Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Alon]

Yeah, exactly. Not counting Expo, there will have been four expansions of the system: Millennium, Canada, Evergreen, UBC. Going by ridership on the buses that they're replacing, the order should have been UBC (i.e. Broadway west of Commercial), Canada, Millennium, Evergreen.

Even if the order is one of cost per rider, Canada is about to drop below Millennium or already has. Evergreen is a bit higher than both and UBC is a bit higher than Evergreen, but frankly I feel like the ridership projection is lowballed, and in addition if they'd built it first they could've probably gotten away with cut-and-cover and reduced the cost. Probably the Canada Line would've had to be bored then but that would be just 6.5 km vs. 12 for UBC.

[punface]

From Stephen Quinn in the Globe and Mail:

Former Vancouver city councillor Gordon Price said something this week that I found simultaneously startling and depressing: He doesn’t expect to see a rapid transit line along West Broadway to UBC in his lifetime.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...s-really-a-lifetime-away/article4528760/

[SpongeG]

i don't either - not all the way to UBC perhaps to arbutus or at least cambie

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by punface

From Stephen Quinn in the Globe and Mail:



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...s-really-a-lifetime-away/article4528760/

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i don't either - not all the way to UBC perhaps to arbutus or at least cambie

They blew it again in transit planning ... Jimminy Crickets !!

[WarrenC12]

I don't think we'll see a UBC line until the province is rolling in some serious surplus budgets. With an impending NDP government and some unions they will surely backpay, that could be many years away.

[queetz@home]

UBC Line as Skytrain can be done much sooner regardless of what government sits in Victoria, but this will require the ultimate sacrifice....allowing the line to be elevated. Ultimately, the only reason why UBC Line seems the stuff of Science fiction is because people who live in the area insist that any rail transit line that go near their houses must be buried, hence ARTIFICIALLY INCREASING its cost to astronomical levels.

Canada Line at its current form was just forced down our throats by a certain quitter, and the results we are seeing today (short platforms, almost no hope of expansion, two car limit, etc) is the end result. Seems silly given how much it costs us, and how it totally derailed other transit plans. But if it was allowed to be elevated, we'd have more than enough money for both Evergreen and UBC (barring if this was allowed to be elevated) to be completed by now.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think we'll see a UBC line until the province is rolling in some serious surplus budgets.

If not a UBC line, we need to extend the Millenium line to AT LEAST Cambie to complete the Skytrain grid to the Canada Line and relieve the pressure on the Expo Line between Broadway and downtown. And if we're going that far we might as well go to Granville, and perhaps even Arbutus.

[crazyjoeda]

As a Surrey resident I think SkyTrain along Broadway is more beneficial than LRT is Surrey. Despite improvements to city planning and densification, Surrey still lacks the infrastructure and walkable neighbourhoods that make transit the most viable transportation option; by infrastructure I mean sidewalks and bike routes.

The maze of culdesacs found through the city impedes pedestrian access to arterial transit routes and the majority of retail centres are designed for car access separated from the street by large parking lots, so because of this I drive around Surrey, sadly for me transit is rarely a viable option. However, I usually take transit for travel into Vancouver because it is much more walkable and because traffic congestion and lack of parking make car travel undesirable.

Personally I think many South Fraser residence would be more benefit from rapid transit on Broadway. I would love to see LRT in Surrey but from a regional perspective I dispute that project having priority.

Surrey is getting better but in most areas the city continues to be built for cars.

[logan5]

Former Vancouver city councillor Gordon Price said something this week that I found simultaneously startling and depressing: He doesn’t expect to see a rapid transit line along West Broadway to UBC in his lifetime.

This city has been building rapid transit at an average rate of around 2.5 km per year (since 1985), so I would say we'll definitely see rapid transit to at least Arbutus well within his lifetime (knock on wood), maybe not all the way to UBC though. A complete redevelopment of the university golf course, and some surrounding land, into high density residential would be the clincher for me as far as extending all the way to UBC. I know there's a land lease issue, but I'm sure something could be arranged.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Canada Line at its current form was just forced down our throats by a certain quitter, and the results we are seeing today (short platforms, almost no hope of expansion, two car limit, etc) is the end result.

I can't find the Translink screenline survey that covered False Creek, but I believe the Canada Line's load limit of 15 000 people per hour (I have a feeling it could go higher) is enough to handle the peak demand for all modes combined, for at least a couple of decades.

The total capacity of the Expo Line and Canada Line combined would be 40 000 pph into and out of downtown Vancouver, travelling from the southern and eastern portions of Metro Vancouver. I believe that is enough capacity for at least a couple of decades.

nname probably has those screenline survey's on hand.

[dleung]

We need people to be vocal about this, especially ones from south of fraser like crazyjoeda, who are rational enough to realize that what's good for the region will benefit Surrey indirectly. Can someone write an editorial or something... make good opinions more public? God knows we've heard enough BS from the Rail-for-the-valley people...

The Broadway line should have been built before even the millenium line. It would really suck if they waited till after evergreen is completed before doing environmental assessments and stuff on Broadway... they better start right away. The fact that they're considering options other than full subway to UBC is already retarded (i'm hoping it's only a formal gesture to appease the "due process" geriatrics).

Some mention of the messed-up way transit lines are funded and prioritized should be in this letter. It should emphasize that within the grand scheme of subsidized sprawl and subsidized car ownership and subsidized fossil fuels, the suburbs will always owe the central city regardless of whether they get an underutilizied LRT line for their tax dollars.

People need to recognize the greater good, otherwise we'll end up like Toronto, which is getting the most opulent subway extention ever in it's most godforsaken hinterlands, while the other 90% of its ridership is crammed in crumbling 40-year old infrastructure that is no bigger than when it was first built.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If not a UBC line, we need to extend the Millenium line to AT LEAST Cambie to complete the Skytrain grid to the Canada Line and relieve the pressure on the Expo Line between Broadway and downtown. And if we're going that far we might as well go to Granville, and perhaps even Arbutus.

Exactly. That's totally feasible; not asking too much.

[Alon]

Not only is all of this feasible, but going then from Arbutus to UBC is good for operating costs, because not only does this allow truly eliminating the 99-B, but also it makes travel demand more symmetric. If you just build to Arbutus, you're serving Fairview and the dense residential parts of Kits, and this means that the travel you're going to generate is work trips to Central Broadway and diagonal trips to Downtown. This means westbound trains start to empty out at Cambie. It's only 3 stops after that (and 2 of them are still Central Broadway), but probably you'll still be duplicating the 99-B because otherwise it would require two transfers to get to the Canada Line.

In contrast, if you build to UBC, you're going to start seeing true reverse-peak traffic: a lot of westbound traffic in the morning, and even diagonal trips from Downtown (and the West End, etc.) to UBC.

[usog]

Originally Posted by Alon

Not only is all of this feasible, but going then from Arbutus to UBC is good for operating costs, because not only does this allow truly eliminating the 99-B, but also it makes travel demand more symmetric. If you just build to Arbutus, you're serving Fairview and the dense residential parts of Kits, and this means that the travel you're going to generate is work trips to Central Broadway and diagonal trips to Downtown. This means westbound trains start to empty out at Cambie. It's only 3 stops after that (and 2 of them are still Central Broadway), but probably you'll still be duplicating the 99-B because otherwise it would require two transfers to get to the Canada Line.

In contrast, if you build to UBC, you're going to start seeing true reverse-peak traffic: a lot of westbound traffic in the morning, and even diagonal trips from Downtown (and the West End, etc.) to UBC.

Yes and all these billions for the build-out to UBC will come from...? I mean, Translink is already having trouble keeping up with bus service levels, you really think they'll ever get funding for this anytime soon? If anything I can see skytrain to Cambie but that's it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by usog

Yes and all these billions for the build-out to UBC will come from...? I mean, Translink is already having trouble keeping up with bus service levels, you really think they'll ever get funding for this anytime soon? If anything I can see skytrain to Cambie but that's it.

Anybody know what the rev/passenger is for Expo Line, and from that the profit/passenger in operating expenses? As far as I know, Translink is still carrying hundreds of millions in debt from the initial Expo Line.

The billions in capital cost need to come from higher levels of government. I wonder how much the Feds would kick in if the province were to come up with 50% for example.

[jlousa]

I don't have the numbers at my disposal but assuming a P3 partnership similar to the Canada Line arrangment with contributions from the Province/Feds and UBC the line could be built with a positive outcome to Translink. The line should have enough ridership to carry to the P3 costs w/o futher outflow from Translink and they could pocket the savings from removing the 99b line if they decide not to redeploy it elsewhere. Of course we know it would need to redeploy to Surrey to make it sellable to the public.

[nname]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Anybody know what the rev/passenger is for Expo Line, and from that the profit/passenger in operating expenses? As far as I know, Translink is still carrying hundreds of millions in debt from the initial Expo Line.

The cost recovery for Expo+Millennium line is around 109% in 2008. That's the last figure I can find.

TransLink does not carry any debt from the Expo Line. It is still on BC Transit's book and never got transferred over back in 2001 (See page 73 here)

Originally Posted by jlousa

I don't have the numbers at my disposal but assuming a P3 partnership similar to the Canada Line arrangment with contributions from the Province/Feds and UBC the line could be built with a positive outcome to Translink. The line should have enough ridership to carry to the P3 costs w/o futher outflow from Translink and they could pocket the savings from removing the 99b line if they decide not to redeploy it elsewhere. Of course we know it would need to redeploy to Surrey to make it sellable to the public.

The concessionaire credits is still count as a TransLink debt. From the 2011 annual report, it still carries a debt value of ~650 millions. Similarly, the GEB still carries a debt of 1 billion+.

[Gordon]

As far as I can remember the Canada line cost recovery number was 100,000 passengers \ day the last available numbers (2011) was 136,000 passengers\day

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

As a Surrey resident I think SkyTrain along Broadway is more beneficial than LRT is Surrey...

As a Vancouver...or more precisely, a Yaletown resident, I think rapid transit expansion to Surrey, whether it be LRT or Skytrain, would be far more beneficial.

The thing with Broadway is its never going to grow, and the only benefit of having rapid transit there, whether it be elevated, underground, or segregated ground level, is to make travel faster for those going from Commercial or VCC Clarke station to UBC (or Arbutus, wherever the line ends). 100,000 people crammed into buses is still not that big a deal, at least those people can still take *something* that is usable that can get them to their destination in a reasonably timely manner. Otherwise, those 100,000 people a day wouldn't be taking the buses at all, but instead be driving in their cars.

The ones in Surrey though, they virtually have little transit service, and yet Surrey is expected to grow far far more than the Broadway corridor, or even the city of Vancouver in general. As of right now, if you take a bus in Surrey, its such a cumbersome process that takes a ton of time, it is simply better to buy a cheap beater car and use that to get to places. Its madness to say the least, Kwatlen college even demonstrated that one can run faster than take a bus (of course, not everyone is fit to run the distances on a daily basis for work and school).

LRT is the choice simply because given Surrey's topography and road network, it can easily be expanded throughout the entire city at very little cost. Though I personally would prefer expansion of both SKytrain to Fleetwood and LRT to act as feeder routes funneling to the main Skytrain line.

Originally Posted by Gordon

As far as I can remember the Canada line cost recovery number was 100,000 passengers \ day the last available numbers (2011) was 136,000 passengers\day

So Translink is not subsidizing Canada Line at all? Not a single penny?

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

As a Vancouver...or more precisely, a Yaletown resident, I think rapid transit expansion to Surrey, whether it be LRT or Skytrain, would be far more beneficial.

The thing with Broadway is its never going to grow, and the only benefit of having rapid transit there, whether it be elevated, underground, or segregated ground level, is to make travel faster for those going from Commercial or VCC Clarke station to UBC (or Arbutus, wherever the line ends). 100,000 people crammed into buses is still not that big a deal, at least those people can still take *something* that is usable that can get them to their destination in a reasonably timely manner. Otherwise, those 100,000 people a day wouldn't be taking the buses at all, but instead be driving in their cars.

While I disagree that Broadway will never grow, you can't look past the fact that UBC is one of the fastest (if not the fastest) growing areas in Metro Vancouver. And I am talking about about residents, not just growth in university students.

Also, you point out that 100,000 people crammed into buses isn't a big deal. Well if that's the case, why don't we throw a whole bunch of buses at Surrey? (we totally should).

The Broadway corridor has reached essentially reached saturation point with the 99 B-Line. More buses won't fix the problem for speed or capacity, Skytrain will. The biggest problem South of the Fraser isn't speed or capacity, it's frequency and the number of routes period. NO area in Vancouver should get Skytrain before having a B-line, I don't care what type of growth is planned or forecasted in the area. We have to deal with the issues we have today (or have had for the past 10 years). Translink only has so much money and although the capital investment in Broadway/UBC Skytrain would be massive, the line itself would be revenue neutral (or even positive) for day one. There is no way Skytrain or LRT in Surrey could recover operational costs within the first couple years.

I know South of the Fraser is terribly served by transit and has been for a while now, but that doesn't mean that they get to jump the que or skip steps on the way to rapid-transit, they unfortunately have to go through the motions like everyone else.

[twoNeurons]

Surely, a line with the potential ridership of the Broadway line with no clear quick alternatives would be a great long-term investment by a private company.

A no-brainer route like this would be a stable source of income for a large corporation that is looking to diversify away from the volatility of the open markets.

In fact, long-term, I'd expect that route to be actually profitable.