Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[SpongeG]

if i have to go anywhere west of cambie like south granville i drive (from coquitlam) - if i have to go just to cambie/broadway area i take the train

I am sure there are more people like me in surrey who do the same and would switch to transit if getting to west boradway was easier by train

the problem with the surrey plan is just to get more people on the train into vancouver - it will not get surrey residents to stop driving in surrey - all the people i know who live in surrey work in surrey and drive cause transit is extremely useless they have to go via Z to get to B its quite ridiculous

if surey had better transit that served surrey instead of transit that feeds the transit into vancouver i could see spending the money there but its not going to do that its just being spent to feed more people onto the expo line

[nname]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The thing with Broadway is its never going to grow, and the only benefit of having rapid transit there, whether it be elevated, underground, or segregated ground level, is to make travel faster for those going from Commercial or VCC Clarke station to UBC (or Arbutus, wherever the line ends).

There's more to the Broadway Line than to make travel faster:

1. Reduce load for downtown segment for Expo and Canada Line, hence delay the need of costly capacity improvement

2. Increase the transit mode share. If we can double the mode share to get it to the same level as Downtown Vancouver, that's another 100,000 daily riders even if there's no growth like you said.

3. UBC is growing.. both residential and the number of students attending. As long as the population of Metro Vancouver keeps growing and there's no other new university established, UBC will likely to keep growing.

4. The B-Line is almost full and there's almost no way to take in any new riders

5. In 2011, 99 B-Line is actually growing at the same rate as route 321 in Surrey - but the B-Line is 8x busier.

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

the problem with the surrey plan is just to get more people on the train into vancouver - it will not get surrey residents to stop driving in surrey - all the people i know who live in surrey work in surrey and drive cause transit is extremely useless they have to go via Z to get to B its quite ridiculous

if surey had better transit that served surrey instead of transit that feeds the transit into vancouver i could see spending the money there but its not going to do that its just being spent to feed more people onto the expo line

Well, the difference is, Vancouver have 3 major destinations to feed riders into - Downtown, Central Broadway, and UBC. If you look at the transit map, you'll notice almost every single route within the City of Vancouver feeds into one of the three destinations. The only exception would be 26, 27, 28, 29, and beside the 28, the other three are low-ridership routes and all of them got their share of service cut this year...

Surrey have Surrey Central, a few town centres, and everything else scattered all over the place. So were else should the buses go?

[xd_1771]

I mean, Translink is already having trouble keeping up with bus service levels

The thing where you're wrong is TransLink is not having trouble keeping up with existing bus service levels, they're having trouble with the expansion of those levels. SkyTrain expansion can improve system-wide cost efficiency to the point where the outlying bus routes can improve, while at the same time revenues still increase. Case in point: when the 351 cut service between Bridgeport & Downtown Vancouver (in favour of Canada Line), the entire route frequency improved where it still existed (evening out the operating cost savings). Even so, TransLink operating cost recoveries improved by 6% the next year.

No matter the billions in capital, expanding system-wide transit service through the expansion of SkyTrain is actually an extremely efficient use of money and can have region-wide benefits. I think this applies to both the Broadway corridor and Surrey. There's a balance that can be achieved in expansion to service these two important zones. When you look at Broadway's travel demand, the 99 B-Line pass-ups drop sharply once you pass Granville. If servicing existing demand on Broadway should be the norm then perhaps the expansion should be limited to there because the 99 B-Line is not having trouble handling the demand westward of that.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The thing with Broadway is its never going to grow, and the only benefit of having rapid transit there, whether it be elevated, underground, or segregated ground level, is to make travel faster for those going from Commercial or VCC Clarke station to UBC (or Arbutus, wherever the line ends). 100,000 people crammed into buses is still not that big a deal...

Central Broadway is still growing as an office district. Office buildings contain far more people than apartment buildings and therefore create much more ridership. Besides that, there are still areas that could be redeveloped into high density residential, especially Mt. Pleasant. The light industrial land in Mt. Pleasant could house close to 10 000 people using West End type density.

There are 95 000 people living in the (aprox.) 14 square km that make up the Mt. Pleasant/Fairview/Kitsilano neighborhoods, which Skytain would run right through the middle of.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by wrenegade

While I disagree that Broadway will never grow, you can't look past the fact that UBC is one of the fastest (if not the fastest) growing areas in Metro Vancouver. And I am talking about about residents, not just growth in university students.

Also, you point out that 100,000 people crammed into buses isn't a big deal. Well if that's the case, why don't we throw a whole bunch of buses at Surrey? (we totally should).

Your kidding me, right?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Surely, a line with the potential ridership of the Broadway line with no clear quick alternatives would be a great long-term investment by a private company.

A no-brainer route like this would be a stable source of income for a large corporation that is looking to diversify away from the volatility of the open markets.

In fact, long-term, I'd expect that route to be actually profitable.

If such a line is a good investment, how do you envisage most of it? Elevated? At Grade along Braodway? Cut-cover? Above-gound up the Point Grey escarpment, or bored tunnel?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by logan5

Central Broadway is still growing as an office district. Office buildings contain far more people than apartment buildings and therefore create much more ridership. Besides that, there are still areas that could be redeveloped into high density residential, especially Mt. Pleasant. The light industrial land in Mt. Pleasant could house close to 10 000 people using West End type density.

There are 95 000 people living in the (aprox.) 14 square km that make up the Mt. Pleasant/Fairview/Kitsilano neighborhoods, which Skytain would run right through the middle of.

What are the new office projects in Broadway?

I know we have an entire section in the forums dedicated to it but I'm just too lazy. Just name some examples, as I'm curious how Central Broadway is growing as an office district.

And with any office project being built or proposed right now, the question remains....will it actually happen given the impending BC NDP win?


The bottom line is this...all this "redevelop this, add more residents to that, UBC is growing", everyone seems to forget that in order for you to live in that area, you need to be super duper rich. People are moving in Metro Vancouver, this is a given fact thanks to Canada's 300,000 a year quota on new immigrants.

Not all of these immigrants are super duper rich, and most will settle in the big metro areas, including Metro Vancouver. And majority of them will go to Surrey and the Northeast Sector , because it is the most affordable place in the region by far.

You cannot expect all of them to buy million dollar homes in the UBC area, its just not happening. Not every Chinese person is Li Kashing, and not every new migrant is super duper rich. But they will still come to the Greater Vancouver area because they simply like it here.

This is what a Surrey rapid transit will literally look like in two decades...

Originally Posted by Igsuonnimo

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=91145864&postcount=430

That's right! Its going to be EXACTLY like that, including the makeup of the people. Does Broadway even come close, today or in two decades?

[logan5]

What are the new office projects in Broadway?

The facts are, the Broadway corridor has much higher pop density, and much higher employment density. No one can predict the future, but it's highly likely this will not change for many decades. Central Broadway will grow as a major employment centre, I have no doubt. The CoV sees it that way too.

http://vancouver.ca/home-property-development/central-broadway-corridor.aspx

I can understand why Surrey would want more Skytrain, just look at what is happening in Burnaby. Skytrain makes your city more attractive to residents and businesses, which in turn make your city more vibrant, and a more exciting place to be. And you could make a good arguement that city building should start with good transportation infrastructure, and build and shape your city from there, so I wouldn't have a problem with Skytrain expansion in Surrey.

At the same time though, I wonder about Surrey. They have had Skytrain for 18 years, and while there has been some development, it has been poorly planned (imo), and there hasn't been enough of it considering the nearly 2 decades Skytrain has been there. Your 2 decade example does not even come close to the 2 decade example that we actually have in Surrey City Centre. Look at what has happened in Richmond in the 3 short years since the Canada Line has arrived; look at what is happening in Coquitlam/Port Moody, where Skytrain is still 4 years away. For whatever reason people aren't as enthusiastic about Surrey as they are about other municipalities.

When all those parking lots along King George Blvd are redeveloped, then we can start thinking about Skytrain expansion in Surrey. Imo Skytrain would be far better utilized along the Broadway corridor for decades to come.

[bardak]

And what will happen happen when someone from Surrey wants to go somewhere along the Broadway corridor. The main problem with Broadway is not that it is slow it is a simple math problem. The 99 is over capacity during the rush and it is not really possible to increases it. As it stands capacity in the Broadway corridor is an large unspoken problem of the Evergreen line.

Also an extension to UBC will case a major shift in mode share in the North of Fraser and also a small one in the South of Fraser. The more people using transit in the region will make additional investment more relevant and lower the cost per rider and increase the revenue for translink.

[usog]

Originally Posted by bardak

And what will happen happen when someone from Surrey wants to go somewhere along the Broadway corridor. The main problem with Broadway is not that it is slow it is a simple math problem. The 99 is over capacity during the rush and it is not really possible to increases it. As it stands capacity in the Broadway corridor is an large unspoken problem of the Evergreen line.

Also an extension to UBC will case a major shift in mode share in the North of Fraser and also a small one in the South of Fraser. The more people using transit in the region will make additional investment more relevant and lower the cost per rider and increase the revenue for translink.

As a previous poster said, take a look at who benefits from a skytrain to UBC, and who benefits from taking that money and putting it into south of fraser? I'd think transit boost is more important to the middle/lower class suburb area rather than the university students/super rich vancouver west people. I just don't get how people can put skytrain to UBC above so many other priorities. Of course skytrain to Cambie is a given in the future.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

This is what a Surrey rapid transit will literally look like in two decades...

That's right! Its going to be EXACTLY like that, including the makeup of the people. Does Broadway even come close, today or in two decades?

The 99 B-line looks like that today.

Do you have any firsthand knowledge of the state of the 99B and its parallel routes? It sounds like you have some misconceptions about its current state.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

As a Vancouver...or more precisely, a Yaletown resident, I think rapid transit expansion to Surrey, whether it be LRT or Skytrain, would be far more beneficial.

That is the dilemma of the Broadway extension.
it is not a radial line, so in fact it doesn't benifit as much as Vancouver resident, especially from Yaletown (whose could barely have to use it) as it benefit to the suburbanit such crazyjoeda.

Politcal pundit, and more generally non transit user. don't necessarily see that, they believe that the tracks need to be lay down inside their parish to be beneficial to them. ... probably they believe the main beneficiary of a bridge is the river and not the shores it links.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Anybody know what the rev/passenger is for Expo Line, and from that the profit/passenger in operating expenses? As far as I know, Translink is still carrying hundreds of millions in debt from the initial Expo Line.

I think there is a thread appropriate for this kind of info: Translink statistic, and more specifically this post

It says, that operating cost of the skytrain is $1.12 per trip (effectively lower than revenue - debt level is estimated at $2.87 per trip...

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, the difference is, Vancouver have 3 major destinations to feed riders into - Downtown, Central Broadway, and UBC. If you look at the transit map, you'll notice almost every single route within the City of Vancouver feeds into one of the three destinations. The only exception would be 26, 27, 28, 29, and beside the 28, the other three are low-ridership routes and all of them got their share of service cut this year...

Surrey have Surrey Central, a few town centres, and everything else scattered all over the place. So were else should the buses go?

well i can use my friend as an example he lives in fleetwood and works on scott road - there are no busses from fleetwood in surrey unless he goes via surrey central - to get to work he has to catch the bus from fleetwood, transfer to skytrain at surrey central get off at scott road and transfer to another bus to get to scottroad - strawberry hill area, takes him about 60 mins - 15-20 mins if he drives

so he drives

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The thing with Broadway is its never going to grow, and the only benefit of having rapid transit there, whether it be elevated, underground, or segregated ground level, is to make travel faster for those going from Commercial or VCC Clarke station to UBC (or Arbutus, wherever the line ends).

I think you're off your rocker on this one. Broadway is gradually growing into another blob of downtown. The hospital continues to grow and expand, housing and commercial infill are constantly under construction. UBC continues massively build high end housing units (which means they commute away from UBC), and expand. The Musqueam lands which are a total wild card.

Then there's Mt. Pleasant, Fairview, South Granville, and Kits which even without major redevelopment are growing at about 10% per decade even without counting the major developments of the last couple years.

For the most part, the donut around downtown will carry on the trends that the West End and Yaletown have started.

[nname]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

well i can use my friend as an example he lives in fleetwood and works on scott road - there are no busses from fleetwood in surrey unless he goes via surrey central - to get to work he has to catch the bus from fleetwood, transfer to skytrain at surrey central get off at scott road and transfer to another bus to get to scottroad - strawberry hill area, takes him about 60 mins - 15-20 mins if he drives

so he drives

That's the problem. There are one main destination SoF (Surrey Central) and then there are many smaller ones (Scottsdale, Newton, Guidford, Fleetwood, Cloverdale, Langley, White Rock, ....) It is impossible to have direct service between any of these places. In fact, for the 8 places listed above, TransLink will need to run 120 bus routes in order to have a direct connection between each of these destinations - and this does not include the case where your friends home or work place is at a distance away from the town centre.

There ARE many options from Fleetwood to Scottsdale with only 1 transfer - unless again he live/work far away from the town centre (ie. 160th St), or he refuse to take a bus that does not involve transfer at a SkyTrain station. Just to list a few:
* 388 -> 319, transfer at Scott and 88th [35min]
* 341 -> 319/301, transfer at Newton [35min]
* 345/375 -> 364, transfer at 152nd and 64th [40min]
* And then the usual transfer at Surrey Central (to the 316/312, which goes directly to Scottsdale Exchange) [50min]

So I don't know what is he expecting.. a route that provide him door to door service? Even then, driving will still be faster. Unless its a rapid transit or commuter rail service, transit will always be slower than driving.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by nname

In fact, for the 8 places listed above, TransLink will need to run 120 bus routes in order to have a direct connection between each of these destinations

Good transit network design does NOT attempt to directly connect every destination with every other one. It arranges routes in a GRID so that anyone can get from any one place to any other place by taking a north/south route and transferring once to an east/west route. That's why the trolley system in the City of Vancouver is so effective.

And that's why it's so important to extend the Millenium line to at least Cambie - so that it can form a grid connection to the Canada Line.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Good transit network design does NOT attempt to directly connect every destination with every other one. It arranges routes in a GRID so that anyone can get from any one place to any other place by taking a north/south route and transferring once to an east/west route. That's why the trolley system in the City of Vancouver is so effective.

And that's why it's so important to extend the Millenium line to at least Cambie - so that it can form a grid connection to the Canada Line.

The UBC extension should at least begin with a few phases, first to Cambie with 2 stations, then to Granville, Artubus, then UBC. Those who are going to those destinations would reduce some demand on the Broadway Corridor but probably not enough demand. I can see Broadway City-Hall coming up there in terms of being one of the busiest stations in the Skytrain network once the connection is made.

[twoNeurons]

A line to Cambie would likely have three stations:

Great Northern Way (Centre for Digital Media Campus)
Main
Cambie

Oh what a glorious transit triangle that would be.

[twoNeurons]

(double post)