New Arena for Downtown Edmonton

[tallisgood]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

The return on investment is a projection. It might happen, and for Edmonton's sake I really hope it does if they go ahead with this arena. But, here is an interesting read that points to some parallel situations, and how it worked out for them. I am sure you can argue that Edmonton is different, like I said, I hope for that city's sake it is.

http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2012/5/8/the-pitfalls-of-entertainment-districts.html

Interesting article. I don't claim to know all the answers but I'll note the following:

1) KC never succeeded in landing a new NHL franchise (or from any other league, as far as I'm aware of, though I don't watch NBA so I'm not sure about that) for their new arena. We already have one. So the comparison may not be entirely fair.

but

2) Centrally planned entertainment districts rarely seem to work out the way they're supposed to, as the article warns. From the get-go I have been against the whole "entertainment district" rah rah that has accompanied this debate. Build a hotel or two, for sure; build condos, by all means; completing the RAM is at least as important as the arena IMO; beautify the area, too, to make it appealing for BOTH visitors and residents; and have services and infrastructure for residents as well as tourists (the new Sobeys is a nice start). However, districts like Old Strathcona (not that it's an "entertainment district" per se) become what they are for largely organic, historical, reasons (with a little help, here and there, like requiring new buildings to conform to a community-oriented theme or standard, for example) rather than because they were planned by politburo blowhards at city hall. The Anaheim "Garden Walk" is yet another such abomonation.

thus

With the Ultima (and hopefully encore) coming down the pipe, along with Fox, and a few others (Edmontonian... pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease), not to mention future LRT service, I still think this can work well, but don't hinge the entire debate on creating an "entertainment district". Just build quality projects and let the area develop its own identity as it may.

[Clearshades]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Important to remember the difference between inducing new development and acting as a magnet for development that would have happened anyways elsewhere.

There is little evidence that the former has ever happened anywhere. This is not to discount the potential positives of the later, but an equal effect could likely be created by investinging far less in different facilities if we didn't need a new arena anyways.

I have witnessed downtown remained pretty much the same for 30+ yrs; even the recent boom barely augmented any change... Im saying no transfornation took place, but do I need to wait another 30+ yrs? It is the duty of higher government levels to help cities prosper with our tax dollar rather than pocketing that to themselves and their corporates friends. When they are entiled to give themselves a 34% pay increment ( = 50, 000 annually), what so wrong with us getting some back for the two cities for pertinent projects as this. They showed no fear with their wage increase, so why pretend with this charade. The worst outcome, they just need to continue their lies; and please, don't tell me they havn't done that!

[MalcolmTucker]

I am just saying like others it isn't a silver bullet

[MrOilers]

So where is this project at? I am looking around, but I cannot find what the next step is that needs to be completed in order to move this project forward. Is the city just waiting for the province to approve the CRL or something?

[Jasper and one o nin]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/edmo...monton+downtown+arena/7201719/story.html

[s4.audios]

With the province's new deficit, I'm really starting to lose hope considering it's the only place mentioned the extra cash will come from. So sad... so very sad.....

[Black Star]

As Mentioned by the Mayor....MSI from 2015/16 will probably be used.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by s4.audios

With the province's new deficit, I'm really starting to lose hope considering it's the only place mentioned the extra cash will come from. So sad... so very sad.....

I don't know why people have hoped for this for so long. The province's position hasn't changed since the day Premier Redford took office.

[Gary Wayne]

We must remain positive or we risk loosing momentum. Edmonton is changing now and the Government will be forced to change as well. No they wont give us a blank cheque for 100 mil but there are indirect ways of doing it so as to look like they are respecting the tax payer. I think what we will see is the government giving Edmonton and Calgary moneys for projects that dont have anything to do with the arena ,but this will allow Edmonton to take the money from other projects and insert it into building the arena.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Gary Wayne

We must remain positive or we risk loosing momentum. Edmonton is changing now and the Government will be forced to change as well. No they wont give us a blank cheque for 100 mil but there are indirect ways of doing it so as to look like they are respecting the tax payer. I think what we will see is the government giving Edmonton and Calgary moneys for projects that dont have anything to do with the arena ,but this will allow Edmonton to take the money from other projects and insert it into building the arena.

Isn't this exactly what they are already doing (as Malcolm Tucker has repeatedly pointed out on this thead)? Problem is Edmonton hasn't taken the money from other projects and put it towards the arena.

[240glt]

Problem is Edmonton hasn't taken the money from other projects and put it towards the arena.

Nor should they IMO

I sure like the idea of a new arena, but why should other projects suffer ?

Maybe they should put a infrastructure improvement levy on all downtown residents' property taxes in the same fashion as I pay a levy for the new sidewalks, curbs, lights and streets in my neighbrohood. $2500/ dwelling unit should generate 1/3 of the required $100 mil right there

[tallisgood]

Isn't is possible to sell "Arena bonds" or something like that? Frankly, who knows how long these historically low interest rates are going to last. We should take advantage of them. I'd buy a few thousand dollars worth if they were available, and so would a LOT of other Edmontonians, I'm sure.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by tallisgood

Isn't is possible to sell "Arena bonds" or something like that? Frankly, who knows how long these historically low interest rates are going to last. We should take advantage of them. I'd buy a few thousand dollars worth if they were available, and so would a LOT of other Edmontonians, I'm sure.

Do you think a lot of investors would by low yield bonds when alternative investment vehicles offer better rates of return? When it comes to your retirement portfolio, Oiler Pride doesn't put food on the table in your golden years.

[tallisgood]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Do you think a lot of investors would by low yield bonds when alternative investment vehicles offer better rates of return? When it comes to your retirement portfolio, Oiler Pride doesn't put food on the table in your golden years.

Dude, people are sinking incomprehensible sums of cash into low yield investments right now, and have been for several years. Believe me, I know. If they weren't there wouldn't BE so many low yield debt instruments being bought up right now. Right or wrong, capital preservation is a dominant theme these days (except with hedge funds and investment banks). That's why bonds viewed as secure can get away with the piddley yields they offer, and Canadian federal, provincial, and municipal debt is considered extremely safe in the investment community.

[mcc16]

So 240glt, you're saying a downtown arena only has direct benefits for those living downtown, so only they should have to pay for it... Alright, I'll go with that, but then once the arena is open lets make sure there is an extra tax on anyone who doesnt live/own downtown when buying tickets to events...

A levy on neighbourhood improvements does not make sense for a project that benefits the entire city.

I may contradict myself here, because I honestly don't know, but do neighborhoods have to pay for the giant rec centers that are going up in their area or is the cost split throughout the entire cities tax base?

[240glt]

Originally Posted by mcc16

So 240glt, you're saying a downtown arena only has direct benefits for those living downtown, so only they should have to pay for it... Alright, I'll go with that, but then once the arena is open lets make sure there is an extra tax on anyone who doesnt live/own downtown when buying tickets to events...

A levy on neighbourhood improvements does not make sense for a project that benefits the entire city.

I may contradict myself here, because I honestly don't know, but do neighborhoods have to pay for the giant rec centers that are going up in their area or is the cost split throughout the entire cities tax base?

^ By that logic we should put a toll on streets that are revitalized through levies to property taxes, and charge everyone who uses those streets who is not a resident.

That levy suggestion was tongue in cheek, but really the ones rallying for this the most are the DT dwellers, so why shouldn't they pay for a portion of it, espeically if they are going to reap the supposed added value of having the facility there ? The more I think about it, an infrastructure improvement levy to the DT residents, maybe not to cover arena costs, but to cover the infrastructure improvements is actually a pretty decent idea.

I believe that people already pay to use rec centres, so that is a bit of a moot point

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Uhm, this is already in the works with the CRL. Unless you're talking about something different.

[SHOFEAR]

I'd be all for my tax bill only paying for services that improve my neighbourhood. Only a tiny fraction of tax dollars raised downtown stay downtown. We could keep all that and probably build multiple arenas every year.

[240glt]

^^ different. the CRL takes funds from the supposed new development that will take place as a result of the construction. An infrasture inprovement levy takes funds from those already there.

^ I am glad you agree. If a levy could cover the infrasture costs, then I think a lot of people would get behind the city throwing a few more bucks into the project itself. However, you're not going to keep all your tax dollars in your neighborhood kiddo... that ain't how it works. Plus you'd be pretty screwed when it came time to flush your toilet or take a shower

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by tallisgood

Isn't is possible to sell "Arena bonds" or something like that? Frankly, who knows how long these historically low interest rates are going to last. We should take advantage of them. I'd buy a few thousand dollars worth if they were available, and so would a LOT of other Edmontonians, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Do you think a lot of investors would by low yield bonds when alternative investment vehicles offer better rates of return? When it comes to your retirement portfolio, Oiler Pride doesn't put food on the table in your golden years.

The City of Edmonton can borrow money through the province on a 30 year term for 3.158%. I don't think there is any way special bonds would somehow garner a lower rate.