The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by Whaler

There is no reason not to believe that Newbrunswick's largest city wouldn't be able to support this store.
This was a deal that just couldn't get done so they walked away?
Maybe they will try again?

That's what he was saying: That with a largely blue-collar population, Princess Auto should do well in Saint John.

Hopefully they'll settle somewhere in the city!

[Fischbob]

The fountain in Harbourfront's public plaza was installed today:


Source: franmenton on Instagram

Also, work is progressing quickly on the apartment building at Technology and Somerset. Framing is already going up!

[SignalHillHiker]

^ Old-fashioned and beautiful. Suits what I can see of the surrounding area beautifully. Well done!

[hebertovich]

Princess Auto is the only place you see men smile and women miserable! unlike every other store men go in with their significant others !! LOL
I can shop there for hours !! I really hope we get one here in Saint John (I know my wife won't come LOL)

[JHikka]

After the fire on Victoria Street, both buildings have been removed.

May 13th:


July 9th:


August 20th:


There are two more fire-stricken buildings about a block away that i'll get photos of soon before they may be taken down as well.

[kwajo]

Well that's sad, I hate empty lots in good urban neighbourhoods.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwajo

Well that's sad, I hate empty lots in good urban neighbourhoods.

There's lots more where that came from.

[DizzyEdge]

Here's a question: is there much of any of an 'urban' scene in Saint John? Like people who live uptown, consider north of highway 1 to be 'way out in the burbs', and whose first comment upon seeing an uptown vacant lot would be "plant a community garden!", and lament the lack of bike lanes and late night 'gastropubs'.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Here's a question: is there much of any of an 'urban' scene in Saint John? Like people who live uptown, consider north of highway 1 to be 'way out in the burbs', and whose first comment upon seeing an uptown vacant lot would be "plant a community garden!", and lament the lack of bike lanes and late night 'gastropubs'.

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you there's a lot more of an urban scene than there was 10 or even 5 years ago. The restaurants and scene around Prince William/Germain have certainly helped spice up the area and nightlife a bit.

I don't think a lot of people consider north of Highway 1 to be the burbs simply because the Hospital and University are out there and are generally frequently visited, along with the North End along Main and Lansdowne being major arteries for traffic. I may have an odd view of this as someone who has grown up in the North End/Millidgeville. Perhaps someone from East or Uptown could comment. I know people who live on the West side much prefer never to have to cross the river if they don't have to. They're very proud of their area. It's going to be ridiculous when they have THEIR own Wal-Mart. A movie theatre would result in a similar situation. A lot of people think it's a hassle to have to drive all the way out east for Costco/Wal-Mart/Movies/Malls/anything. Westsiders feel this way much more than North or Uptown residents.

Personally I only consider Rothesay/Quispamsis/Grand Bay 'the burbs'. Maybe some part of the east side that are out by the airport, but I consider that more rural than suburb. Quispamsis is the absolute definition of a suburb if i've ever seen one, but again that's just me.

There are certainly people around who advocate for bike lanes and community gardens, but given Saint John's incredible blue collar and industrial nature these people are few and far between in the city. Residents in the Valley, i'm only assuming, would be advocating for such things much more.

[philster]

Looks like the Old Wackys location in Parkway Mall will be opening soon as a Pharmasave.

Noticed a banner while driving by today saying "opening soon"

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

I don't think a lot of people consider north of Highway 1 to be the burbs simply because the Hospital and University are out there and are generally frequently visited, along with the North End along Main and Lansdowne being major arteries for traffic. I may have an odd view of this as someone who has grown up in the North End/Millidgeville. Perhaps someone from East or Uptown could comment.

I live Uptown, and I don't consider the area north of the highway to be the burbs, although it's a hassle to get there on foot from Uptown. I do think of Millidgeville as the burbs though - lots of single family homes, big setbacks, segregated uses, etc. make it feel quite suburban to me. The hospital/ UNB don't really change that perception for me - big, suburban style buildings in a sea of parking. If you take one route to the hospital you drive through the woods for a minute and it really feels like leaving the city.

As an urban planner I base my perception of burbs vs. city very much on urban form and mix of uses. So Millidgeville is in the city, but to me looks and feels like a suburb. So I might be an anomaly too.

There are certainly people around who advocate for bike lanes and community gardens, but given Saint John's incredible blue collar and industrial nature these people are few and far between in the city. Residents in the Valley, i'm only assuming, would be advocating for such things much more.

Worked in the Town of Rothesay planning department for a bit and there didn't seem to be too much interest for bike lanes or gardens. In the city, I think one reason for the lack of interest is that Saint John is a small city that isn't very dense. Traffic really isn't that bad, there's usually lots of parking, and the parking is cheap or free to boot. There just isn't the cost or space pressures that work against driving you find in big cities. Uptown is a bit of an exception, but much too small on it's own to really change a lot. Just my thoughts.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

I live Uptown, and I don't consider the area north of the highway to be the burbs, although it's a hassle to get there on foot from Uptown. I do think of Millidgeville as the burbs though - lots of single family homes, big setbacks, segregated uses, etc. make it feel quite suburban to me. The hospital/ UNB don't really change that perception for me - big, suburban style buildings in a sea of parking. If you take one route to the hospital you drive through the woods for a minute and it really feels like leaving the city.

As an urban planner I base my perception of burbs vs. city very much on urban form and mix of uses. So Millidgeville is in the city, but to me looks and feels like a suburb. So I might be an anomaly too.

Perhaps it's because I drive Millidge Avenue to Millidgeville rather than Sam Davis or Foster Thurston. Millidge is all developed so you're never really in the woods. I don't really consider it to be suburbs. It makes sense that Millidgeville feels like the suburbs; that's where all the people who live in Quispamsis now were supposed to move to way back in the day . The Ragged Point/Kennebecasis Drive areas are definitely suburbish but I would argue that the University Avenue area may not be as much, with the large apartment buildings servicing university students, amongst others.

With the recent developments on Technology Drive, that area is definitely getting denser and denser.

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

Worked in the Town of Rothesay planning department for a bit and there didn't seem to be too much interest for bike lanes or gardens. In the city, I think one reason for the lack of interest is that Saint John is a small city that isn't very dense. Traffic really isn't that bad, there's usually lots of parking, and the parking is cheap or free to boot. There just isn't the cost or space pressures that work against driving you find in big cities. Uptown is a bit of an exception, but much too small on it's own to really change a lot. Just my thoughts.

I would actually argue that Saint John is a large city by area and people need to have cars just to get around. It would take me forever to bike from North end to McAllister Mall, for example. It takes a good 10-20 minutes to bike from Millidgeville to Lansdowne Plaza.

I think people who live West would argue about your claim of there being no traffic. With Harbour Bridge down to one lane the highway is backed up to at least Somerset between 4 and 5:30. Douglas Avenue and Chesley Drive also get backed up quite a bit at rush hour. One problem is that Saint John is just not laid out very well for bike use. Smaller streets, hills, and wide, fast avenues. Another problem may be that neither of the bridges are friendly for bike use (Harbour Bridge doesn't allow for pedestrians). If Harbour Passage was opened up a bit more across Reversing Falls Bridge I bet you'd see a lot more bike use. However, try biking through Simms Corner at rush hour and you're going to get hit . If streets were made a bit more friendly for bikes I think a lot would consider it. Saint John doesn't have very many bike-friendly roads.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Interesting table from the Conference Board of Canada listing projected CMA populations by 2035.

I do not know whether or not those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt but if there is any substance in it, Saint John would basically be stangnant for the next 25 years which is somewhat disturbing to say the least.

In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong being a heavy industry blue-collar based economy, but that being said, I think Saint John needs to gear toward the new economy once and for all in order to create a niche. Easier said than done.

The ITs are a step in the right direction.

[JHikka]

That table essentially takes the growth from one census and applies it over the next 25 years, seemingly. I would think that Saint John would grow by more than 0.1% at some point before 2035. The same goes for Moncton. By 2035 i'd expect them to be above 200,000.

Halifax will easily grow above 0.8 to get much higher than 498,000.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

That table essentially takes the growth from one census and applies it over the next 25 years, seemingly. I would think that Saint John would grow by more than 0.1% at some point before 2035. The same goes for Moncton. By 2035 i'd expect them to be above 200,000.

Halifax will easily grow above 0.8 to get much higher than 498,000.

pierremoncton in the Moncton thread has (rightfully) pointed out that the Conference Board numbers are off. The real 2010 CMA population for greater Moncton was 138,000 and the actual annualized growth rate in Moncton as of the 2011 census was 1.94%. Extrapolating from this, the Moncton CMA population in 2035 would be 219,873.

The problem with all this is that current trends are subject to change and are likely not sustainable. Will Moncton maintain a 2% annual growth rate for the next 25 years. Probably not. Will Saint John maintain a paltry 0.1% growth rate over the same time? Again not likely. Things could in fact be significantly better for the port city.

Things can quickly change. Perhaps a megaproject will come Saint John's way, something like the second refinery. Maybe Lepreau 2 will get built. Maybe the port will take off. We have no idea what may be in our future in 10 years time.

I do think that Moncton is in a virtuous circle of growth right now, and I do predict a 2035 population of at least 180,000, probably 190,000 and perhaps at the outer limits of reality 200,000. I also believe though that Saint John has good years ahead of it and that the city will be considerably larger than 130,000 in 2035.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

pierremoncton in the Moncton thread has (rightfully) pointed out that the Conference Board numbers are off. The real 2010 CMA population for greater Moncton was 138,000 and the actual annualized growth rate in Moncton as of the 2011 census was 1.94%. Extrapolating from this, the Moncton CMA population in 2035 would be 219,873.

The problem with all this is that current trends are subject to change and are likely not sustainable. Will Moncton maintain a 2% annual growth rate for the next 25 years. Probably not. Will Saint John maintain a paltry 0.1% growth rate over the same time? Again not likely. Things could in fact be significantly better for the port city.

Things can quickly change. Perhaps a megaproject will come Saint John's way, something like the second refinery. Maybe Lepreau 2 will get built. Maybe the port will take off. We have no idea what may be in our future in 10 years time.

I do think that Moncton is in a virtuous circle of growth right now, and I do predict a 2035 population of at least 180,000, probably 190,000 and perhaps at the outer limits of reality 200,000. I also believe though that Saint John has good years ahead of it and that the city will be considerably larger than 130,000 in 2035.

Well said, you nailed it, I should have known better that the Conference Board had cut corner when they released that report. Pierre is right.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I do think that Moncton is in a virtuous circle of growth right now, and I do predict a 2035 population of at least 180,000, probably 190,000 and perhaps at the outer limits of reality 200,000. I also believe though that Saint John has good years ahead of it and that the city will be considerably larger than 130,000 in 2035.

Honestly i'd be ok with Saint John at 150 and Moncton at 200 by 2035. Anything can happen, though.

The thinking that we can sit around and wait for a megaproject is what is doing us more harm than good. That mindset of waiting for it to happen is what is doing us a disservice. However, in terms of that, there's rumours floating around about the refinery and LNG.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Honestly i'd be ok with Saint John at 150 and Moncton at 200 by 2035. Anything can happen, though.

The thinking that we can sit around and wait for a megaproject is what is doing us more harm than good. That mindset of waiting for it to happen is what is doing us a disservice. However, in terms of that, there's rumours floating around about the refinery and LNG.

I think people are complacent about Irving and the jobs they provide. While people talked about a rumored second refinery, the reality was that oil from Alberta and North Dakota shipped by rail is saving the refinery from closure. Not something you hear about in the news!! Even a multinational ExxonMobil is closing the Dartmouth refinery. People have the attitude it could never happen here and that is not good. LNG is operating at 25% capacity and prices are rock bottom for wholesale natural gas - if they didn't land that tax deal it would be mothballed today IMO. Even Repsol wants to dump it's 75% share in it - not a vote of confidence!! Saint John needs to diversify and attract quality decent paying jobs to grow ie. banking back end services. We need to attract diverse people too - much of he gentrification you see happening in the uptown and south end are by gay and lesbians ( who tend to have more money ). They are attracted to coastal communities - I say place targeted ads selling Saint John to them - just look what they have done for neighborhoods in big cities like SOHO/Chelsea (NYC), Church Street (Toronto) and Wilton Manors (Miami/Fort Lauderdale) to name a few. Guess we should think outside the box.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I think people are complacent about Irving and the jobs they provide. While people talked about a rumored second refinery, the reality was that oil from Alberta and North Dakota shipped by rail is saving the refinery from closure. Not something you hear about in the news!! Even a multinational ExxonMobil is closing the Dartmouth refinery. People have the attitude it could never happen here and that is not good. LNG is operating at 25% capacity and prices are rock bottom for wholesale natural gas - if they didn't land that tax deal it would be mothballed today IMO. Even Repsol wants to dump it's 75% share in it - not a vote of confidence!! Saint John needs to diversify and attract quality decent paying jobs to grow ie. banking back end services. We need to attract diverse people too - much of he gentrification you see happening in the uptown and south end are by gay and lesbians ( who tend to have more money ). They are attracted to coastal communities - I say place targeted ads selling Saint John to them - just look what they have done for neighborhoods in big cities like SOHO/Chelsea (NYC), Church Street (Toronto) and Wilton Manors (Miami/Fort Lauderdale) to name a few. Guess we should think outside the box.

Being a member of the demographic noted I would agree with some of these statements - we were part of the gentrification of Cabbagetown in downtown Toronto - another area of 19th cetury victorians but the BIG difference between here and Toronto is the influx of people returning to the city centre from the burbs - due to empty nest syndrome, horrific traffic etc. Just saying we're "gay friendly" won't change a thing - there still has to be jobs and industry to come to.

We have to make people from the KV WANT to live Uptown- the new condos and the night scene is certainly a huge step in that direction but until the City sorts out its finances and we have a clear economic turnaround - locally and nationally - I beleive we will continue to sputter along. Saint John could be a big Tech community - just look around! We're affordable, on the coast and a great place to live....

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I think people are complacent about Irving and the jobs they provide. While people talked about a rumored second refinery, the reality was that oil from Alberta and North Dakota shipped by rail is saving the refinery from closure. Not something you hear about in the news!! Even a multinational ExxonMobil is closing the Dartmouth refinery. People have the attitude it could never happen here and that is not good. LNG is operating at 25% capacity and prices are rock bottom for wholesale natural gas - if they didn't land that tax deal it would be mothballed today IMO. Even Repsol wants to dump it's 75% share in it - not a vote of confidence!! Saint John needs to diversify and attract quality decent paying jobs to grow ie. banking back end services. We need to attract diverse people too - much of he gentrification you see happening in the uptown and south end are by gay and lesbians ( who tend to have more money ). They are attracted to coastal communities - I say place targeted ads selling Saint John to them - just look what they have done for neighborhoods in big cities like SOHO/Chelsea (NYC), Church Street (Toronto) and Wilton Manors (Miami/Fort Lauderdale) to name a few. Guess we should think outside the box.

You're right about people being complacent, but I don't think the concern over the refinery is warranted. My understanding is that the one in Halifax is being closed because of its age and it costing too much to upgrade. As for LNG, that isn't as surprising as gas prices are at a record low. In spite of that though, there's an ever-increasing push toward moving non-renewable energy generation away from oil and coal and toward nat-gas. Sooner or later demand will pick up with supply and prices will rise to a more profitable level.