ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Onn]

Originally Posted by UVAsuperman

Anyone else disappointed with the airplane hanger crown of Skyhouse?

I actually like it! That's better than having just another flat topped roof.

[Willeo]

Not sure if the Wal-Mart site is being held to be reconsidered. It's just being held while the DRI finishes its review. There may not be much hope for this one. The City has already made them change the site plan quite a bit since it was first submitted. Public streets through the site and the 3 acre park are the main additions.

Also, I've heard from "folks in the know" that the Mayor is committed to getting Wal-Marts into the City. Looks like there will be another one somewhere near Glenwood Park (not sure though).

[66native]

Originally Posted by Kenn

Lenox needs to embrace the city and build up to Peachtree. This round of improvements is meaningless. The parking lots needs to be buried with retail,commercial,and residential on top. The entire complex should be walkable from all access points on Peachtree and Lenox roads. It's still a 70s style mall surrounded by parking lots. Pretty pathetic.

Has anyone seen the Mitchell St. bridge rebuild featured in the AJC? It's a soulless asphalt redo with industrial chicken wire as a barrier for peds and to protect the rr tracks beneath. Doesn't anyone/ and or agency have a say or even care about the aesthetics of our roads, bridges, and sidewalks? Input on buildings isn't enough when so much of our built environment is made up of streets, etc. The Midtown Alliance has set a great example of just how much pride of place can be accomplished by paying attention to the impact all the land devoted to transit itself has. Doesn't CAP or the city itself have a design protocol?

Kenn, I agree with your comments on Lenox Square 100%.

It seems as though it would be a "no brainer" for Simons to do just as you suggest and build out to the street but apparently we give them too much credit. What an impact that would make. Could you imagine if they actually did build out to Peachtree Rd. and one day the stree-car actually came this far up Peachtree....what a urbane experience that would create.

I would prefer that Simons save the funds that were to be used for this "renovation" (which is truly just "window-dressing") and develop a plan that would eventually give the mall direct pedestrian access to Peachtree, really enhancing the experience of visiting the "mall".

[scania]

Originally Posted by 66native

Kenn, I agree with your comments on Lenox Square 100%.

It seems as though it would be a "no brainer" for Simons to do just as you suggest and build out to the street but apparently we give them too much credit. What an impact that would make. Could you imagine if they actually did build out to Peachtree Rd. and one day the stree-car actually came this far up Peachtree....what a urbane experience that would create.

I would prefer that Simons save the funds that were to be used for this "renovation" (which is truly just "window-dressing") and develop a plan that would eventually give the mall direct pedestrian access to Peachtree, really enhancing the experience of visiting the "mall".

This new design might not give the street retail experience that most of you all want, but I think it looks great. It looks like a very nice modern upgrade to the existing structure. I also think that a lot of people will be wowed by the way it will look from the street. No, it's not street level retail, but it is extremely nice looking. Also, to build out to the street, would require a ton of new tenants and a lot of money just for the additional structure. It's like some of the statements some of you make is simply unrealistic. Simon, as of today is making a smart decision with Lenox Mall. To build out to the street would be absurd.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by scania

This new design might not give the street retail experience that most of you all want, but I think it looks great. It looks like a very nice modern upgrade to the existing structure. I also think that a lot of people will be wowed by the way it will look from the street. No, it's not street level retail, but it is extremely nice looking. Also, to build out to the street, would require a ton of new tenants and a lot of money just for the additional structure. It's like some of the statements some of you make is simply unrealistic. Simon, as of today is making a smart decision with Lenox Mall. To build out to the street would be absurd.

Simon is facing pretty intense and direct competitive pressure from Streets of Buckhead, of course its other mall catty corner Phipps, Ponce City Market which they say garnered a lot of initial attention at this year's ICSC, White Provision and other locales in Atlanta.

The best retailers around including a few not yet in Atlanta, but scouting Atlanta, are more interested in walkable "districts" and street front spaces. Of course I don't know better than Simon how the retail industry is working, but my guess is that:

1) Buckhead is just not nearly walkable enough or pedestrian friendly enough to justify the expense and carrying cost it would require to come to the street

2) Fronting Peachtree along the sidewalk won't do anything for retailers because it is still an indoor mall where you enter at one of a few select entrances and walk inside and enter stores from inside.

3) Retail is still suffering and most retailers are not in expansion mode. It would mean a huge increase to leasable area to come to the street, and it would be difficult if not impossible for Simon to fill that space, especially given its competition now.

4) Part of the reason Lenox works is due to the ability of cars to drive continuously around the mall, which would be impossible if an expansion came to the street (and it would eliminate an ingress/egress, which may not even be acceptable to Atlanta code)


Anyway, the design is ok, but not great. It doesn't look like a lot of money is being spent on the renovation to the front. Simon has to be worried that the center of retail in Atlanta is slowly drifting away from the Peachtree/Lenox corner and moving closer into town. It will probably continue to attract luxury tenants, but it's probably having to buy these tenants in some way to secure them for 10 years and give them greater allowances for their buildouts.

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Simon is facing pretty intense and direct competitive pressure from Streets of Buckhead, of course its other mall catty corner Phipps, Ponce City Market which they say garnered a lot of initial attention at this year's ICSC, White Provision and other locales in Atlanta.

The best retailers around including a few not yet in Atlanta, but scouting Atlanta, are more interested in walkable "districts" and street front spaces. Of course I don't know better than Simon how the retail industry is working, but my guess is that:

1) Buckhead is just not nearly walkable enough or pedestrian friendly enough to justify the expense and carrying cost it would require to come to the street

2) Fronting Peachtree along the sidewalk won't do anything for retailers because it is still an indoor mall where you enter at one of a few select entrances and walk inside and enter stores from inside.

3) Retail is still suffering and most retailers are not in expansion mode. It would mean a huge increase to leasable area to come to the street, and it would be difficult if not impossible for Simon to fill that space, especially given its competition now.

4) Part of the reason Lenox works is due to the ability of cars to drive continuously around the mall, which would be impossible if an expansion came to the street (and it would eliminate an ingress/egress, which may not even be acceptable to Atlanta code)


Anyway, the design is ok, but not great. It doesn't look like a lot of money is being spent on the renovation to the front. Simon has to be worried that the center of retail in Atlanta is slowly drifting away from the Peachtree/Lenox corner and moving closer into town. It will probably continue to attract luxury tenants, but it's probably having to buy these tenants in some way to secure them for 10 years and give them greater allowances for their buildouts.

The center of retail is not moving anywhere. The new mall that us similar to Atlantic Station that is being built in Alpharetta, doesn't mean that the retail is moving out of the city. There has always been retail around different areas of the city. Some people kill me on this forum wanting everything to be in Midtown. I was one of the few that said a few years ago, that people on this forum were crazy thinking that the Midtown Mile was going to put Lenox out of business.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by scania

The center of retail is not moving anywhere. The new mall that us similar to Atlantic Station that is being built in Alpharetta, doesn't mean that the retail is moving out of the city. There has always been retail around different areas of the city. Some people kill me on this forum wanting everything to be in Midtown. I was one of the few that said a few years ago, that people on this forum were crazy thinking that the Midtown Mile was going to put Lenox out of business.

Retail is evolving. Nobody has said Lenox is going out of business and in Atlanta trends emerge reallllyyyyy slowly, but retailers that are desirable to landlords and that are expanding are very seriously looking at intown locations. Again, nobody has even mentioned Midtown Mile. And even within Buckhead I'm sure retailers new to the market or expanding in the market who aren't in Lenox will go to the 300,000 SF of retail as part of streets of Buckhead. Simon has to be spending more money than they used to when they were the only guy in town 3 years ago to attract and renew tenants. It's just a reality and it's happening nearly everywhere. Why do you think Simon bought Prime Outlets? They can't solely rely on their enclosed fortress mall business any more.

Jamestown was able to attract credit retail and big name brands/designers to its White Provision development and you can bet with this past year's momentum there will ensure another good round next year on the westside since retailers like to cluster...more tenants that would have gone to Lenox in the past or would have avoided Atlanta altogether without a "district" like White Provision. The same group is doing Ponce City Market, which will have 400,000 SF of retail space mixed with high end office and residential in an appreciating intown area. That's huge. This same group has retail on Newbury St in Boston, on M St in Georgetown and on Fifth Ave. They have relations with many retailers not yet in Atlanta. Of course with half a million SF of prime intown retail space controlled by this group Simon has to be feeling pressure. Then you have Streets of Buckhead which has serious backing and a prime location. Even the little villages such as that in Inman Park have to become attractive at some point to certain retailers looking to expand or enter the market. And with each year and each new tower, the Midtown Mile does eventually start to get on the radar. Somebody just has to make the first move (I was always hoping it would be Apple - they would kill it and they did consider 12th and Midtown).

The Design District in Miami did not exist 3 years ago. Now it has European brand Scotch and Soda, it stole Cartier and other luxury retailers out of Bal Harbour Shops, and it has all the design studios and arms of the luxury groups (think Armani Home, etc). Things happen much more slowly in Atlanta, but the future of retail is not necessarily the fortress enclosed mall and Simon knows that.

And then Crate & Barrel left Lenox for across the street, leaving a huge vacancy that is very difficult to retenant. Can't wait to see what they put in there, but that probably really hurt them because the next guy is going to want a nice package and there aren't many options available in terms of retailers looking to occupy 2 floors and 15,000 SF. Crate & Barrel left Simon for a local landlord (Healey Weatherholtz) and left a fortress mall for a refurbished strip center made to look a little like street retail. That says a lot.

What also says a lot are sales. It's rumored that sales at Lenox are only around $1,000/SF. I don't know for sure, but I think Phipps is similar and that figure is not impressive for such malls. I don't think it tops $1,500. The top fortress malls with a similar tenant mix in other cities do $2,000-$4,000 a foot.

And then you have to consider these one off stores like big name Ligne Roset in Midtown (dealer just closed) and Poggen Pohl in Terminus. They all want to be in Atlanta in high street areas rather than in the mall, but there isn't yet a high street for them. It will happen with time.

And Avalon up in Alpharetta won't likely have an abundance or even any retailers who are new to Atlanta, just new to North Fulton. There is nothing exciting to me about Avalon, but again GGP has to be feeling a little bit of pressure from Avalon as the two malls serve the same area and are competing for a similar tenant mix (Anthropologie chose Avalon).

And as a Midtown resident (as you are too) I'd at least like to think that at some point down the line retailers will be attracted to Peachtree, wouldn't you?

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Retail is evolving. Nobody has said Lenox is going out of business and in Atlanta trends emerge reallllyyyyy slowly, but retailers that are desirable to landlords and that are expanding are very seriously looking at intown locations. Again, nobody has even mentioned Midtown Mile. And even within Buckhead I'm sure retailers new to the market or expanding in the market who aren't in Lenox will go to the 300,000 SF of retail as part of streets of Buckhead. Simon has to be spending more money than they used to when they were the only guy in town 3 years ago to attract and renew tenants. It's just a reality and it's happening nearly everywhere. Why do you think Simon bought Prime Outlets? They can't solely rely on their enclosed fortress mall business any more.

Jamestown was able to attract credit retail and big name brands/designers to its White Provision development and you can bet with this past year's momentum there will ensure another good round next year on the westside since retailers like to cluster...more tenants that would have gone to Lenox in the past or would have avoided Atlanta altogether without a "district" like White Provision. The same group is doing Ponce City Market, which will have 400,000 SF of retail space mixed with high end office and residential in an appreciating intown area. That's huge. This same group has retail on Newbury St in Boston, on M St in Georgetown and on Fifth Ave. They have relations with many retailers not yet in Atlanta. Of course with half a million SF of prime intown retail space controlled by this group Simon has to be feeling pressure. Then you have Streets of Buckhead which has serious backing and a prime location. Even the little villages such as that in Inman Park have to become attractive at some point to certain retailers looking to expand or enter the market. And with each year and each new tower, the Midtown Mile does eventually start to get on the radar. Somebody just has to make the first move (I was always hoping it would be Apple - they would kill it and they did consider 12th and Midtown).

The Design District in Miami did not exist 3 years ago. Now it has European brand Scotch and Soda, it stole Cartier and other luxury retailers out of Bal Harbour Shops, and it has all the design studios and arms of the luxury groups (think Armani Home, etc). Things happen much more slowly in Atlanta, but the future of retail is not necessarily the fortress enclosed mall and Simon knows that.

And then Crate & Barrel left Lenox for across the street, leaving a huge vacancy that is very difficult to retenant. Can't wait to see what they put in there, but that probably really hurt them because the next guy is going to want a nice package and there aren't many options available in terms of retailers looking to occupy 2 floors and 15,000 SF. Crate & Barrel left Simon for a local landlord (Healey Weatherholtz) and left a fortress mall for a refurbished strip center made to look a little like street retail. That says a lot.

What also says a lot are sales. It's rumored that sales at Lenox are only around $1,000/SF. I don't know for sure, but I think Phipps is similar and that figure is not impressive for such malls. I don't think it tops $1,500. The top fortress malls with a similar tenant mix in other cities do $2,000-$4,000 a foot.

And then you have to consider these one off stores like big name Ligne Roset in Midtown (dealer just closed) and Poggen Pohl in Terminus. They all want to be in Atlanta in high street areas rather than in the mall, but there isn't yet a high street for them. It will happen with time.

And Avalon up in Alpharetta won't likely have an abundance or even any retailers who are new to Atlanta, just new to North Fulton. There is nothing exciting to me about Avalon, but again GGP has to be feeling a little bit of pressure from Avalon as the two malls serve the same area and are competing for a similar tenant mix (Anthropologie chose Avalon).

And as a Midtown resident (as you are too) I'd at least like to think that at some point down the line retailers will be attracted to Peachtree, wouldn't you?

Well as far as Simon buying Prime Outlets, it's a business and corporations buy lots of things just to make more money. I assume you haven't been around in a while, but Simon upgrades his properties every few years. Lenox has been getting upgrades every 3 to 4 years.
As far as retail on Peachtree, yes it would be nice. But for me, it doesn't have to be in Midtown. I'm happy if we had a great retail vibe in Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, or wherever Atlanta has it to offer. I would love for Atlanta to have something that's is on par with a Rodeo Drive, Magnificent Mile, etc., but with its own special character. Am I stuck on it being in Midtown, no I'm not. It would be great to have it anywhere, and I would gladly be a supportive.
Now, please understand that I am happy with what Midtown has to offer, but I am very realistic about the false hype/advertising that is being done in Midtown, mainly because there is a die need for a certain style of presence in the city. When I moved several years ago now from Buckhead to PlazaMidtown, people were selling that Midtown was the place that all the young professionals were moving. Yet on my floor at PM, there was one gay couple in their late twenties, I was at the time in my late twenties, one couple in their forties, and everyone else was in their fifties. This was the trend throughout the entire building. So people can't sell me the bs when comes to Midtown, it's nothing wrong with the area, but I'm sure you know, people sell a fantasy that is simply not true.

[simms3_redux]

Hmm, I moved from Post Biltmore to 1280 West to Mayfair (been in Midtown almost 7 years now). Atlanta's very interesting because a lot of young professionals that come from Atlanta still can't get into the idea of condo living, which is what Midtown has to offer, but I see A LOT of young professionals from elsewhere in Midtown, my building included (myself included). The young profs are moving downtown, Va-Hi obviously, Inman Park, the Westside and lower Buckhead, all surrounding Midtown.

Have lots of classmates from college in Midtown in my building, Spire, 1010 and elsewhere. I recently found out a high school classmate of mine who went to Chapel Hill lives in my building. So there's a mix, but definitely a strong young prof presence. Anyway, retailers do not want 24 year olds like me because we don't have the disposable income. They want 27+ year olds. Some go after the 30 year olds and some go after the 50 year olds so it's better for retailers from that perspective that the buildings arent full of fresh out of college 24 year olds like me.

Also, nobody's trying to sell a fantasy here. People are working hard to make Midtown a destination, and that takes a lot of effort and it is a sales pitch. To get any retailer/restauranteur on Peachtree takes a lot of work, a long negotiation, a lot of analysis, etc. Both parties.

Simon didn't just out of the blue decide to buy Prime. Outlets are a major value-add and expanding segment of retail; they represent growth. Enclosed malls are stagnant at best, and only best in class (fortres) malls are surviving and producing the cash that REITs need on a quarterly or semi-annually basis. Cash is hurt when more money is going into buying deals with tenant buildouts or longer terms (lower rent but security in ability to sell).

If Lenox represented something truly great to Simon, they would spend more money than what's proposed on the mall. They are not spending much money on the exterior and it is rumored they are spending a great deal of money renewing tenants and relocating tenants upon their desires to be relocated. They want to secure their cash flow as much as possible for a long time, but they don't have the money or want to spend the money on "rebranding" the mall or expanding the mall to make it attractive to new tenants because they know they're not going to get that business. Think about it.

There is a shift in retail in Atlanta, and you're right it's not to the Midtown Mile though it could be at some point. It's to walkable intown destinations that offer parking (that aren't malls).

[K-SawDude]

Yeah, at least on the Westside, I'm not seeing any lack of young professionals over here.

I live at White Provision, and while we have a mix of residents of all ages, we definitely have a larger presence of 25-40 year olds than anything else.

[Chris Creech]

On the Lenox renovation thing. It seems I remember as part of the street beautification of Peacthree through there. That little front parking lot was actually slated to become a big park. It seems that would be a great way to redo front of Lenox there. It would be a big setback but at least you have some park use and activities going on. Even if that front footprint didn't change, maybe they could do a denser development across there, with two stories of retail and 6-8 stories of condos on top (sort of like Atlantic Station).

I've always hoped they'd at least build out both Lenox and Phipps a bit towards each other to the streets there at the intersection.

Then you'd only be a short underground tunnel away from a truly huge connected mall. Drop in some moving sidewalks to whisk you back and forth and shoppers could easily do both malls.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by Willeo

Also, I've heard from "folks in the know" that the Mayor is committed to getting Wal-Marts into the City.

THIS is interesting

[simms3_redux]

Construction Update Part 1

Center for Civil and Human Rights

Predictable - nothing going on here. They had a funding covenant to break ground by June. Well they "broke" ground and nothing more. It's disappointing how slowly things happen in Atlanta.




Atlanta Streetcar

Again - nothing really going on here either. This city moves at the pace of a fucking snail and it drives me nuts. What you see below is the only orange cone area along the route and I'm not even sure if all that work is for the Streetcar (are they *still* rerouting utilities??)






Random infill

Small stuff seems to be going on around the intown neighborhoods. And then there is Portman's (the grandson I believe) infill development in Inman Park yet to break ground. That will be larger.










Atlanta Beltline - Eastside Trail tour

AGAIN, love the Beltline, but this damn section was originally supposed to be complete in mid-June and it's still pretty far from complete (and now there is a setback with TSPLOST voted down and Brian Leary and his wife misusing some funds). Loved seeing the people out using it despite the no trespassing signs and property values are sure to skyrocket once it's complete. It will definitely do wonders to connect areas of town, that much is evident. Lots of bars and restaurants in Inman Park front both the Eastside Trail and the Stone Mountain Trail. The appeal of the neighborhood is blatant.









The physical path actually starts at Irwin St, and I noticed here that cars were *VERY* bike friendly and pedestrian friendly which is AWESOME!! Some lady on Juniper literally skimmed my bike as she roared by because I was following another car in the right lane and didn't let her in (she was stuck behind the parked cars in the far right lane). Atlanta is SOOOO bike and pedestrian unfriendly it's nice when there is one intersection or bubble here and there where people actually give a shit about those not roaring around in their cars.











The skate park connects O4W Park and the Beltline.



Frisbee game.



The bridge over Ralph Macgill is still incomplete. Same with bridge over North, but that one is easier to cross.



This lady crossed the rinky dink wooden trustel over Ralph MacGill in 5 inch heels!

















This is a real barrier. I threw my bike over the fence with a jogger's help, but most people here on either side just turned around.









Thus concludes the 2.2 mile Eastside Trail.





I'll have a part II later with Midtown, Buckhead and possibly Emory area construction.

[A-town]

Excellent photo thread simms! I didn't realize that much of the Beltline was complete. It seems like people are really taking well to it.

[stlien]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Construction Update Part 1

Random infill

Small stuff seems to be going on around the intown neighborhoods. And then there is Portman's (the grandson I believe) infill development in Inman Park yet to break ground. That will be larger.

Nice pics. Whats the name of this development? Do you know where I can find more info?

[atlantaguy]

Thanks for the fantastic update, Simms3! The Beltline is truly transformative & exciting.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by stlien

Nice pics. Whats the name of this development? Do you know where I can find more info?

stlien - I believe it's Highland Park, by John Wieland Homes.

Here you go:

http://www.jwhomes.com/FindYourHome/NeighborhoodDetail.aspx?Neighborhoodid=87

[BlueSangha]

As far as the Center for Civil and Human Rights building is concerned, we aren't to see and dirt move until the end of the year.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

stlien - I believe it's Highland Park, by John Wieland Homes.

Here you go:

http://www.jwhomes.com/FindYourHome/NeighborhoodDetail.aspx?Neighborhoodid=87

Actually those are different new townhomes along the Beltline, on the other corner of N Highland and the Beltline.
Those are actually part of the Inman Village townhomes: http://www.inmanvillage.com/child/townhomes.htm
Specifically they are here: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=inman+lan...i=t_Y6UIOxE4Lo8gSy6ICwAw&ved=0CCAQ8gEwAA

The site for Highland Park is directly north in that green area, between East Ave, N Highland, and the Beltline.

[BlindFatSnake]

The Lennox Debate

If you owned acres of land fronting Peachtree Road in front of Lenox Mall, would you ?:
A) build retail to the street - for a better pedestrian experience
B) build several 6-8 story residential buildings
C) rerserve the land for 4-6 skyscrapers in the 20-40 story range (creating an urban gateway to Lennox)

I'd bet my money on the skyscrapers-fronting-skyscrapers urban planning scheme over retail-fronting-retail suburban planning nonsense, any day.

For the naysayers: look at the skyscrapers recently built or previously planned at Phillips and Lenox. Peachtree Road is "Skyscraper Alley".

Retail shopping vs. tall commercial office buildings. LAUGHABLE