight role in local transit issues) that more or less makes the case for Bland:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opin...nsit-or-watch-our-economy-wither-218703/

Since Mr. Bland's arrival as CEO in 2006, and with the support of a revamped governing board and the backing of the Allegheny County executive, the Port Authority has cut its administrative staff. Nonunion workers who remain will no longer have their health care paid for when they retire. Their traditional pension has been replaced by a 401(k)-like defined contribution plan. And the authority took its first steps at addressing its union labor issues with a ground-breaking agreement. As a result, the Port Authority budget is growing at half the rate of inflation once you remove pension and retiree health care legacy costs over which management has no control.

The Port Authority has not just cut costs. Since cutting inefficient routes and redesigning its 50-year-old bus-and-rail network to respond better to community needs, the Port Authority is carrying 50 percent more passengers for each hour of service than when Mr. Bland took office.

Allegheny Conference research indicates that no big-city transit system has done more to transform itself over the past five years than the Port Authority.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think Bland has done an extremely good job under very difficult circumstances. The legacy costs and state funding levels are out of his hands, but he has managed to preserve a lot more ridership that would otherwise have been lost through a variety of efficiency reforms, including the comprehensive system redesign known as the TDP.

Anyway, there has been a long series of studies looking at rapid transit options for the corridor from Downtown through Oakland and Squirrel Hill to Wilkinsburg. A subway is the ideal solution, but would be extremely expensive and would require a big federal contribution. Meanwhile, the virtues of "Rapid Bus" (the TDP's name for a BRT approach) are not just that it can be implemented for a lot less money, but also that it can use "collector" routes from all over the East End to provide upgraded service through at least Oakland.

In fact, I think even if there was a Downtown-Oakland subway, or Downtown-Oakland-Wilkinsburg subway, those Rapid Bus collector routes through Oakland would remain a very good idea. So it makes sense to do those, while working toward an eventual subway as well.

Originally Posted by glowrock

I agree totally, BrianTH. And given that the chances of a subway being built between downtown and Oakland are roughly those of the Penguins, Steelers AND Pirates winning their respective championships in the same year, I'd rather see a BRT line between them then wait until hell freezes over for a subway line.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Yep, fair enough. I would be kinda cool to have Downtown and Oakland connected with each other by BRT, bike lanes, AND a subway at some point. Right now, it is easier to implement bike and BRT considering the cost, which I believe they are doing or about to do as we speak. Isn't it in the $1 to $2 billion range for a subway line there anyway?

[BrianTH]

I think it would probably be over $2 billion by now (with current construction costs). And yet it is probably worth it--the problem would be convincing the state and the feds of that.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think it would probably be over $2 billion by now (with current construction costs). And yet it is probably worth it--the problem would be convincing the state and the feds of that.

I guess for now we should just build the bike lanes and add a BRT corridor through there. The one problem with deferring a subway line is I guess things would only get more expensive down the road... leaving the state and feds to even more strongly oppose any funding proposal...

"We didn't want to secure funding then, and we surely as hell aren't going to now or anytime in the near future!"

You know what burns me? There was money back in the '20s and '30s in the form of state andor federal grants for an extensive subway network. Somehow that all went poof and we now have two very large employment centers with very poor connectivity between them...