Calgary Public Transit II

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Very interesting read... thanks for assembling this information. I don't know how difficult it would be to do, but is it possible for you to include how these various extension projects have been funded?? I find when it comes to conversations about building the SE LRT and the NC LRT, it becomes a lot easier to advocate for the projects when other people realize just what other cities have been able to accomplish as far as transit projects go. However the next question in those discussions is usually "well how can we pay for it?". It would be very interesting to see the various funding models other cities are using to fund their transit projects and discussing how they might be applied here in Calgary.

Great job Frink! I've been wanting exactly this. Please keep them coming. Also, is anyone aware of a regularly updated publication that keeps track of these major transit projects? If so, I'd sure be interested in reading. The best I've come across are one-off analyses by cities looking to develop their own systems. Please let me know if anyone has suggestions of journals, mags, websites, etc.

Also, I agree with outoftheice, I'd like to see what kinds of funding, grants, taxes, policies, etc other cities have used.

[Calalb]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Using the Dam would make a lot of sense for a SW BRT route, currently there is a large pipe across the dam which have to be relocated due to width requirements. The dam was used for vehicle traffic until the late 70's. My Dad said that there was a traffic light at either end of the dam because the width of the road was not wide enough for two cars to travel at the same time. He also said that the dam was becoming structurally unsound due to the vibration the cars caused and that was the primary reason that the city ceased to allow vehicle traffic, but then again he could be mistaken.

In my opinion having the SW BRT going across the dam and using 14th street would be faster and attract a higher ridership than going to MRU and travelling via Crowchild trail.

On that note, I don't think the SW BRT should stop at MRU. A stop at MRU would take an extra 5-10 min longer to reach downtown and detract SW commuters from taking the BRT and instead use the LRT. The planned BRT station at Heritage or Rockyview would be a sufficient transfer point for MRU students.

Here is an interesting old photo of Glenmore Dam looking north from the mid fifties.(from glenbow archives)

[DizzyEdge]

and today


http://www.panoramio.com/user/1198887


http://www.panoramio.com/user/40218

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Using the Dam would make a lot of sense for a SW BRT route, currently there is a large pipe across the dam which have to be relocated due to width requirements.
<snip>

In my opinion having the SW BRT going across the dam and using 14th street would be faster and attract a higher ridership than going to MRU and travelling via Crowchild trail.

On that note, I don't think the SW BRT should stop at MRU. A stop at MRU would take an extra 5-10 min longer to reach downtown and detract SW commuters from taking the BRT and instead use the LRT. The planned BRT station at Heritage or Rockyview would be a sufficient transfer point for MRU students.

The line proposed has two primary goals; an attractive commuter service from the SW (i.e. the communities between the Glenmore Reservoir and Fish Creek) to the downtown, and a high-quality connection to the MRU area, which includes an expanding corporate campus and a major future development in the Currie Barracks area. I wouldn't be surprised if these two transit markets were of similar size, especially in the long run; the SW communities aren't growing any more.

I don't think that going down 14th St would be any faster, given that it runs through residential neighbourhoods all the way. (Google Maps gives 11 minutes from MRU to downtown via Crowchild, and 16 from the dam causeway via 18th/14th St. Note that the BRT uses buses on the shoulders of Crowchild, so the traffic is much less of an issue.) You add back all of the time you save in not going out of your way to the MRU area, and I'd suggest that (in terms of catchment) the 26th and 33rd Ave stops are better on Crowchild, while 17th is a little better on 14th St.

Shaving two minutes off a half-hour run won't double the ridership, but skipping one of the two primary destinations will cut the ridership in half.

The dam may be an interesting way of avoiding congestion on the causeway, although given that huge pipe, there could easily be loads of technical issues around that. Any solution would need to have the pathway remain; it's a key north-south link and river crossing in the ped/bike network.

A solution that may make sense -- although it would be more complex for riders -- would to have half of the buses in the peaks run as "express" in one direction, skipping MRU on the northbound direction in the AM peak, and in the southbound direction in the PM. That would shave time off the SW-CBD commuter journey, but would keep the service on the CBD-MRU connection. But that means effectively 20 minute headways on SW-MRU journeys, which is hardly a BRT level of service. (If there was 7.5 min service, maybe this would work a little better.)

[93JC]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Using the Dam would make a lot of sense for a SW BRT route,...

In my opinion having the SW BRT going across the dam and using 14th street would be faster and attract a higher ridership than going to MRU and travelling via Crowchild trail.

Using a 50 km/h two-lane residential road with four sets of traffic lights (14th between 17th and 38th Ave SW) will be faster than an 80 km/h freeway?



I think a BRT going across the dam and up 14th St is a terrible idea. Why would you want to go up 14th St in the first place given it's a 50 km/h residential road? And even if the natural gas pipeline going across the dam was relocated to accommodate a new road how is it going to get from 56th Avenue to 38th? The nearest existing N-S street is 19th, which is only 30 km/h between 54th and 51st Avenue... Do you propose building a new road from the water treatment plant through Glenmore Athletic Park to 50th Avenue and hooking up with 14A Street? Or building an entirely new road from the water treatment plant through Glenmore Athletic Park and River Park to 38th Avenue? Good luck with getting that through.


Frankly I think the entire idea of a BRT route from "the deep southwest" to downtown is pointless. If I lived in Evergreen I'd take a bus to Somerset and take the train way the hell before I'd sit on a bus going up 14th Street.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Frankly I think the entire idea of a BRT route from "the deep southwest" to downtown is pointless. If I lived in Evergreen I'd take a bus to Somerset and take the train way the hell before I'd sit on a bus going up 14th Street.

I agree with most of what you say (Didn't know it was an NG pipeline on the dam... boy that would be a bad one to rupture.)

But the SW BRT is going to the communities in what might be called the "mid southwest", i.e. Woodbine, Woodlands, Cedarbrae, Braeside, Palliser, Pimp Hell, and Oakridge; west of 14th St, S of the reservoir and north of Fish Creek. These communities require a fairly lengthy feeder bus connection to the S LRT; this is also the most heavily-used leg of the LRT. A somewhat more direct bus to the downtown could be attractive enough to take traffic off the LRT, which would be sort of an effective capacity improvement. The BRT would have improvements to 14th St (S of the Elbow river) that would increase bus speed on the corridor. Here's the functional design report.

As I mentioned, the other primary goal is service to the MRU area; secondary goals are the Rockyview hospital and areas along Crowchild like Marda Loop.

[O-tacular]

I had no idea they were completely re-doing chinook station. Crazy. Will other older stations in the south get re-made? Seems odd to me that for such a prominent stop it's so low profile in both size and appearance. I like it, I'm just not sure i like it for that stop.

[93JC]

Pump Hill is "Pimp Hell", eh?

I must admit I hadn't seen the proposed bus lanes along 14th south of Glenmore, which look pretty good, but I'm still skeptical about the ultimate effectiveness of a BRT route serving these communities

As it stands now the route north of Crowchild seems to mimic the #18 Lakeview bus almost exactly, even down to the stops. Granted I haven't taken that bus since the bus-only lanes along the shoulders of Crowchild were opened but I can tell you from personal experience that that was a painfully slow bus. Too many stops, frankly.

I used to take the #63 Lakeview Express, with no stops between 6th Ave @ 9th St and Crowchild @ 54th Ave, and I found even THAT to be often unbearably slow.

If the bus route is for the purpose of relieving pressure on the LRT line and trips generated at Chinook, Heritage, Southland and Anderson stations specifically... hell, I wouldn't even bother with the stops anywhere north of 50th Ave.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I had no idea they were completely re-doing chinook station. Crazy. Will other older stations in the south get re-made? Seems odd to me that for such a prominent stop it's so low profile in both size and appearance. I like it, I'm just not sure i like it for that stop.

Me too. Shockingly smaller scale compared to the old one. The new design looks like a slightly improved 39th Ave Station. I can see why they wanted to remove the pedestrian overpass--it will definitely help disabled users access the platform--but the idea of at-grade pedestrian crossing doesn't sit well with me.

I wonder if the city has ever considered underpasses akin to some of the ones in Edmonton (e.g. Stadium Station). I thought they were a much more elegant solution than building up.

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

I had no idea they were completely re-doing chinook station. Crazy. Will other older stations in the south get re-made? Seems odd to me that for such a prominent stop it's so low profile in both size and appearance. I like it, I'm just not sure i like it for that stop.

Agreed, it's a decent design but very bare-bones for one of the busiest and most important stations in the C-Train network. I think there is way to much traffic at this station to have a sole level crossing - it's going to be crowded as hell. It would have been nice if they could co-ordinate the renovation with the planned +15 to Chinook Centre, but I don't know if that is still in the works. It also looks like they are removing the access to the south end of the platform from the parking lot - if so that will be a major PITA for park n' riders.

Why is it that NW line gets "cadillac" station designs (dual escalators, nice spacious buildings with actually adequate heating etc.), but the south line gets the shaft?

[DizzyEdge]

Re: Frinkprof's posting

I'd be most curious how much these other projects cost per km, to compare to WLRT

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

Why is it that NW line gets "cadillac" station designs (dual escalators, nice spacious buildings with actually adequate heating etc.), but the south line gets the shaft?

Necessity. I think that the NW stations would be lower-profile too (they'd gladly save the money), but unfortunately they can't be, because they're in the median of a freeway. I think the station at Tuscany will be about as barebones as you'll get up there.

[1ajs]

so what bus's go to the ctrain from the airport?

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

so what bus's go to the ctrain from the airport?

100 goes to McKnight Westwinds
300 goes downtown

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

Necessity. I think that the NW stations would be lower-profile too (they'd gladly save the money), but unfortunately they can't be, because they're in the median of a freeway. I think the station at Tuscany will be about as barebones as you'll get up there.

Tuscany Station will have no escalators, but will have two elevators.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

100 goes to McKnight Westwinds
300 goes downtown

so the 100 is what i want to get the lrt station i havent taken the bus's at the airport in 12yrs

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

so the 100 is what i want to get the lrt station i havent taken the bus's at the airport in 12yrs

That's the one you want, yup.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

That's the one you want, yup.

sweet txs

[MalcolmTucker]

The direct to downtown bus should save you a load of time if you're going to Mission at any time outside of rush hour (even then likely better or a wash).

[1ajs]

i get in at 8:20