How Toronto’s suburbs are trying to switch from subdivisions to density

[brickell]

Since we're going to play this stupid game

Union City, NJ - 51,810/sq m
West Hollywood, CA - 18,326/sq mi
Chelsea, MA - 13,670/sq mi
Hialeah, FL - 11,701/sq mi
Milton, ON - 595/sq mi

[eemy]

Originally Posted by J. Will

Nonsense. If someone shows me stats from a reputable source that proves my stats are wrong, I am more than willing to concede defeat.

The irony here is rather delicious since you seem to stubbornly refuse to show the source of your own stats and when people point out that there is a certain nuance to interpreting these sorts of statistics, your response has boiled down to trumpeting your own point over and over again without even really acknowledging what other people are saying.

This is rather self-defeating, because you fundamentally have a valid point - GTA suburbs are remarkably dense - but instead of taking a more nuanced look at the statistics and more importantly, looking at what's actually on the ground in a place like Milton and developing a more sophisticated understanding of it than dense = good, you've just parroted the same original point over and over again and completely lost any credibility you may have had.

My information regarding dwellings is from the 2011 census for what it's worth.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by giallo

^ I think it's the fact that almost every post you make is to debate, disagree and argue with other forumers. That, and (at least from what I've seen) you never concede defeat. You will argue the most minute stat or figure to the point of absurdity. It seems you only do this if it's about Toronto, Ontario or maybe Canada. You come off as a big time homer and a smug know-it-all. Not the most attractive traits to be known for.

I think that's what glowrock was getting at.

This.

I'm glad you understand my comments, giallo. Too bad someone else doesn't.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[vid]

Originally Posted by brickell

Since we're going to play this stupid game

Union City, NJ - 51,810/sq m
West Hollywood, CA - 18,326/sq mi
Chelsea, MA - 13,670/sq mi
Hialeah, FL - 11,701/sq mi
Milton, ON - 595/sq mi

"Those aren't urban areas they're city limits OMG you don't understand!!!! "

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

I have no doubt that Milton's residential density would rival Toronto and LA's. However, the title is misleading considering many of Toronto's outermost suburbs like King, Nobleton, outskirts of Aurora, Cedar Mills ,Purpleville, Vandorf, Cedar Valley, Whitchurch etc continue to build very spread out acre lot (+) totally car dependent developments. I'm confused because this seems to contradict the new legislation that requires municipalities to build 40% within city limits (as stated in the article above). Could this be a loophole for developers as these areas are already so freakin sprawly they don't have substantial population to be considered urban areas?

Municipalities subject to the Growth Plan have to have at least 50 people and jobs per hectare as an average of development within their borders. So they can approve big
estate lots as long as the density in other developments makes up for it. In the case of Aurora, the density of new development around Bayview/Wellington/Leslie makes up for the lower density of the big estate lots. It's still pretty suburban in form though, I don't think that will ever change.

The 40% refers to the already built up area within the regional (not local) government. York Region, Peel Region, etc. have until 2015 to meet that target. Intensification areas are now in all the new official plans and are expected to accommodate most of that growth. Even small towns have them and are starting to see infill development.

Some developments you're seeing might have been applied for before the Growth Plan came into effect. Large developments can take a decade or two from application to full build-out, so some of them are still being built under the old rules.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Municipalities subject to the Growth Plan have to have at least 50 people and jobs per hectare as an average of development within their borders. So they can approve big
estate lots as long as the density in other developments makes up for it. In the case of Aurora, the density of new development around Bayview/Wellington/Leslie makes up for the lower density of the big estate lots. It's still pretty suburban in form though, I don't think that will ever change.

The 40% refers to the already built up area within the regional (not local) government. York Region, Peel Region, etc. have until 2015 to meet that target. Intensification areas are now in all the new official plans and are expected to accommodate most of that growth. Even small towns have them and are starting to see infill development.

Some developments you're seeing might have been applied for before the Growth Plan came into effect. Large developments can take a decade or two from application to full build-out, so some of them are still being built under the old rules.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Personally, I think a combination of condominium/infill projects and estate lot suburbs (appropriately integrated into their environment with as little footprint as possible and decent proximity to transit arteries) is a reasonable way to go. It's also more fair as it provides options for families. Such developments boast desirable amenities that are not feasible in suburban Milton if current trends continue.

Milton seems like a lose-lose for the buyer. Very car dependent with no redeeming aesthetic natural qualities, lack of space, no condo amenities, and lack of privacy.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The irony here is rather delicious since you seem to stubbornly refuse to show the source of your own stats and when people point out that there is a certain nuance to interpreting these sorts of statistics, your response has boiled down to trumpeting your own point over and over again without even really acknowledging what other people are saying.

This is rather self-defeating, because you fundamentally have a valid point - GTA suburbs are remarkably dense - but instead of taking a more nuanced look at the statistics and more importantly, looking at what's actually on the ground in a place like Milton and developing a more sophisticated understanding of it than dense = good, you've just parroted the same original point over and over again and completely lost any credibility you may have had.

My information regarding dwellings is from the 2011 census for what it's worth.

No. I did not say dense = good. In fact, I said the exact opposite. If you read my original post, my point was that dense DOES NOT equal good. I was pointing out that subdivisions are NOT mutually exclusive from density. I used Milton as an example of a suburb with lots of subdivisions that is dense.

That should have been the first and last mention of Milton in the entire thread. The thread wasn't about Milton. I was using Milton simply as an example of a place dominated by winding subdivisions that is still high density. It only turned into a discussion about Milton when other people turned it into one AFTER my first post in the thread.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by vid

"Those aren't urban areas they're city limits OMG you don't understand!!!! "

No. That's not what I said, nor is that what I was going to say. Those are your thoughts and yours alone.

Christ almighty. If everyone didn't like my mention of Milton, they could have brought up another example of a suburb with subdivisions that is high density. Milton was an EXAMPLE. There was no reason for a single mention of Milton after post #2 (my first post in the thread).

For anyone who thinks I started this argument, go read my first post in the thread again. What exactly did I say in that post that was "arguing". After that post, there were 3-4 forumers who chose to argue the points I made before I even responded again.

This was my first post in the thread:

Subdivisions and density are not mutually exclusive. Toronto's suburbs have long been more densely built up than the average NA suburbs. Hell, look at the three densest urbanized areas in Canada/USA:

Toronto 7000 ppsm
Milton (also in GTA): 6300 ppsm
Los Angeles: 6100 ppsm

That's right, Milton, which is almost 100% pure suburban sprawl, is the second densest urbanized area in Canada/USA.

How is that being argumentative or combative? The people being argumentative were the ones who took issue with my first post.

you've just parroted the same original point over and over again

I was forced to "parrot" the same original point over and over by people who became combative and argumentative WITH ME. I initially made one post in the thread (the second post). My intention was for that to be my only post in the thread. And it would have had people not started this retarded argument about the specifics of Milton. My point had nothing whatsoever to do with Milton. Milton was being used as an example of high density suburbia with winding subdivisions. Had these others not started arguing a point with me about something which really isn't really related to the thread, I'd have not posted in the thread again.

I mentioned Milton ONCE. That turned into this childish argument about a town which really had nothing to do with the thread topic.

[glowrock]

Hasn't this poor dead horse been beaten enough already? Give it a damned rest already! EVERYONE!!!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[memph]

Blargh, my long post just got lost when I got logged out...

Anyways, this area is not what is officially considered Milton's urban area, but does show that the contiguous built up land is 13.18 square miles.

This area had a population of around 88,000 when the street map the boundaries are based on was last updated (May, 2012), for a density of 6,676ppsm. This includes a very large employment area. I don't think Milton is so much of a commuter suburb. Although 58% of Milton workers commute out of town, 45% of Mississauga workers commute out of town too, despite Mississauga having more jobs than workers, so a fair bit of people must commute into Milton too. If you look at just the density of just the new primarly residential areas, it's around 11,000 ppsm.

With 3 storey back to back townhouses: http://goo.gl/maps/Y7iKR
And 2 storey SFHs with small backyards, no sideyard and front doors sometimes literally steps from the sidewalk: http://goo.gl/maps/kYZZa
Milton feels dense on the ground too.

However, it is autocentric and there are plenty of equally dense neighbourhoods in other Toronto suburbs like Brampton or Mississauga, and in Calgary and Vancouver's suburbs too.

It's probably pretty rare to have that kind of density stateside though. The suburbs brickel listed are all inner suburbs, not outer suburbs like Milton, Mississauga or Langley, BC.

And in response to jeremy haak, I don't thing dwelling density is a better measure than population density. Fifteen 2500sf homes per acre will always have a higher FSI and population density than fifteen 500sf apartments. I don't think Milton's average household size will decrease drastically a couple decades from now.

As for why people move to Milton? Being far away, it's cheaper, and small lots and backyards have been the norm for most of the GTA's history, so people are probably not bothered by that. If they want more space, there are quite a few parks nearby, and the streets are quiet and suitable for games of street hockey or basketball. It's also good to have a certain density to have enough neighbourhood kids to play with, something that estate homes would have a hard time achieving. Plus, estate homes would be too expensive for most families anyways.

As for who moves into apartments in the suburbs? Well they're cheaper than apartments in the city, or houses in the suburbs, often by quite a bit. They are smaller than a house, but if you're a small household you don't need much space. These condos in the suburbs are new and modern, and still a big step up from a run down tower in the park apartment in Toronto's inner suburbs. Suburbs, like every other place have people working in them that belong to a smal household. Also, Mississauga, Markham and Vaughan (which are building these big projects) have more jobs than workers, so living there will shorten the commute for many people, as opposed to living in downtown Toronto. These 3 suburbs are building these high density areas near highways and transit too, so there will be good access to jobs. Plus, I'm sure that there are people who are into the urban lifestyle, but who want to live in a suburban municipality because that's where they work, or have family, or used to live and have friends (ex. downsizing empty nesters).

[THE BIG APPLE]

Peace Village, Vaughan, Ontario

This was all shrubs and grassy plains fifteen years ago.

Peace Village, also known as Ahmadiyya Village, is a Canadian planned community of 260 homes by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community built on a 50-acre (200,000 m2) parcel of land in the suburban community of Maple, Vaughan, Ontario, at a walking distance from the Baitul Islam Mosque. All the nine streets within the neighbourhood are named after the Khalifa’s names and other prominent Ahmadi scholars. The main street is called Ahmadiyya Ave and there is also a public park named “Fazia Mahdi Park”. Residential area south of the mosque also has a public park named after the community; it was named Ahmadiyya Park. The mosque is visible from all the streets.

The village was planned and built by Solmar Homes, a local builder, approved by the City of Vaughan and construction started on April 5, 1999.[1] As of March 2009, there are plans to expand the mosque and build a high school in the surrounding empty fields. Most of the new homes were purchased by members of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

This is long story short: A mosque was built in 1992 in the center of what is today Peace Village. But the occupancy rate was very low, because the mosque-goers weren't near the mosque or didn't have accessible transportation. SO the owners of the mosque worked with the mosque-goers to build houses around the mosque, and sell it to the mosque-goers. So now everyone from the same community (Ahmadiyya) live around the mosque creating the neighborhood in Vaughn called Peace Village.


NY Times

AFTER nine years of living in faculty housing at York University here, Hamid Rahman, was looking for other options. An adjunct professor of Web design, Mr. Rahman valued York’s multicultural mix, yet his housing setup was inconvenient for his religious life. For prayers, he had to visit a multifaith center or join other Muslims in renting a conference room.

That changed in 2003, however, when he moved with his wife, Bilquis, and four children to a home on Bashir Street in Peace Village, an Islamic subdivision of 265 homes in Vaughan, a suburb north of Toronto. The Rahmans paid 350,000 Canadian dollars, or $268,500 at that time, for their four-bedroom detached house with around 3,000 square feet of living space. Conveniently, the home is only a block from a mosque.

Peace Village, originally developed in 1998, began construction of its second phase in June. So far, 53 town houses are under construction, and of these 31 have sold. Most homes have three bedrooms, 1,700 square feet of living space and start at 350,000 Canadian — around $360,000.

An enclave built around a center of faith is not new. For years, Hasidic Jews have settled in upstate New York in towns like Kiryas Joel. Ave Maria, a planned Roman Catholic community near Naples, Fla., will be centered around a Catholic church.

Peace Village is one of the first developments for Muslims in Canada, though it was not initially designed that way. Naseer Ahmad, the founder of the subdivision, is part of the Ahmadiyya Muslim sect, which seeks to understand Islamic doctrine in light of modern developments. This Islamic sect is not universally accepted by other Muslims.

He said that many of the established mosques in Toronto would deny him and other Ahmadiyya Muslims access. In 1992, he raised 4.5 million Canadian dollars in donations from the Ahmadiyya community to buy a 50-acre tomato field, where he built what is now the mosque at the center of Peace Village.

“The mosque was so remote that for many years we could hardly fill one line during prayers,” said Mr. Ahmad, referring to the fact that Muslims pray in rows. He said he worried that he had built in the wrong location.

The land around the mosque was zoned for agricultural use, but in 1994, the zoning changed to residential. At the same time, Mr. Ahmad, then overseeing construction of a sawmill in Nova Scotia, learned of a local developer, the Solmar Development Corporation, that had bought 50 acres adjacent to the mosque.

Mr. Ahmad had the idea to build homes to be marketed exclusively to the Ahmadiyya community. And Benny Marotta, president of Solmar, who was uncertain about how to develop a residential area so near to a mosque, agreed to collaborate with Mr. Ahmad. The developer would pay for the construction, but Mr. Ahmad would manage the process of selling the homes.

Mr. Ahmad worked with architects to design features in the mosque and in the homes to accommodate a Muslim lifestyle, like having industrial-strength vacuums installed in the shoe closets of the mosque to remove odors, as Muslims take off their shoes to pray.

In the houses, kitchens were fitted with powerful fans because most of the community likes to cook aromatic food. And given that Ahmadiyya Muslims are conservative about sex roles, houses were built with two living rooms — one for men, the other for women. Most home buyers in Peace Village have come from Toronto’s community of about 30,000 Ahmadiyyas.

Since the first homes were sold in 1998, prices have risen sharply, as they have elsewhere in the Toronto region. The original homes built in 1998, which are almost twice as large as the ones currently under construction, now sell for around 550,000 Canadian, about $570,000. Buyers pay around 10 percent more than comparable homes in Vaughan because of the “mosque premium,” brokers say.

Houses at Peace Village are sold primarily through word of mouth in the Ahmadiyya community. “Homes come on the market and go very quickly,” said Sebastian Malhotra, a real estate agent in Vaughan with Royal LePage. Peace Village does not keep a waiting list for buyers, but homes are sold within days of going on the market, he said.

Some Canadian Muslims believe that the community’s homogeneity is polarizing. “Diversity is the backbone of Canada and the value of living here is that you get to mix and mingle,” said Raheel Raza, an author who has lectured at York University about the portrayal of Muslims in the media. “Especially after 9/11 when we see more polarization of Muslims, it’s important to be seen as part of the community.”

On the other hand, Mr. Rahman and other residents in Peace Village work outside the community, commuting to Toronto and elsewhere in the region..........

TBC.......

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by memph

This area had a population of around 88,000 when the street map the boundaries are based on was last updated (May, 2012), for a density of 6,676ppsm. This includes a very large employment area. I don't think Milton is so much of a commuter suburb.

It's not a commuter suburb. And these people saying it is probably haven't been there in 15-20 years. My parents live just a few miles away (Erin Mills), and I know several people who live in Milton, so I'm there quite often (unlike some who have probably not been there in years, if ever). There are huge areas of non-residential development in Milton's UA. It's really no different in that regard than any UA that is relatively close to a larger city.

[THE BIG APPLE]

TBC.......



The Mosque








Street



Entrance



Houses



Hospitality Hall and Mosque



------------------------------------------------------------------
More info on the community that occupies this land.

Wikipedia

Alislam

The Persecution

Twitter

Ahmadiyya Times

Facebook

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

Peace Village, Vaughan, Ontario

This was all shrubs and grassy plains fifteen years ago.



This is long story short: A mosque was built in 1992 in the center of what is today Peace Village. But the occupancy rate was very low, because the mosque-goers weren't near the mosque or didn't have accessible transportation. SO the owners of the mosque worked with the mosque-goers to build houses around the mosque, and sell it to the mosque-goers. So now everyone from the same community (Ahmadiyya) live around the mosque creating the neighborhood in Vaughn called Peace Village.


NY Times



TBC.......

Interesting. I've not heard of that before. Were that built in the United States (an Islamic subdivision), FOX News and the other right-wingers would make sure everyone in the country heard about it.

[THE BIG APPLE]

^ Yeah Canada's an awesome country isn't it. In my opinion the best in the world. No Islamo-phobia there, or anywhere in the world except America and Germany (some in the UK).

Here's more info about Peace Village from 360 Visions report on Peace Village, and the Ahmadiyya community.

Ahmadiyya Peace Village Mosque and Community Canada TV Report

• Video Link

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

^ Yeah Canada's an awesome country isn't it. In my opinion the best in the world. No Islamo-phobia there, or anywhere in the world except America and Germany.

I'll take your word for it.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by J. Will

It's not a commuter suburb. And these people saying it is probably haven't been there in 15-20 years. My parents live just a few miles away (Erin Mills), and I know several people who live in Milton, so I'm there quite often (unlike some who have probably not been there in years, if ever). There are huge areas of non-residential development in Milton's UA. It's really no different in that regard than any UA that is relatively close to a larger city.

I am there monthly.

[vid]

Originally Posted by THE BIG APPLE

^ Yeah Canada's an awesome country isn't it. In my opinion the best in the world. No Islamo-phobia there, or anywhere in the world except America and Germany (some in the UK).

Minarets are illegal in Netherlands and Switzerland. France and Quebec have banned traditional Arab clothing. And Canada's Sikh MPs have been victims of Islamophobia quite a few times.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by vid

Minarets are illegal in Netherlands and Switzerland.

Really now?



There are approx. 100 minarets in the Netherlands (more than in Canada I bet). In Switzerland minarets are not "illegal", the building of new ones is banned.

France and Quebec have banned traditional Arab clothing.

And WTF is this about? France has done no such thing! This statement does not even remotely resemble any truth.



Please stop spreading misinformation and ignorance and research before you post or don't post about places you know jack shit about, thanks...

[MolsonExport]

Quebec has done no such thing.